Things I Like/Dislike about Modern 7dtd and Why I think Alpha 17/18 are a perfect balance between survival and arcady sandbox

[8_Hussars]

If you get bored of 2.0 before 3.0 gets here, give 16.4 a try (assuming PC ofc). It might not be that great to go back, but it's basically a different game. I'm suggesting 16 and not 17 for the zed AI changes, iirc they came in in 17 and the first patch with it was .. obnoxious. It may have been toned down by end of 17, but if you want to see the "classic" vibe, 16 or earlier.

I have watched a few VODs of a current player doing an A16.4 play though.

I thoroughly enjoyed the sandbox feel without the Trader Quest focus of the current versions. The nostalgia for this was real and I often play the current version this way. I did like the darker look and the subdued color palette. I also liked looting zombies.

The weapon part and vehicle part system seemed promising. I liked the simple but slightly extra complexity for immersion. It was also nice because zombies also seemed to hit like a freight train. That will appeal to some, and also not appeal to some, depending on their approach and play style.

I get the satisfaction of seeing the dripped accomplishment feedback that "Action Skill increased by 1". But I did not feel any nostalgia for the LBD system. It was overly large and bloated. At one point the player stopped to spend 47 skill points (or something). Hence, it did not seem to add any real "fun" to the gameplay experience. The wellness system was extremly punishing and the depleting wellness death spiral loop was real.

The Zombie AI was unexpectedly poor. When not close enough to the player they just ran in circles. The zombies never seemed to target a player, only random blocks. I can see why TFPs jury rigged the zombie AI to "see" doors and hatches with reduced HP, becasue without that "fix" combat was extremely tedious, enlessly looking for angles or trying to hit zombies as they passed an opening.

The intervening Alphas have addressed most of the jank, the hit boxes, and a lot of the other niggling stuff.

 

[theFlu]

The Zombie AI was unexpectedly poor. When not close enough to the player they just ran in circles.

Ye, it had plenty of ... quirks, not just the AI, but the game as a whole. But the zeds felt more like zeds, especially when compared to what then immediately replaced the old in the next patch. Good review overall thou

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

please say exactly in which way TFP wanted more RPG in the game than they provided

What part of...

ripping out partially implemented systems, e.g. the biome effects system and palpable ways to offset those effects, replacing them with "live action" game "challenge" windows, potions and HUD messages

...did you not understand? The former, partially implemented system of biome effects and tangible ways to offset them was removed as opposed to being defined, refined and fully implemented in favor of "live service" game-like "challenges," smoothies, Boy Scout badges and HUD messages. And this is not the first time such has occurred during the development of this game for whatever reason, arguably including questionable industry influences. That's the straw that broke the camel's back between the game -- not TFP, who you obviously think you're defending -- and me.

If you're not aware of or have no interest in the drivers of the collapse of Western civilization -- of which game industry trends exploitative of both players and developers are but a symptom -- you won't understand a word I say, guaranteed. Acknowledged observations of an interconnected system are hardly a "generalization," but a "big picture" view of which the games industry is but a small part. And if you choose to deny developers are constantly influencing each other as well as taking inspiration from other forms of media.... Well, I'm not sure what to think about that. Fallout was influenced by the Mad Max movies; Ellison's 'A Boy and His Dog'; and, I'm sure, quite a number of other influences, its distinctive retrofuturistic aesthetic being the brainchild of Leonard Boyarsky and what sets it apart from all other postapocalyptic media. TFP have named BGS' Fallouts a major influence for what that's worth.

never look in the direction of From software

Perhaps you would if you were looking at the big picture. I can imagine Bandai Namco seeing the financial success of open world games and coming to FromSoftware with the "novel" idea of making the next Souls game open world just as publishers saw the financial success of Fortnite and, suddenly, every studio in their charge was tasked with developing a "live service" game whether the studio had any experience with developing such games or not. (And dumpster fires like 'Redfall' were the inevitable result, besmirching the studios' names and reputations when they had little to nothing to do with the decisions.)

I can further imagine Miyazaki thinking to himself, "You have no idea what the Dark Souls series is all about, do you?" {Brainstorming sessions later} "I know. We'll create a 'new' IP built around the Souls formula; rename everything from bonfires to rings; and make it 'open world.' Maybe then Namco will be happy; our budget funding won't dry up; and our original, niche Souls concept can remain blissfully untouched by the powers that be." (Pure speculation, of course, but I can't help but imagine it going down something like that.)

No idea why TFP decided to go open world with 7DTD and not utilize the vast majority of that world for anything other than traversal between towns and cities, but they did. That's another point of contention between me and the game. The wilderness has been woefully neglected, likely since the transformations from learn by doing to learn by looting, etc. Sure. Players can still build their bases in it, but it has no appeal otherwise. What did inspire the open world choice? TFP aren't saying.

