PC This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers.

[Roland]

Just my 2 cents: TFP is largely disengaged from the community at this point.

No, the developers fully understand and are aware of your complaints. They are also aware of and fully understand the complaints of another large segment of the community that I know you are completely disengaged from: The console community. 
 

The developers made promises to all their customers and are working on fulfilling those promises. There is the  promise that the full version of this game would be available on consoles and able to connect to the same servers that PC gamers utilize. They are working towards that and it has created a bit of a  construction zone where servers are concerned. That is temporary in the grand scheme of things. 
 

The problem a lot of players have, including this streamer, is that despite claiming that they understand Early Access, deep down they just emotionally and philosophically don’t. If they did, then they would realize that TFP plans to have strong networking code that will be able to handle cross-platform play and their first assumption would be: “Ah…they’re working on this right now and obviously they aren’t finished”. That’s how someone reacts when they understand how it all works. People who don’t get it freak out and automatically assume that what was released MUST be the intended full version. Of course they do, because they just don’t understand playing a game that is indev. Not truly. 
 

Same goes for people who think cuts and removals are a sign of disaster. People who actually get it know that they are actually a normal and natural part of the editing and refining process. 
 

The netcode is under construction. There are necessary changes happening that show that TFP are engaged with ALL of their customers. The current network status is not the intended final product. If it is unbearable to play under current conditions then by all means take a break and keep checking back. 
 

 

[Matt115]

[No message]

 

[Jost Amman]

The learning by looting and the changes to jars don´t look like keeping us busy, it looks llke it´s just gonna be more RNG.

Quite the opposite, IMO.

Now you must hunt schematics and rely on RNG while looting (or RNG hoping they'll appear in the trader's list).

Now you must rely heavily on RNG to get parts to finally craft something.

In A21 you'll invest in something, and you'll be sure that in due time you'll be able to craft useful gear, and have a higher chance of finding the needed parts.

As for the jars, you'll need to loot/buy more to compensate the fact you won't get them back anymore, so, in a sense, we will be more "busy".

Now, after a few empty jars drops, you're set with water for the rest of the game.

 

[Jost Amman]

If players of large MP servers love the game as much as they claim then they will be back when everything is done and running well again. That is what I see time and time again— people who for one reason or another had to shelve the game for a year or more due to development issues come back and absolutely love playing again when those issues end. Every alpha release has been bigger than the previous ones precisely because this game draws people back in addition to attracting new. 

I agree that downtime after some changes is to be expected if something goes wrong.

But IMO The Fun Pimps could better handle those transitions and address some of the more urgent, more disrupting bugs, in one or two Hotfix patches.

That alone would be a huge relief to part of the community. BTW, I'm talking as someone who doesn't like to play MP at all, but on Steam I've seen plenty of people upset about the server search changes (bugged), connections issues both with EAC and EOS, and still, after so many years, disappearing vehicles in MP.

The net code is under construction. There are necessary changes happening that show that TFP are engaged with ALL of their customers. The current network status is not the intended final product. If it is unbearable to play under current conditions, then by all means take a break and keep checking back. 

I get it... but, is there a possibility to at least have a "basically" working version of the current net code iteration? I'm telling you, there's a lot of people on Steam who've been having legitimate problems and complaining, and my suggestion to TFP is to at least handle some basic HotFix to address the more glaring bugs.

It would be good "PR" on TFP's part.

But... honestly : how much you were complaining about water? i didn't see people complaing about that. i Saw people about more zombie , vehicles, etc. that's not only models but content too - that's why people love games where there is tons of enemy types guns, vehicles etc. this is content and this keep player busy - i have shotgun so i want to get diffrent type of shotgun to check .

Nobody was complaining, but honestly, everyone knew water is a non-issue.

Sometimes you don't know you miss something until you really have it.

