PC The weird implementation of stealth and its counter measures.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Since when does stealth mean invisible? According to leo.org and two native speakers (had to double check as a non native) it means lurking/clandestine.

Anyways, are there any plans to fix the breaking trough walls beeing more silent? @SylenThunder

 

[Viktoriusiii]

One thing that I've always argued needed to be changed is the use of the word "Stealth". It isn't stealth. You aren't some magically invisible being. It's sneaking, and sometimes you just get seen.

I am in favor of the way the current system works. Previously you could go through completely invisible to everything except the triggered zones without even putting points to "stealth". The current system makes the "Stealth" tree more important for that type of gameplay.

NO!!! So much no.
Absolutely @%$#ing not.
I can not NO enough to express my No'yness!

Seriously. Do you know Fifa?
Do you know why basicially everyone who isn't a pro or a child has quit it?
Because of "Momentum". A mechanic that is to this day denied by EA but every player that can play well enough knows it.
It is a way to a) bring in realism (because not every player plays the same and certain things like scoring a goal affects the mood) and b) to control players so that it never gets TOO much out of hand.

It feels like the game cheats you.


Anyways my point is:
It should be up to the player to make mistakes, not the game.
If the player doesn't make mistakes and you 'force' a mistake on him by chance, it is one of the worst feelings there is.

Make stealth even harder.
Make me crawl centimetre by centimetre if you absolutely want to.
Make every trashbag cause an explosion if walked over.

But don't say "well sometimes people make mistakes, therefor the game should mirror that"
NO. The player is the one to make mistakes, not the game.
So forcing it upon a player is the absolute wrong way to do it.


Stealthing should be hard, but rewarding.
If it is impossible, then you basicially took away all the reward.

 

[meganoth]

NO!!! So much no.
Absolutely @%$#ing not.
I can not NO enough to express my No'yness!

Seriously. Do you know Fifa?
Do you know why basicially everyone who isn't a pro or a child has quit it?
Because of "Momentum". A mechanic that is to this day denied by EA but every player that can play well enough knows it.
It is a way to a) bring in realism (because not every player plays the same and certain things like scoring a goal affects the mood) and b) to control players so that it never gets TOO much out of hand.

It feels like the game cheats you.


Anyways my point is:
It should be up to the player to make mistakes, not the game.
If the player doesn't make mistakes and you 'force' a mistake on him by chance, it is one of the worst feelings there is.

Make stealth even harder.
Make me crawl centimetre by centimetre if you absolutely want to.
Make every trashbag cause an explosion if walked over.

But don't say "well sometimes people make mistakes, therefor the game should mirror that"
NO. The player is the one to make mistakes, not the game.
So forcing it upon a player is the absolute wrong way to do it.


Stealthing should be hard, but rewarding.
If it is impossible, then you basicially took away all the reward.

Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time

Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.

The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it.

...
Could you still explain what Passive, Active, Agressive and mixed means?

And if you have the time, could you explain these values of 0,0,1,1,2,2???

passive=0, active=1 and agressive=2 . Mixed means a POI has rooms with different values, not all 0 or not all 1, or 2.

The interpretation is likely (I'm just guessing, this is one thing I want to find out with the test game):

passive -> All the zombies are sleepers

active -> The zombie are wandering aimless around or standing there, but they don't automatically notice you.

agressive -> The zombies get a roll whether they will notice you. If not they will just stay active, if yes they will attack you

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time

Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.

The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it.

That response was PURELY aimed towards @SylenThunders argument of "stealth shouldn't work all the time, because realism".
Because that is a mindset that takes away the players agency and gives it an 'rng-feel' because it is not in the control of the player.
It wasn't AT ALL aimed at this current system. I made those points in my OP.
Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of the current implementation of this system, but I understand the thought behind it. It definately needs tweaking though.
So I hope I cleared that up
 

 

[meganoth]

That response was PURELY aimed towards @SylenThunders argument of "stealth shouldn't work all the time, because realism".
Because that is a mindset that takes away the players agency and gives it an 'rng-feel' because it is not in the control of the player.
It wasn't AT ALL aimed at this current system. I made those points in my OP.
Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of the current implementation of this system, but I understand the thought behind it. It definately needs tweaking though.
So I hope I cleared that up
 

But then you have misread Sylen, I can't see anything in his response about realism. He is arguing along the same lines I did now that it is more dynamic now, and that you really need to invest in stealth to make use of it.

