"The PvP Update"

[Poojam]

@poo
What's the argument FOR having lcbs in a PvP game?

I'm sure there are many.

I believe they enable a very simple server-settings variable to adjust scalability of block durability. This provides online and offline security, while also enabling diversity of game types. Players can dial in their protection settings to suit their preferences. This is a game built around progression, gathering resources, crafting, killing, stealing, scavenging, and defending against other survivors and zombies. That's a very large investment in time to do most of those things well. LCB's provide the ability to protect that investment.

LCB's also allows prefabs to be built with the same materials as bases without having to introduce base specific blocks.

 

[7daysguy]

More thoughts on leveled loot

Leveled loot probably doesn't need to go away altogether, but like other player progress there should be less vertical progression. When you pull a pistol out of a crate, if it normally has a 5% chance to spawn a purple drop, then maybe with leveled loot it could be a 10%. People who play more will still have better weapons just because they will be rolling the dice more times. I don't think there should be any major barriers for new players getting good gear, other than it being rare in general.

With quality joe and scavenging right now, the difference in loot between a high level and low level character is crazy. Even if a high level character has a double % chance of finding better gear that would be huge, would be worth the investment. Since the POI spawns are supposed to be based on player levels now, I don't know if that means stronger zombies or just more zombies, but if it's stronger zombies then that already functions as a way to feed high level characters better loot, assuming the loot tables are better on those tougher enemies.

 

[TehRoach]

PvP VS Tower Defence

I have a few spare bucks to throw around so I might as well throw in my 2c

IMHO PvP should not be a priority for 7D2D.

PvP is the games weak point yes!

But this is overshadowed by all its other stronger and more desirable characteristics.

to me the P's in PvP is the important part Player(s) vs Player(s)

I believe that this is a very important point to be made.

In the majority of PvP games all players are online for the duration of the game instance (barring dropouts, rage quits etc.)

7D2D is a very different animal in this regard.

-Barring Private Servers, No one player is online all the time that the server is running.

-There is not intermission between potential battles.

-Maps are dynamic; often with alot of hard work and time, added by the player base.

-Voxals while awesome, have definate drawbacks to offline base defence.

Offline raidings are actually a sort of tower defense mode were you play on the attacking side. Thats not PvP. Pvp requires players in oposing forces fighting each other. Since any defense will always be beaten with the use of the proper force

As light describes, most raidings will take place while the majority of players are offline, so why concentrate on the actual PvP side of the game when it is only a minority part.

The game was suppose to have a tower defence aspect to it, and I believe that tower defence mechanics could also be used to solve most PvP problems.

going the turrets/traps or npc route is pointless.

However I would have to dissagree with this statement.

There is a difference between something that is hard and something that is pointless!

Yes preempting every possible entry point in a voxal environment is mind staggeringly endless, but setting up traps and kill points to let NPC's and online alies man while you are away (Sleeping/Working/Living in RL etc.) could be quite fun, especially if something like HAL's editor was implemented into vanilla.

For offline griefing / base raiding I still think my editor has the best system which is to allow players to save the area in their landclaims and have periodic cooldown (say 6 hours or something configurable in the XML) for restoring it.

However I would go to the extreme of also restoring all/most stolen items to remove the penalty for having a life outside of the game.

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

 

[legionpete]

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

This has the potential to introduce an accepted form of duping where 2 allied factions simply raid each other in order to increase their stock piles.
I have suggested having a single faction claim block where you invest duke coins into it to purchase perks. Those perks give faction members bonuses maybe even special skills. Players purchase those upgrades for their faction from a trader joel. Faction claims don't get destroyed but become temporarily indestructible once their dropped to zero. The coins used to purchase the upgrades are what is awarded to the raiding team. Not all, but a set percentage. The raided party may lose a few perks due to the loss and the raiding party can use the money to purchase perks.

For items the player is carrying, allow them to insure those items at a cost. Anything not insured can be looted and insured items reward the duke coins it cost to ensure those items. Players must return to trader joel to retrieve their insured items.

And I'd also allow players to rent storage crates from trader Joel so they can store items they may need later or as backup so that all their items won't be stolen from them. The more items trader Joel stores, the more duke coins it cost. A perk of the faction block could even be access to trader joel chest.

 

[7daysguy]

For items the player is carrying, allow them to insure those items at a cost. Anything not insured can be looted and insured items reward the duke coins it cost to ensure those items. Players must return to trader joel to retrieve their insured items.