Well.. RNG is good thing in post apo game but... if it done well - that's why old gun making system was so good in my opinion

It's all about personal taste, IMO. Some people like RNG, and others simply completely hate having to be subject to RNG mechanics.

 

[Jost Amman]

Yes is in development and change from horror into mad max - The forest - things was changing but still almost this same but just better, Factorio? this same spirit.  Project zomboid? this same spirit. Here we have 180* changes. Yes, technology changes and... this mean nothing - project zomboid is good example about that.

The problem is that those are YOUR impressions over how you see the different stages the game is going through. To really know what the game is, you should wait for the final release. All the intermediate steps account for nothing, since they're just strokes of a brush on an incomplete painting. I'm not joking either, it's a real comparison since many times paintings have been found to have different "layers" with changes that were done by the author while the work was still in progress.

Imagine how much easier it is to change a "software" compared to a painting!

But the thought process sometimes seems to be similar.

I like TFP - but... until they will finish 7DTD it will take 3-4 more years. you wrote their 2 new games.  What we know about them? nothing. And how many years will be waiting for next games? 5-6 to get first annoucment? This is a lot.  Yes 5 years is a lot of time. who know what's will happens until this time so that's why people are raging. 

If they released 7DTD 6 years ago and now producing another game.... we would have now 2 their games right? Do you exepect any annoucment about their new game in this year? i think not

People need to learn to live their lives.

If all you (not you specifically, I mean people) have in your life is to wait for a game to be finished, the problem is nor the game, neither the devs. 

 

[Jost Amman]

And sometimes this happens - i think you read news about games. But often you can hear about some leaks, rumors etc. then something is going wrong with game, game is released is medicore/bad and after X years there is new information about that : problems with publisher, lack of one vision, release term, shareholder etc.

"Hearsay", exactly as @Jugginator said.

 

[Roland]

Because often is sign of disaster Roland...  i know a lot of game that a lot of things were cutted/changed during development and game became bad/medicore/ good enough to get good reviews and be forgotten. 

wut?  Often?? Give examples. How do you make a game be mediocre enough to get good reviews?  If a game has mostly good reviews in the thousands and you think it’s just mediocre then most likely the game is good but just not your cup of tea. I think you are unable to distinguish between a good game that you happen to not enjoy and a bad game. Then again, you DO predict the weather (and earthquakes) with a rock hanging from a pole…
 

When cuts are made in any creative endeavor it is to refine and clean up the final version. No creator makes cuts just to be done and try and get their game mediocre enough to somehow still get mostly positive reviews. If a dev team wanted to abandon a game they would more likely leave the bloat in and call it done rather than take the time to edit. 
 

I get it... but, is there a possibility to at least have a "basically" working version of the current net code iteration?

There is a basic working version right now. Most people who play with 8 people or less are not having major issues. That’s a basic working system. Making a server work for 10-50 people would be advanced. 
 

Why no quick and simple hot fix?  Because EOS is Epic and our developers are reliant upon their developers to a degree to solve some issues. It is the same with EAC and Unity issues. There are times when we can’t just hotfix something that requires them to make adjustments from their end. 
 

There have been times in the past where the ONLY answer was to tell people to turn off EAC until the issue could be worked out with their developers. 
 

TFP have always been quick to hotfix issues they could. Why would they suddenly withhold a hotfix unless….there wasn’t one?

 

[Matt115]

Nobody was complaining, but honestly, everyone knew water is a non-issue.

Sometimes you don't know you miss something until you really have it.

It's all about personal taste, IMO. Some people like RNG, and others simply completely hate having to be subject to RNG mechanics.

Well... that's a problem. If this game was dunno.... "fallout-like" where 99% world is radiactive etc. i would agree. But - probably pipes still are working,  at least well ( i mean hole with water ). so water shoudn't be problem but food - most cans after X years should be rotten - maybe only in MRE would left. So if something should lack - it should be food not water.