 

[meganoth]

What part of...

...did you not understand? The former, partially implemented system of biome effects and tangible ways to offset them was removed as opposed to being defined, refined and fully implemented in favor of "live service" game-like "challenges," smoothies, Boy Scout badges and HUD messages.

And your position is that biome effects and tangible ways to offset them are RPG features? I see biome effects in many game genres, including open worlds, **especially** survival games. But RPGs? A lot of them have none.

And this is not the first time such has occurred during the development of this game for whatever reason, arguably including questionable industry influences. That's the straw that broke the camel's back between the game -- not TFP, who you obviously think you're defending -- and me.

If you're not aware of or have no interest in the drivers of the collapse of Western civilization -- of which game industry trends exploitative of both players and developers are but a symptom -- you won't understand a word I say, guaranteed. Acknowledged observations of an interconnected system are hardly a "generalization," but a "big picture" view of which the games industry is but a small part. And if you choose to deny developers are constantly influencing each other as well as taking inspiration from other forms of media.... Well, I'm not sure what to think about that. Fallout was influenced by the Mad Max movies; Ellison's 'A Boy and His Dog'; and, I'm sure, quite a number of other influences, its distinctive retrofuturistic aesthetic being the brainchild of Leonard Boyarsky and what sets it apart from all other postapocalyptic media. TFP have named BGS' Fallouts a major influence for what that's worth.


Perhaps you would if you were looking at the big picture. I can imagine Bandai Namco seeing the financial success of open world games and coming to FromSoftware with the "novel" idea of making the next Souls game open world just as publishers saw the financial success of Fortnite and, suddenly, every studio in their charge was tasked with developing a "live service" game whether the studio had any experience with developing such games or not. (And dumpster fires like 'Redfall' were the inevitable result, besmirching the studios' names and reputations when they had little to nothing to do with the decisions.)

I can further imagine Miyazaki thinking to himself, "You have no idea what the Dark Souls series is all about, do you?" {Brainstorming sessions later} "I know. We'll create a 'new' IP built around the Souls formula; rename everything from bonfires to rings; and make it 'open world.' Maybe then Namco will be happy; our budget funding won't dry up; and our original, niche Souls concept can remain blissfully untouched by the powers that be." (Pure speculation, of course, but I can't help but imagine it going down something like that.)

No idea why TFP decided to go open world with 7DTD and not utilize the vast majority of that world for anything other than traversal between towns and cities, but they did. That's another point of contention between me and the game. The wilderness has been woefully neglected, likely since the transformations from learn by doing to learn by looting, etc. Sure. Players can still build their bases in it, but it has no appeal otherwise. What did inspire the open world choice? TFP aren't saying.

While that situation was better in A15/A16 than in say A20 it also improved again in 2.0 with a lot more wilderness POIs and mining resources again distributed into the biomes. I also remember that in A15/A16 the wilderness was just there to be crossed or mined, nothing else. I would even have said 2.0 were on the same level as A15/A16 if it wasn't for the lakes. Because the big lakes which forced you to big detours or even building bridges made a difference.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I would even have said 2.0 were on the same level as A15/A16 if it wasn't for the lakes. Because the big lakes which forced you to big detours or even building bridges made a difference.

It also was there to look at. There were a lot more interesting vistas or "wow I want to go see that" types of things in A16, as least as far as I'm concerned. The landscape now seems rather dull, mostly because it seems to be a lot flatter (I'm not just speaking of mountains/hills, but that you'd often crest a rise and see something cool in the distance, and that sort of thing just doesn't seem to happen now.)

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

your position is that biome effects and tangible ways to offset them are RPG features

No, it isn't. What's your obsession with RPGs? As I answered you originally and every time since:

please say exactly in which way TFP wanted more RPG in the game than they provided

I said nothing remotely like that. Stop putting words in my mouth and attempting to debunk a theory that hasn't been proferred by me. What I said specifically in response to that was this:

That's not why I've withdrawn my support for the game and I didn't say that's why I've withdrawn my support for the game. Subnautica is not a RPG either, but Unknown Worlds didn't promise more than they could deliver and start ripping out partially implemented systems, e.g. the biome effects system and palpable ways to offset those effects, replacing them with "live action" game "challenge" windows, potions and HUD messages rather than developing a complex, robust and compelling system, which I get the impression TFP has neither the time or money left to accomplish. The best way most can put that is all over this forum and everywhere else: "I like the concept, but the implementation leaves much to be desired," to paraphrase.

If you don't like just one of the many reasons I have personally withdrawn my support for the game, I couldn't care less. It certainly doesn't affect either you or TFP, but only the family and friends I'll be sparing yet another game that didn't live up to its potential.

This exchange is over.