Interesting idea, so if someone killed you and stole your loot, they would only get the coin value that you have paid to insure that loot? That would work to prevent players farming the insurance system, but introduces some discontinuity where you don't actually get the item that character was carrying.

Totally with you about renting storage lockers at Traitor Joels. Though it should probably be a flat rate for a container of a certain size.

 

[Poojam]

I have a few spare bucks to throw around so I might as well throw in my 2c
As light describes, most raidings will take place while the majority of players are offline, so why concentrate on the actual PvP side of the game when it is only a minority part.

....

However I would go to the extreme of also restoring all/most stolen items to remove the penalty for having a life outside of the game.

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

Most raids occur while players are offline because there is only a huge additional cost to doing it while the defenders are online. That is you are defending against someone that is spawning in the base trying to kill you. Where you are most likely bedrolled a ways away. The online/offline claim modifiers don't work. If they did, then servers could be configured such that there was a reason to conduct an online raid. For example, the online claim modifier would be 8x and the offline 64x. Well... maybe it's worth the risk to battle while breaking in because it will take you 8x longer to raid through that base while they are offline.

Repairing blocks are also much faster than damaging a block at just about any multiplier. So you can literally be hitting a door for 10 minutes, then the guy walk by and repair it 2x and erase all of that. Why subject yourself to such pointlessness?

A hokey scoreboard is simply that. It is meaningless. There is not much point in raiding someone if they get to keep their stuff. Stealing from other players rewards you with their resources and disadvantages other survivors because they are a weaker potential enemy.

Where will be the incentive to build a good base if all your stuff gets returned to you? What is the point? This shouldn't be little league, where everyone gets a medal.

 

[Poojam]

I can see the benefits of having settings that would allow PvE players to "get into" PvP on terms that would be more appealing to them. It certainly would be smart from a business standpoint for TFP to cater to that. On the other hand, I see what you are saying and I believe that I am ignorant of what truly PvP players want the more I read what you and Bloom have to say. I also think that your big three points above are exactly right for what needs to happen on a systemic level. Changing options is not enough. I see that. 30+ server support, admin tools, and PvP killing glitches and exploits definitely need to be high priority targets from the developers.
As far as options I think the key is to have as many as we can think of so that the game can easily be configured to settings that make veteran PvPers smile as well as make PvP enticing to the rest.

I'm glad you are supportive of those recommendations. We need you to relay this stuff to TFP and make the case for why it is important.

Wanted to post a little snipit of a situation of what I just ran into recently. I've seen Madmole claim in the past that the duping only hurts those players themselves. Well... not exactly.

I've been playing on a somewhat poorly adminned server for a few weeks. The server runs fine. It's just the owner doesn't play much and the mods aren't very active in trying to ban abusers. It was more heavily monitored when it was a younger server. But we're getting up into the 500+ days now. Anyways, I have run into a team of exploiters and dupers that are wrecking everyone on the server. The server pop went from averaging 25 in prime time to about 12. These guys are glitching through doors and walls via terrain or maybe minibike chassis glitches. I have caught them inside my base in sealed off rooms that were impossible to get into multiple times. They are always max wellness the next day, no matter how many times we kill them. They always have a pile of ammo, steel, steel upgrade, pile of rare resources on them. Doesn't seem like they have any concern for value of resources.

Decide I'm going to raid them and destroy all their resources that I can get at. They have a 25x25x30 block tall fully upgraded steel and upgraded steel base with a shallow moat and steel spikes. Perimeter claims outside the moat extend the protection zone out to about 30 blocks further. I have spent about 18 hours over the last week removing 8 perimeter claims late at night when they aren't online. Work on it a little bit each night. Doing it legitimately by mapping the claims out on the surface and carefully by entering beyond the claimed area and covering my tracks so they won't notice when they come back online. I removed the necessary, final 2 claims last night, which allowed me to frame up close enough to the base that I could easily jump in. But it's not going to be easy, because the whole base is steel and upgraded steel. I'm looking at a 3-4 hour raid in front of me to hit their loot room with a high level auger based on what I can see on the outside of the base.

I spend yesterday collecting mats (75 repair kits, steel, food/drink, backup pickaxe, gas etc), upgrading a good auger to higher purple quality, and prepping a forward operating base close to theirs. I'm ready.

I go to their base an hour ago and some other duper has exacted their own revenge on these turds while I was at work today by using hundreds of explosives to destroy all of the terrain surrounding their base. This revealed the gaps in their claims, since the explosives didn't destroy those blocks. The owners noticed this, and have now replaced the claims I removed and added another perimeter ring. All of my effort was for nothing.