Still this is post apo. Ofc you can expect some things - guns in gun shop or in military base, medicines in hospitals etc. but in typical car what you would find? mostly clothes, tools and junk  (teddy bears, pictures, old cash ). Well if you radomly would find something good... well this will be just luck that you found a truck with military stuff. 

The problem is that those are YOUR impressions over how you see the different stages the game is going through. To really know what the game is, you should wait for the final release. All the intermediate steps account for nothing, since they're just strokes of a brush on an incomplete painting. I'm not joking either, it's a real comparison since many times paintings have been found to have different "layers" with changes that were done by the author while the work was still in progress.

Imagine how much easier it is to change a "software" compared to a painting!

But the thought process sometimes seems to be similar.

People need to learn to live their lives.

If all you (not you specifically, I mean people) have in your life is to wait for a game to be finished, the problem is nor the game, neither the devs. 

Maybe not such imppression but : visual. 

i will put you here this:

http://ocs-pl.oktawave.com/v1/AUTH_2887234e-384a-4873-8bc5-405211db13a2/spidersweb/2016/07/7-Days-to-Die-18.jpg

It doesn't looks you familiar? both of them looks like typical horror game from similiar period. Well 7dtd is newer that L4D1 but still looks very similiar.

Well about paiting... hm in modern times yeah but in older periods? if you would see strokes of  rich woman... you could be sure that that will be rich woman. 

I think nobody in 2014 was thinking that this game will in produce for so long time.  I think we both can agree about that. Except "non" EA games - every of them have similiar "spirit". Factorio have similiar artstyle, this same thing with project zomboid, No man sky looks still like... "toys" ( idk how to  descibte this better),  Medieval Dynasty like... "positive" medieval. But 7dtd done such big change. And nobody would excepct that - if something looks like others games ( in this period! - things change a lot in +- after PS4 released era) ,  you play in this ( 7dtd was looking like L4D1 with slow zombie and sandbox ) , this will be keep. 

Honetly - i think you like how 7dtd changes. That's is okay. I undestand - but if this game change in other way : very dark, hard , "edgy"  then probably you would saying that you expect something diffrent and i would similiar thing like "yes but technology changed - you can watch how much brutal  another horrors games are. Few years ago it would not possible".

To your last point : i will not write anything about that because this would be a little bit... controversial. if you want write on priv about that

 

[Maharin]

Reviled reviewer receives rating reflecting respected results, regrettably ransoming reality.

That might be enough R's to turn me into a pirate.  Which brings me to the point of my post... we need pirate zombies in 7DTD.

 

[Jost Amman]

Well... that's a problem. If this game was dunno.... "fallout-like" where 99% world is radiactive etc. i would agree. But - probably pipes still are working,  at least well ( i mean hole with water ). so water shoudn't be problem but food - most cans after X years should be rotten - maybe only in MRE would left. So if something should lack - it should be food not water.

Still this is post apo. Ofc you can expect some things - guns in gun shop or in military base, medicines in hospitals etc. but in typical car what you would find? mostly clothes, tools and junk  (teddy bears, pictures, old cash ). Well if you radomly would find something good... well this will be just luck that you found a truck with military stuff. 

So, basically, you're saying that there should be no water survival elements in the game, because you think the water is ok?

Well, ok... I guess. But you think like a player, and the developers need to think like developers.

Maybe not such imppression but : visual. 

i will put you here this:

IMO, 7D2D looks WAY better than L4D1!

I think nobody in 2014 was thinking that this game will in produce for so long time.  I think we both can agree about that. Except "non" EA games - every of them have similiar "spirit". Factorio have similiar artstyle, this same thing with project zomboid, No man sky looks still like... "toys" ( idk how to  descibte this better),  Medieval Dynasty like... "positive" medieval. But 7dtd done such big change. And nobody would excepct that - if something looks like others games ( in this period! - things change a lot in +- after PS4 released era) ,  you play in this ( 7dtd was looking like L4D1 with slow zombie and sandbox ) , this will be keep. 