And yes, it is more random this way. You still control it, but not like a chess player but like a general in the field who has always to react to unforseeable events in the battle.

 

[Ornias]

I have gone from a stealth pistol/bow build to a straight up Fortitude build with an AK. I can do twice as many POI's now with my run and gun vs stealth builds. Speed was always the balancing factor with stealth. 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

It's sneaking, and sometimes you just get seen.

Only when you do a mistake. The problem right now is that you can do everything right and still get seen for no discernable reason.
 

But then you have misread Sylen, I can't see anything in his response about realism. He is arguing along the same lines I did now that it is more dynamic now. And yes, it is more random this way. You still control it, but not like a chess player but like a general in the field who has always to react to unforseeable events in the battle.

I will try and give as precise examples as I possibly can.
If you have the time, you can watch this video as it explains it REALLY well:
https://youtu.be/Ay-5g36oFfc?t=272 (the whole channel is interesting, but this section of this video is relevant)


Basicially:
It does not feel fair when enemies hear you for no reason.
This isn't a stealth game, so there is no need to "favour" the player (see video), but to outright favour the game to increase difficulty will always feel punishing.
I have talked about punishing mechanics a lot on these forums, since TFPs used punishment A LOT in previous alphas (and still do).
Don't punish the player for your lack of creativity. JUST DON'T.

If you can't somehow make zombies that are actually challenging, while staying consistent with the gamerules, don't cheat to gain the same effect.
(gamerule: stealthbar is directly correlated to zombie detection. The lower it is, the closer you can get to it.
rulebreaking: zombies suddenly know where you are, even though your stealthmeter was perfect)




One more thing:
If stealthperks actually gave you an adequat way of fighting with a lot of Z's at the same time, this wouldn't be THAT much of an issue.
But basicially every attribute has ways to defeat many Z's at once. Except for the agility one.
Sure you still CAN use pistols and machetes to fight. But it is far FAR less powerful. To a point where it is borderline useless.

In normal circumstances, this would be fair, because it is all up to the player.
Didn't sneak well enough? Tough luck, go figure out how you deal with it.
But if the game CHEATS and puts you in this position, it is no longer fair.

*edit*
Fortitude gives you better survivability
Strength gives you far higher dps and good weapons
Perception isn't a fighting skilltree. If you skill in that you better are in coop or just that good that you don't need dmg. You know what you get yourself into.
even Intellect hast AWESOME CC with the turrets. Even though it is not meant to be a combat attribute.

And NO, just because the machete is an absolutely broken weapon does not mean that you can fight as a stealthchar. It means the machete needs a nerf (since I think A17)


Feral sense, better detectionrate, trashpiles making sound, trapfloors etc. are all great ways to increase difficulty for stealth.
Rolling a dice to determin if the player gets seen IS NOT. Persiod.

 

[Boidster]

passive=0, active=1 and agressive=2 . Mixed means a POI has rooms with different values, not all 0 or not all 1, or 2.

The interpretation is likely (I'm just guessing, this is one thing I want to find out with the test game):

passive -> All the zombies are sleepers

active -> The zombie are wandering aimless around or standing there, but they don't automatically notice you.

agressive -> The zombies get a roll whether they will notice you. If not they will just stay active, if yes they will attack you

Pretty much, yes. OOPS, nope! I misunderstood the same way you did.

Active = 0, Passive = 1, Aggressive = 2

So there are no POIs where all volumes are "passive". More details on this active/passive stuff in a later post.

A minor quibble <pushes glasses up nose> technically the numbers correspond to "sleeper volumes" which might span several rooms, or only cover a small portion of a room. Some POIs have (or did in A19 anyhow) volumes which span floors of the building.

And for clarity I'd note that the descriptions of passive/active/aggressive that you gave are in effect after the player crosses the boundary of the volume. Prior to that they are all "sleepers" (motionless in their starting position).

 

[meganoth]

Only when you do a mistake. The problem right now is that you can do everything right and still get seen for no discernable reason.
 