Tell us all again how dupers only hurt dupers Madmole.

 

[TehRoach]

This has the potential to introduce an accepted form of duping where 2 allied factions simply raid each other in order to increase their stock piles.

Yes and maybe, this is why I added the "restoring all/most stolen items" clause.

It wouldn't take much to keep a data base of who has stolen what from who or put caps on the potential size of re-embercements.

A hokey scoreboard is simply that. It is meaningless.

It is only meaningless if you make it meaningless.

Stealing from other players rewards you with their resources and disadvantages other survivors because they are a weaker potential enemy.

There is not much point in raiding someone if they get to keep their stuff.

Let me get this straight.

You don't actually find any reward from the loot itself?

The only Reward for you is the fact that you have weakened your opponent?

I don't know about you,

but for me the idea of being the best at something is because you are the best, not because you are able to keep all the good competition in a cage where they can not compete!

being the best should be about improving yourself above your peers. (forward progression)

not just reducing your peer to below your level. (backwards progression)

This shouldn't be little league, where everyone gets a medal.

Sorry but this is a game, it simply is always going to be "little league".

 

[Clism]

As it stands for me the game is massive fun in pvp (just look at my over 3000 hours in pvp).

I really enjoy the game as it stands now.

I can only see improvements that could be made.

Some of the things said above, well, they're not exactly correct. Please be careful what you react to, as some folks have an interesting way of spinning things.

Like the post above, I've spent many hours raiding on high resistance servers. I'd say it's not for your average player who needs constant stimulus. It takes dedication, but then the person worked hard for their base, it should be hard to raid it.

At 24x resist we just hit a huge base with 5 people, and with good skills and tools it was wonderful, and didn't take overly long at all.

Also the guy above said "living underground like a rat...is this funny? Getting found by glitch only?" This is what I meant above, there are many statements that are "Spin" scattered throughout the 140 pages of statements. In this case what I mean is, finding hidden underground bases is fun, and keeping one hidden is even funner. Learning how to make the surface look natural is a bloody ART. And finding bases, finding the slightest damage from zombies digging, or seeing a screamer just standing there cause she's above the source of heat, or just sound. Figuring out where that base is, digging down until you hit a wall, figuring out the base layout by digging around, well ....it's a lot of fun. Some people I play with are just wizards at this, very smart about finding and raiding a hidden base. And I'm very good at maintaining a hidden one, and have yet to ever have one found. And getting caught, fighting, there's few other games anything close to this.

The glitch thing, well, there's tricks to that, too, and I mean tricks to not be found by glitch. And tricks not to create a glitch on the surface by accident.

I just raided a under water base the other day, and did a lot of it by myself, took 40 minutes per steel vault door. About 8 hours later I broke into the forge/loot room. I got a lot of stuff, and then two of the owners logged in. Massive fire fight. It was glorious fun. Should it take less time to steal all the stuff a team of people looted over a period of months? I do not think so.

As it stands i can't say enough good about the game. Hopefully TFP will make good improvements. Please don't ruin my favorite game. I could list for you all the great games ruined by listening to poor players who can't figure it out. Thanks.

 

[Gazz]

As it stands i can't say enough good about the game. Hopefully TFP will make good improvements. Please don't ruin my favorite game. I could list for you all the great games ruined by listening to poor players who can't figure it out. Thanks.

For the hardcore PVP player that may be fine and dandy but if TFP want to promote open world / sandbox / PVP then there needs to be a way for the somewhat more softcore to test the waters. =)

Bicycles were not ruined forever by the invention of the training wheels.

There are no weekly team meetings on how to best ruin the game. (these are all private meetings)

 

[Maharin]

There are no weekly team meetings on how to best ruin the game. (these are all private meetings)

So which of you is Pinky and which is the Brain?

 

[Poojam]

For the hardcore PVP player that may be fine and dandy but if TFP want to promote open world / sandbox / PVP then there needs to be a way for the somewhat more softcore to test the waters. =)Bicycles were not ruined forever by the invention of the training wheels.

There are no weekly team meetings on how to best ruin the game. (these are all private meetings)

Do you have any statistics on how the playerbase is playing the game? Like... 80% of players are playing on single player/privately hosted servers. Eliminate the console population from that too.

Why do you keep calling us hardcore PVP players, as if you are putting us in a category to foreshadow the oncoming dissapointment?

There already is a way to "test the waters" with the claim strength modifiers. Set the mux at 64x and go to town.