That's exactly why entering Early Access on Steam was the right move from The Fun Pimps.

If you have a vision of the game you would like to create and play, but you don't have every detail clear, and you don't know how much time it'll take, then EA is definitely the right "publishing format" you need. The problem is not that development has been kinda slow, the problem is that most players buy an EA game and are delusional about their expectations.

There are out there REAL scammers that exploit the Early Access format to basically steal money from people, but there are also developers, like TFP, who are true to their word, and have ALWAYS been working on the game year after year, no matter what.

 

[Matt115]

"Hearsay", exactly as @Jugginator said.

i will replayed  below with roland fragment

wut?  Often?? Give examples. How do you make a game be mediocre enough to get good reviews?  If a game has mostly good reviews in the thousands and you think it’s just mediocre then most likely the game is good but just not your cup of tea. I think you are unable to distinguish between a good game that you happen to not enjoy and a bad game. Then again, you DO predict the weather (and earthquakes) with a rock hanging from a pole…
 

When cuts are made in any creative endeavor it is to refine and clean up the final version. No creator makes cuts just to be done and try and get their game mediocre enough to somehow still get mostly positive reviews. If a dev team wanted to abandon a game they would more likely leave the bloat in and call it done rather than take the time to edit. 
 

Ok . Witcher - Metropolis city version( yep Cd project wasn't first),  Silent hill downpour, DL2,  Aliens colonial marine, Gothic 3, CoD ww2 , Total war attila etc.

But i will focus only on SH downpour - a lot of things was changed because... no bigger reason,  so... this game was just medicore. Not totaly bad but not good. @Jost Amman i could send you a video about  interview with dev of this game but this wiould be in polish

Btw: medicore games with good reviews : Sniper Elite 3 ,  Mad Max, Painkiller HD , Aliens Vs. Predator (2010). I will focus on last one because i remember review from CD-Action. in short : good game to just finish and forget.  Ofc if you mean Steam - there is only like or dislike.  But  this game get medicore (except MM because i didn't check English sites about that game) reviews

Games are like food - you have cheap street food , fast food, restaurant etc.  -  some games are like Mc's cheesburger - good. Just good. Nothing to complain. but you will eat and you will forget about that games. Some food are so bad that you will be remember for years and some food is so good that you will remember.  

 

[Jost Amman]

@Jost Amman i could send you a video about  interview with dev of this game but this wiould be in polish

You're missing the point. Everybody talks about development in general... these are The Fun Pimps, not the "average developer" or any of those developers you cited. We even had the motto "In The Pimps We Trust" for a reason! 

It's like trying to prove that Polish people are liars because Matt115 is a liar (joking!), you can't judge Piotr based on how Mat115 is!  :heh:

 

[Matt115]

So, basically, you're saying that there should be no water survival elements in the game, because you think the water is ok?

Well, ok... I guess. But you think like a player, and the developers need to think like developers.

No no no. I mean water is "early " stage problem. Food early/mid. You know survive rule First water second food. In MGS you can easy get water but food will be problem for long time

IMO, 7D2D looks WAY better than L4D1!

Now looks better but in 2014 would be looking similiar if you would check on other games until 2015.  Well 7dtd looks much better that F.E.A.R.2 but 7dtd is still in development while was released on 2009. I give this games as example i don't remember more "city with semi opened places in USA style"

That's exactly why entering Early Access on Steam was the right move from The Fun Pimps.

If you have a vision of the game you would like to create and play, but you don't have every detail clear, and you don't know how much time it'll take, then EA is definitely the right "publishing format" you need. The problem is not that development has been kinda slow, the problem is that most players buy an EA game and are delusional about their expectations.

There are out there REAL scammers that exploit the Early Access format to basically steal money from people, but there are also developers, like TFP, who are true to their word, and have ALWAYS been working on the game year after year, no matter what.