Just like in an RPG or a wargame. If you do everything right, you just maxed out your chances. And you win by always doing the stuff that gives you a better chance than the enemy. This is a design philosophy you seem to profoundly dislike, but it is nevertheless a valid design philosphy that many people like.

I will try and give as precise examples as I possibly can.
If you have the time, you can watch this video as it explains it REALLY well:
https://youtu.be/Ay-5g36oFfc?t=272 (the whole channel is interesting, but this section of this video is relevant)


Basicially:
It does not feel fair when enemies hear you for no reason.
This isn't a stealth game, so there is no need to "favour" the player (see video), but to outright favour the game to increase difficulty will always feel punishing.
I have talked about punishing mechanics a lot on these forums, since TFPs used punishment A LOT in previous alphas (and still do).
Don't punish the player for your lack of creativity. JUST DON'T.

Enemies hear you because you always do noise. Ever seen your noise meter go to zero? It doesn't. By avoiding noisy activities and having high stealth perks you are maximising the chance you are not noticed. 

A real stealth game needs to give you much more control over this because if you are detected it is almost always game over (I'm sure the video talks about stuff like this). The rooms and enemies have usually fixed routines, everything is more like a puzzle you have to solve. Random puzzles generally don't work. 7D2D does not give you carefully crafted puzzles for stealth players, it can't.

If you can't somehow make zombies that are actually challenging, while staying consistent with the gamerules, don't cheat to gain the same effect.
(gamerule: stealthbar is directly correlated to zombie detection. The lower it is, the closer you can get to it.
rulebreaking: zombies suddenly know where you are, even though your stealthmeter was perfect)

Yes, only that your stealthmeter never is perfect. And you are citing rules made for stealth games while saying 7D2D isn't one just a few sentences before.

One more thing:
If stealthperks actually gave you an adequat way of fighting with a lot of Z's at the same time, this wouldn't be THAT much of an issue.
But basicially every attribute has ways to defeat many Z's at once. Except for the agility one.
Sure you still CAN use pistols and machetes to fight. But it is far FAR less powerful. To a point where it is borderline useless.

Read the perk description, it gives a hint: "Enemies will search for you for up to x seconds.". And x goes down with every additional perk point.

AGI has light armor for a reason, and there are a few items to make you run faster. You can run out of their range and restealth. It isn't exactly the easiest thing in the game you can do, but it actually is a fun thing to do in a high adrenaline way. Naturally it should not happen in every room that you have to run for your live (as any such event slows you down). Therefore only some rooms can be agressive rooms (or areas) and the dice roll that determines whether zombies wake up has to be well balanced so a stealth player feels his perk points well invested.

In normal circumstances, this would be fair, because it is all up to the player.
Didn't sneak well enough? Tough luck, go figure out how you deal with it.
But if the game CHEATS and puts you in this position, it is no longer fair.

RNG is not cheating, even the universe does it, much to the chagrin of Albert Einstein

*edit*
Fortitude gives you better survivability
Strength gives you far higher dps and good weapons
Perception isn't a fighting skilltree. If you skill in that you better are in coop or just that good that you don't need dmg. You know what you get yourself into.
even Intellect hast AWESOME CC with the turrets. Even though it is not meant to be a combat attribute.

And NO, just because the machete is an absolutely broken weapon does not mean that you can fight as a stealthchar. It means the machete needs a nerf (since I think A17)


Feral sense, better detectionrate, trashpiles making sound, trapfloors etc. are all great ways to increase difficulty for stealth.
Rolling a dice to determin if the player gets seen IS NOT. Persiod.

 

[Boidster]

Here is a little context. This is store_book_02 as seen in the POI editor. The blue areas are Sleeper Volumes (you can see the little sleeping zombies in them). The roof has three different volumes, and the rear loading dock has a single volume. There are various volumes inside the building.



This is a look at the first volume you'll encounter if you go in the Crack-A-Cafe door. The Sleeper Volume Trigger option can be "Passive", "Active", or "Attack". These settings correspond to SleeperVolumeFlag settings (in XML) of 1, 0, and 2 respectively. For this POI it looks like this:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,1,2,2,2,2" />

That reads "Active,Active,Attack,Active,Active,Attack,Attack,Attack,Passive,Passive,Attack,Attack,Attack"

You can see the glowing X-ray shapes of the sleeper positions behind the counter.