 

[meganoth]

No, it isn't. What's your obsession with RPGs? As I answered you originally and every time since:



I said nothing remotely like that. Stop putting words in my mouth and attempting to debunk a theory that hasn't been proferred by me. What I said specifically in response to that was this:


If you don't like just one of the many reasons I have personally withdrawn my support for the game, I couldn't care less. It certainly doesn't affect either you or TFP, but only the family and friends I'll be sparing yet another game that didn't live up to its potential.

This exchange is over.

I quoted your post. Can't you even read what you yourself posted?

QUOTE from you again: "Impression is: they bit off more they could chew with the RPG promises, perhaps inspired by the success of Skyrim or some other "open world" phenomenon like everyone else, including Bandai Namco and/or FromSoftware to be frank"

Do you see the "RPG" in there? "RPG promises". I asked you multiple times what you meant by that. If it was a mistake, just say so, no problem. But if you make such statements you should be able to explain them, right?

 

[Kalen]

In fact the game industry produces the same amount of high quality true RPGs like in its best times

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with that.... granted this is anecdotal, but I remember far more awesome RPGs "back in the day" than I see now.

 

[BFT2020]

RPG is such a fluid category today that everyone is going to have an opinion on what games are and what games are not.

And today it is much harder for developers to make a RPG with updated hardware, graphics. Development costs are much higher today and there are (at least IMHO) too high expectations on a good RPG that they don't want to take the risk to develop.

 

[Batman]

• Storms are getting tweaks, according to faatal, so hopefully those tweaks will make some people happier. For instance, I know once of the changes is taking damage will be slower to occur.
• The temperature system is planned to come back. They have to rework the code first.
• Spears should be throwable again, I agree. I actually think they could use a little more buffing.
• I think screamers are fun ^_^ but I can understand those who don't agree.
• Showing the POI difficulty is a good thing. People should know what they are getting themselves into and prepare adequately.
• The meat smelling mechanic was turned into Feral Sense, which can be toggled in settings. The game could use some more QoL settings, imo.

Why can't you find a breathing mask for burn forest? Why is it some silly merit badge? Do I look like a boy scout? A radiation suit for the good old classic game whereas players thought radiation suits meant wasteland. Who thought of this? We think of amazing ideas and the pimps think of weird ideas....for there goal as an MMORPG this game is.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

for there goal as an MMORPG this game is

Or, at least, appears to be at this point, though it obviously wasn't designed to be so for the vast majority of its development cycle. Yet it now contains MMORPG elements. Remarkably, this is not without the encouragment of prominent players, some of whom are wont to boast of their "connections" with the developers, who they apparently met at a game expo and now think they have some influence over the game's development as a result of their bare acquaintance with the devs. Who knows? Maybe they do.

I only know of one instance in which a prominent player made a heartfelt appeal to the devs replete with ideas he thought would expand and enliven the playerbase, suggesting a monthly subscription, timed MMORPG-style "events" and assorted other industry practices he obviously doesn't think manipulative or exploitative, possibly because they've been normalized to the point few question them anymore, especially young players as that's all they've ever known. Perhaps needless to say, said suggestions were met with strong criticism, which the player immediately called "hate." Most of us frankly can't tell the difference anymore and/or purposefully pull out the "hate" label to shut down conversation on any subject. Perhaps it was pure naivete talking. He said he didn't mind those elements in other games he plays. I'm pretty sure, however, most people know how exceptionally controversial said industry practices are and I find naivete, feigned or otherwise, no excuse for attempting to speak for all players of 7DTD everywhere.

I've no idea what or who may be influencing the devs' decisions about the game, but it took a marked turn into the shallow end of the pool in my estimation with the advent of 1.0 and, more prominently, 2.0 and its superficial treatment of "biome progression." Simply put: it's headed in a direction I personally refuse to go on principle alone.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

they don't want to take the risk to develop

Or, at least, publishers don't. Interestingly enough, Tim Cain, who has a YouTube channel upon which he shares his vast experience with RPG developers specifically, has called out "industry caution" as detrimental to the craft. PCGamer also ran a recent article titled 'Helldivers 2's Johan Pilestedt says developers need to start taking more risks: 'safe bets are a death sentence for the studios that try to make them'. Fear of failure is certainly a hot topic among developers themselves and I think I've mentioned the constraints they're put under by their supposed superiors: the publishers and console manufacturers who are buying them out left and right with the "too big to fail" mentality ruling the day.

Now, Unknown Worlds has felt the tangible consequences and we can only hope other studios, like Obsidian, don't regret their decision to take shelter under the supposedly "too big to fail" umbrellas.

Most players frankly aren't helping the situation when they blame "the devs" for everything going wrong in the industry when "the devs" are not to blame, but rather a worldview and paradigm that permeates the socioeconomic system we live in.