Btw Well... i'm very interested how will be looking one game.  I mean if this will be still in development or not.  I can write on priv about that.

Yes, but there were words "survival horror" : i think if you would ask someone in 2014 about horror game he would say - f.e.a.r.2 , resident evil, Silent hill etc.  Now it will be Fnaf ,poppy playtime etc. Yes this changes but if you use phase "star wars stormtrooper"  in 2000 everyone would think about...  orginal trilogy stormtoopers. Now? Well there are clone stormtroopers, first order stormtroopers etc.

 

[Jost Amman]

No no no. I mean water is "early " stage problem. Food early/mid. You know survive rule First water second food. In MGS you can easy get water but food will be problem for long time

I disagree, water survival can't just be an issue for the first 15 minutes in the game.

 

[Roland]

but if this game change in other way : very dark, hard , "edgy"  then probably you would saying that you expect something diffrent and i would similiar thing like "yes but technology changed - you can watch how much brutal  another horrors games are. Few years ago it would not possible".

This is something I often don’t understand about your posts. The game in A20 is darker and edgier than it ever has been. The zombie models are grosser than they were with dangling eyeballs and such. There are now more gruesome remains and gore piles than ever before. Decapitations used to be just “pink mist” and now they are moving to grosser actual decapitations with the head popping off and a more horrific neck wound left behind. A21 is going even further with this with Glen-like eyes pooping out of sockets and caved in heads showing brain matter. 
 

There is spooky music now and sound effects that inspire dread at least the first time you hear them…lol. 
 

The wasteland cities are scarier especially if feral mode is on. Doing a quest in a wasteland downtown POI is much scarier now than ever before. 
 

There are more locations that are more horrific like sewers and sub terrain caves where you are confined in tight quarters if a wandering horde comes by and cuts off your escape routes.

7 Days to Die may not be as brutal and grossly over the top as other titles but I 

am always at a loss whenever I read your many posts that the game is less horrific now than it used to be. Maybe you feel it can only be Mad Max like OR horror like but not both. To me it seems like a more horrific mad max post apoc world than Mad Max itself. 
 

I know you’ll say the lack of variety spoils it for you but there is more variety now than there ever was in the past. Maybe not on specific zombie faces though. Not all past zombies got the upgrade. 

 

[Matt115]

You're missing the point. Everybody talks about development in general... these are The Fun Pimps, not the "average developer" or any of those developers you cited. We even had the motto "In The Pimps We Trust" for a reason! 

It's like trying to prove that Polish people are liars because Matt115 is a liar (joking!), you can't judge Piotr based on how Mat115 is!  :heh:

I wasn't mean  TFP. Jugginator told very general so - i was writing about that not connected with TFP.  If someone told that  people are stealing cars i don't mean that people in this city stealing cars. 

I gave example how things looks in game industry  - i'm doing Master degree so i had to write about stuff like that. 

If he would write "you don't know about what TFP doing in their job" i woudn't say anything

 

[Jost Amman]

Yes, but there were words "survival horror" : i think if you would ask someone in 2014 about horror game he would say - f.e.a.r.2 , resident evil, Silent hill etc.  Now it will be Fnaf ,poppy playtime etc. Yes this changes but if you use phase "star wars stormtrooper"  in 2000 everyone would think about...  orginal trilogy stormtoopers. Now? Well there are clone stormtroopers, first order stormtroopers etc.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here...  :frown:

 

[Roland]

Ok . Witcher - Metropolis city version( yep Cd project wasn't first),  Silent hill downpour, DL2,  Aliens colonial marine, Gothic 3, CoD ww2 , Total war attila etc.

 And you were in on the development builds of these games to witness how the cuts that were made during development made these games mediocre?  You played the much better earlier unreleased version of The Witcher before it became the mediocre lesser released version?

I wasn’t aware that these listed games had early access to their development process.