This is the same view for one of the rooftop volumes. This one is set to Attack ("2").



If you playtest this POI, you can sneak right up to the "Active" sleepers in the Cafe area, but as soon as you cross the border of the rooftop area set to "Attack", the Z's wake up and shamble towards you.

I checked out army_camp_01, which has this set of flags:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,1,1,1,1,1" />

"Active,Passive,Passive,Passive,Passive,Passive,"

It looks like this. The big green volume encompassing the entire camp is the Active volume; the buildings and huts are Passive.



I playtested this POI and couldn't discern any difference between Active and Passive. I could sneak around in any of the volumes, but if I made noise the zombies would wake up and come after me. There's more going on here, but I don't have time at the moment to dig deeper.

Edit to add: one idea might be that Passive volumes are used in POI designs like above so you can have one big area (the whole camp) spawn in zombies and activate them if you make noise while also having smaller volumes within the bigger one which remain quiet/sleeping in spite of the hubub going on outside. Without this idea, the POI designer would have to use elite Tetris skills to craft a bunch of volumes for the outside areas which cover everything but don't intersect the huts.

The volumes marked "Attack" do seem to have clear behavior - as soon as you cross the boundary, all of the sleepers wake up and attack. Which is the root of OP's complaint I think.

Nope. See this post later in this thread for a brutal takedown of this idea. Turns out that with high enough stealth (low enough visibility number) you can still sneak around even in "Attack" volumes.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Just like in an RPG or a wargame. If you do everything right, you just maxed out your chances. And you win by always doing the stuff that gives you a better chance than the enemy. This is a design philosophy you seem to profoundly dislike, but it is nevertheless a valid design philosphy that many people like.

If you perk into stealth it effectively becomes one. You have basicially descided "I forgo the chance of dealing with active zombies (like on hordenight), but can therefor clear pois much more effectively.

Enemies hear you because you always do noise. Ever seen your noise meter go to zero? It doesn't. By avoiding noisy activities and having high stealth perks you are maximising the chance you are not noticed. 

A real stealth game needs to give you much more control over this because if you are detected it is almost always game over (I'm sure the video talks about stuff like this). The rooms and enemies have usually fixed routines, everything is more like a puzzle you have to solve. Random puzzles generally don't work. 7D2D does not give you carefully crafted puzzles for stealth players, it can't.

Yes, only that your stealthmeter never is perfect. And you are citing rules made for stealth games while saying 7D2D isn't one just a few sentences before.

No. They hear you because someone played dice when I stepped into that room.
those two things are not the same. I can stand right next to a zombie at night (with visibility < 20), but if I make that one step with <5 visibility, the whole room wakes up.

This is not fair. And not in the "this needs to be balanced" kind of fair, but in the "fair for the player" kind of fair.
There is no indicator that this can happen. There is no counterplay (except running away, which is often prevented by zombies in walls and so on).

Read the perk description, it gives a hint: "Enemies will search for you for up to x seconds.". And x goes down with every additional perk point.

AGI has light armor for a reason, combined with a few items to make you run faster you can run out of their range and restealth. It isn't exactly the easiest thing in the game you can do, but it actually is a fun thing to do in a high adrenaline way. Naturally it should not happen in every room that you have to run for your live (as any such event slows you down). Therefore only some rooms can be agressive rooms (or areas) and the dice roll that determines whether zombies wake up has to be well balanced so a stealth player feels his perk points well invested.

Okay if TFPs want me to play that way, fine. Then they do not know what makes stealth so fun.
Yes it can be very fun luring awake zombies to a position and hiding, killing them from sneak.
And I think it is a great mechanic. But not because they forced it down my throat, but because I made a mistake and now need to find a creative solution to the self-made problem.

RNG is not cheating, even the universe does it, much to the chagrin of Albert Einstein

There is different sorts of RNG.
And most games cheat by displaying a much lower chance, so that the player does not feel cheated. (the psyche is a very dasterdly thing after all).
This isn't a competative wargame. We play this game to have fun, not to have things happen to us that is beyond our control.


A CERTAIN AMOUNT of random chance is great. But the point at which it becomes frustrating is hard to see for devs. And once crossed is a big detriment to the game.
 