But you are operating on a playerbase's complaints when their negative experiences are 1 part tough-game-difficulty and 3 parts you-got-hacked/exploited and lost your stuff.

 

[Guppycur]

They are going to make the game to the base level player. That's a fact. What you want to argue for are options, and fixes.

 

[Poojam]

Yea they are. Which is what and how I enjoy playing it. Gazz is talking about changing that.

The only trouble is the proposed system (single scaling difficulty claim) will be very restrictive in terms of base design. It will also be very easily exploitable by the owner. As I understand it, the point was to create a disencentive to causing a lot of damage to a base. Well, everyone will just build a giant tower on one wood block. Defriend or get an ally to destroy that block. Then a large claimed structure will collapse causing the claim strength to spike thereby gaming the logic.

The only thing that is broke with the current system is that hacking and exploits have exacerbated the rate of raided bases combined with poor player expectations to trying out multiplayer.

To be clear, this is not even a pvp issue. This is a tower defense risk/reward game issue. Do the zombies care about not trashing the base too?

Or how about when teams claim a store, or a whole city with their indestructible claims? There is value in having destructible claims because valuable areas and resources can be lost and regained.

 

[Roland]

I think a big part of the issue is the inability to walk off a major setback that many players have. Rage quitting wouldn't be so universally understood if it didn't happen. Bloom explained to me that early game bases are easily destroyed but they take no real effort and that late game bases are too difficult to destroy but they take a huge amount of effort. His perspective seems to be that building an early wood or cobblestone fort or basic underground base might just take an evening of work and so no big deal if it is destroyed because you haven't lost much at all. From his perspective that is true (because he said it) but for a lot of people losing your base completely or having it re-claimed by somebody else is too much of a loss for them to want to continue. It doesn't matter that it was only one evening's work. It doesn't matter that it would be easier for them to start over and get back up to speed on THIS server since they still have their skills and such than it would be to start over somewhere else. Their feelings have been hurt and they now hate this server and won't play on it.

Both of you have admitted that this is true because you both have stated that on well run PvP servers guys like you will raid but not destroy an early base because you don't want to drive away the new players. Well the fact is that there are PvP players that are not so responsible as you and Bloom in wanting to build a good community on your server and not make things too disheartening for the new players. In fact there are a lot of those kinds of players out there and so unless TFP puts some kind of structure in place to safeguard the early bases of these new players they are going to quit. "Players I made rage quit" is not an official stat that is recorded in the game but it is a stat that some players love to increase.

I do think that these ideas about claimblocks should be options that can be chosen by server admins so that there can be servers where raiding can occur but total base destruction cannot or as Hal suggested total base recovery is something easily accomplished.

 

[Gazz]

Claim blocks could even be structured so that once it "grows" past a certain level the kid gloves come off and the base becomes raidable on a PVP server.

 

[Maharin]

Claim blocks could even be structured so that once it "grows" past a certain level the kid gloves come off and the base becomes raidable on a PVP server.

I was thinking that too... but then how to you stop the "younger" players from griefing the older players? Maybe have them only raidable by players that are also raidable themselves?

 

[Guppycur]

Older players will by nature be better prepared...

Various claim block types would add to the game regardless of any of this. I say go for it.

 

[Gazz]

I was thinking that too... but then how to you stop the "younger" players from griefing the older players? Maybe have them only raidable by players that are also raidable themselves?

Raid them with what? Stone axes and no mining skill? =)

Just an idea. No idea on the exact scaling.

 

[Maharin]

Raid them with what? Stone axes and no mining skill? =)
Just an idea. No idea on the exact scaling.

This all hinges on what triggers someone's base as raidable. You can get lucky and find a powerful weapon or tool even at a low level. Besides, I didn't say newbie, I just said younger, as-in they haven't hit the raidable trigger yet. Turn about is supposed to be fair play and all that.

If the settings were all configurable by the server manager then great, I'd say let it ride no matter what and let them figure out what works on their server and what doesn't. I think it is going to be impossible to make even most people happy with a single set of rules for PvP. This game is too awesome for one set of rules anyway.

This is a crafting game and some people will want to focus on that and include base building in PvP part of that. This is a survival game so some will want to focus on that and consider base destruction in PvP as part of the equation. But I'm not saying anything you don't already know, so, yeah.

Just put some of the ideas into play, make everything optional/configurable, let us test them out, and then adapt from there. As a community I'm sure we can provide adequate feedback. If not, raid our bases and boot us off your server.