 

[Matt115]

I disagree, water survival can't just be an issue for the first 15 minutes in the game.

Well - this hard too say. A lot o people compaling that in MGS you can do something after 10 hour because most time you just cook food , drink water and just making shor tours

This is something I often don’t understand about your posts. The game in A20 is darker and edgier than it ever has been. The zombie models are grosser than they were with dangling eyeballs and such. There are now more gruesome remains and gore piles than ever before. Decapitations used to be just “pink mist” and now they are moving to grosser actual decapitations with the head popping off and a more horrific neck wound left behind. A21 is going even further with this with Glen-like eyes pooping out of sockets and caved in heads showing brain matter. 
 

There is spooky music now and sound effects that inspire dread at least the first time you hear them…lol. 
 

The wasteland cities are scarier especially if feral mode is on. Doing a quest in a wasteland downtown POI is much scarier now than ever before. 
 

There are more locations that are more horrific like sewers and sub terrain caves where you are confined in tight quarters if a wandering horde comes by and cuts off your escape routes.

7 Days to Die may not be as brutal and grossly over the top as other titles but I 

am always at a loss whenever I read your many posts that the game is less horrific now than it used to be. Maybe you feel it can only be Mad Max like OR horror like but not both. To me it seems like a more horrific mad max post apoc world than Mad Max itself. 
 

I know you’ll say the lack of variety spoils it for you but there is more variety now than there ever was in the past. Maybe not on specific zombie faces though. Not all past zombies got the upgrade. 

But it's 2022 not 2014.  Is less darker - colours were much faded that now. Edgier. Nope. You respawned near corpse : 

Corpse - Official 7 Days to Die Wiki (fandom.com) this corpse models looks very good for 2014. Zombies looks grosser that cod models of zombies ( well it wasn't Dead Island level but DI is not voxelgame - i accepted technical stuff). Now zombies looks better that in 2014 but now there is diffrents standards : 

This is no more room in hell 2 zombie.  A little bit more grosome.  More edgy? nope - drones, weapons models etc.

When i saw old 7dtd models - it's looks like RE4 and that's why good. now models looks like : 7dtd

Fallout 4



AK looks similiar right?

Feral is just... faster zombie with yellow eyes.  Idea is good - check this Introducing the Zombies – NMRiH2 Dev Blog . There is visual diffrence bettwen "feral", normal and weak zombie.

Well.. mad max is less horiffic that's true... but edgier. Mad Max is not horrific - is simple - there is "normal guys" and crazy bandits. nothing more nothing less.  Well i don't say this cannot be "edgy , dark, horror and nuclear post apo" in this same time - metro is good example for that, and in theory S.t.a.l.k.e.r but this is "post soviet style" - this ofc could be done - Terminator is good example for that

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here...  :frown:

fine

 And you were in on the development builds of these games to witness how the cuts that were made during development made these games mediocre?  You played the much better earlier unreleased version of The Witcher before it became the mediocre lesser released version?

I wasn’t aware that these listed games had early access to their development process.

Well i understanded ( this was my point) that you want example that people know sometimes what is happening behind a door. and i wrote this as replay for Jost. It wasn't about 7dtd, TFP, early access games. I was talked about game industry - usually if a lot of things is cutted or changed a lot that's mean something bad is happpening with produced game.  Jugginator post was very general so this could be about 7dtd and TFP only or about game companies

 

[Jost Amman]

AK looks similiar right?

An AK is an AK, how much different would you expect it to be??  :lol:

Well i undestanded ( this was my point) that you want example that people know sometimes what is happening behind a door. and i wrote to Jost. It wasn't about 7dtd, TFP, early access games. I was talked about game industry - usually if a lot of things is cutted or changed a lot that's mean something bad is happpening with produced game. 

But again, that's because most 7D2D players haven't been following TFP as we do.

I'm surprised that you think these changes are "bad omens" for the game's future... you should know better!