The volumes marked "Attack" do seem to have clear behavior - as soon as you cross the boundary, all of the sleepers wake up and attack. Which is the root of OP's complaint I think.

Correct. Thank you @Boidster.
If they only wake up if I am above a certain sneak value... that is still kind of bad (it should follow the rules, like every other zombie, namely every Z' has their own detection based on range), but at least that is somewhat understandable.

If the chance to wake up is random, or even 100% (as it seems certain rooms are), that is not a good design.

I have already given quite a few solutions and I think they still hold up.
IF THEY HAVE TO KEEP THIS SYSTEM then they need to change it drasticially. Even if I think it should be scrapped entirely.

 

[meganoth]

Here is a little context. This is store_book_02 as seen in the POI editor. The blue areas are Sleeper Volumes (you can see the little sleeping zombies in them). The roof has three different volumes, and the rear loading dock has a single volume. There are various volumes inside the building.

View attachment 21877

This is a look at the first volume you'll encounter if you go in the Crack-A-Cafe door. The Sleeper Volume Trigger option can be "Passive", "Active", or "Attack". These settings correspond to SleeperVolumeFlag settings (in XML) of 1, 0, and 2 respectively. For this POI it looks like this:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,1,2,2,2,2" />

That reads "Active,Active,Attack,Active,Active,Attack,Attack,Attack,Passive,Passive,Attack,Attack,Attack"

You can see the glowing X-ray shapes of the sleeper positions behind the counter.

View attachment 21878

This is the same view for one of the rooftop volumes. This one is set to Attack ("2").

View attachment 21879

If you playtest this POI, you can sneak right up to the "Active" sleepers in the Cafe area, but as soon as you cross the border of the rooftop area set to "Attack", the Z's wake up and shamble towards you.

I checked out army_camp_01, which has this set of flags:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,1,1,1,1,1" />

"Active,Passive,Passive,Passive,Passive,Passive,"

It looks like this. The big green volume encompassing the entire camp is the Active volume; the buildings and huts are Passive.

View attachment 21880

I playtested this POI and couldn't discern any difference between Active and Passive. I could sneak around in any of the volumes, but if I made noise the zombies would wake up and come after me. There's more going on here, but I don't have time at the moment to dig deeper.

Edit to add: one idea might be that Passive volumes are used in POI designs like above so you can have one big area (the whole camp) spawn in zombies and activate them if you make noise while also having smaller volumes within the bigger one which remain quiet/sleeping in spite of the hubub going on outside. Without this idea, the POI designer would have to use elite Tetris skills to craft a bunch of volumes for the outside areas which cover everything but don't intersect the huts.

The volumes marked "Attack" do seem to have clear behavior - as soon as you cross the boundary, all of the sleepers wake up and attack. Which is the root of OP's complaint I think.

Info about stealth perk level for your test is missing

 

[ZehMatt]

I have to agree with some aspects of what the Op says. I generally disagree with the spawn system for a couple of reasons.

1. The spawn distance is way too short, I suspect this is the limit of how many chunks are loaded, you can see them usually snap into existence especially during horde nights.

2. Zombies in biomes spawn randomly, there is no logic or weight or anything to it, the game should focus on simulating an actual zombie population so when I clear areas they stay clear unless new ones wander in which could be a constant stream from the map border or have the horde night respawn all around the player which gives it also a natural cycle to it.

As for the POI zombies,

one thing I always had my gripe with in this game has been the Zombies spawning in absurd locations such as the Closets or maybe even in the Ceiling, its somewhat hard to sell that they just willingly hang around in there forever. I also know its planned to have them wandering in POIs which would change everything, then I would however try to avoid static ones.

 

[ZehMatt]

I also think that it might be a bit too drastic to tell every zombie in that zone to immediately attack the player, instead they can just wake up and be in an aggressive state which would still keep stealth intact.

Probably time to make a new mod!

 

[Darklegend222]

Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time

Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.

The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it.

passive=0, active=1 and agressive=2 . Mixed means a POI has rooms with different values, not all 0 or not all 1, or 2.

The interpretation is likely (I'm just guessing, this is one thing I want to find out with the test game):

passive -> All the zombies are sleepers

active -> The zombie are wandering aimless around or standing there, but they don't automatically notice you.

agressive -> The zombies get a roll whether they will notice you. If not they will just stay active, if yes they will attack you

I'd like to say as an extremely avid Skyrim player, Bethesda and the entire 400k team learned that the bone traps which make noise weren't enough. They went out of their way to put torches in weird places and have lights in crucial places so you physically can't stealth everywhere.

This game personally doesn't have that entire implementation into POIs, and they are trying a new system. In skyrim, if I don't have perks into stealth then there is very little way I'm going to get that 30x backstab damage.

In 7 Days, if I don't have that stealth perk maxed, then I'm just having a higher CHANCE to not get seen. It's certainly an improvement, I will not deny that. However, if Skyrim was all rolls in the background instead of all your stats combined vs each NPC type, you'd never get stealth done.

I'm not going to mention the stealth perk that makes you invisible for 1 second when crouching in Skyrim since I'm avoiding magical effects from perks as they're very OP and can often break mechanics so badly that it's impossible to fail.

Enchanted gear is different as the devs are talking about adding gear sets which we can assume magic. Where stealth stands now, we're taking steps into a better direction, but we need less auto triggers and more lights so your stealth perks can shine better. As for the set bonuses, I can only assume the stealth armor buff becomes a thing that will allow stealth to be as it should.

 

[hiemfire]

RNG is not cheating, even the universe does it, much to the chagrin of Albert Einstein

Bull@%$#. Random chance as a concept only exists because we needed a way to account for things that we had insufficient information about to include as a separate variable or if the inclusion would increase the needed calculation/assessment "time" outside of what would be feasible.

Re: Attack volumes. Supposedly this is how they function in A20:

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22366-alpha-20-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=455644

 

[warmer]

of the 50 poi I have cleared on my current run, only 3 had trigger/trap rooms. The notion they all do is totally wrong. I can get through most POI without waking a single zed

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Stealth has been changed for A20 and will require some adaptation. There are no longer any auto trigger zombie wakeup areas. When you enter a volume there is going to be a check vs your stealth for each zombie to see if it wakes up. If you fail the check one or more zombie will wake up. If those zombies are in a position to see you then they will attack but if they don't see you then you can still enjoy stealth gameplay that you spent your points on. A zombie that wakes up doesn't automatically negate your stealth. It all depends on how you react.

We do need feedback on the system but you should know that the system is not automatic guaranteed aggro as soon as you pass an invisible line like some areas were in A19. Maybe you could give us a seed and the location of the POI where it seemed the zombies aggroed automatically.

rural_church_01 (should have 2 triggers. Once when going down the ladder and one inside the main lootroom)

store_book_02 has one when you drop down from the ceiling into the main lootroom
utility_refinery_01 (right after you get into the first big room they start to fall from the skies)

I am VERY certain that there still are auto-aggro rooms.
I actually never noticed them in A19. Either they were SUPER rare, or actually made sense (after trapfloors and stuff)

In A20 every POI has them. And they feel very much not like a chance, but like a certainty.

I have 2 points in stealth, a sneaklevel that is constantly under 20 and the same poi done 4 times... every time the same room triggered at the exact same point.
It feels VERY much arbitrary.

 

[meganoth]

Bull@%$#. Random chance as a concept only exists because we needed a way to account for things that we had insufficient information about to include as a separate variable or if the inclusion would increase the needed calculation/assessment "time" outside of what would be feasible.

Einsteins quote was just too good to not bring up. But anyway wikipedia thinks I'm right too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness#In_the_physical_sciences

Re: Attack volumes. Supposedly this is how they function in A20:

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22366-alpha-20-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=455644

 

[hiemfire]

Once when going down the ladder

Ya, stealth perks don't do @%$# when you aren't crouched. If you're climbing a ladder they will hear you. Better to find another way of getting up or down if you can. If you get lucky and find the Urban combat book that removes fall noise while crouched then just dropping down should be an option.

Einsteins quote was just too good to not bring up. But anyway wikipedia thinks I'm right too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness#In_the_physical_sciences

Not entirely. From the section you linked.

Hidden variable theories reject the view that nature contains irreducible randomness: such theories posit that in the processes that appear random, properties with a certain statistical distribution are at work behind the scenes, determining the outcome in each case.