"The PvP Update"
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
7daysguy
New member
I don't want to keep replying on this thread since I've already pretty much said my peace but, it's totally possible to start as a new player on a PvP server. We have players who start fresh and within a few days are raiding other players bases. Even if you're not into raiding, it would only take about a week to gear yourself up to being competitive. There's people who play for a month and have big bases, but poorly designed and can be raided. There's players who have something very solid in no time at all.
Play time is one part of the equation, but it's not everything. There's always newbs coming and going, if you look around you'll find all kinds of stuff they left behind. The map is big enough that you can hide long enough to get a good start, and on top of everything else when you die you don't lose your skills and levels so even if you die a lot you can easily grind your way up to where you're pulling purple items out of loot containers.
Even if you lose everything you can still get back into the game a lot quicker with your already developed character than you can starting on a new server. If you just lost items and not your base then you're laughing, items are easily replaced, base building takes forever.
Created a little link to make it easier to share this thread with players on your server.
http://tinyurl.com/7dayPVP
Should be easier for them to type in.
http://tinyurl.com/7dayPVP
Should be easier for them to type in.
NoamChomsky
New member
^^^^ i've spent most of my server playing time now on PVP servers and typically joining 1000+ day servers. as long as the map is 10k sized there's a ton of places to hide out.
only time i've really had a problem was one time i immediately got found by a couple of characters yapping in chinese who immediately homed in on my base because they clearly had all kinds of hacks going on. that was the last time i've played on a server that didn't ban CN.
i would suggest first fixing all the hacks, and then playtest it more.
and right now its nearly impossible to have an above-ground base in PVP so everyone pretty much just digs and hides, then people use xray clipping attacks to find them. bases need to be a bit more defensible so that it takes longer to break into them, and where you can leave a well-built base exposed for 24h and come back and it'll still be there (or you'll hear the auger running and can go hunt down the attackers).
steel bunkers also could be easier to build. right now to build a thick steel block that has no weak points, and which forces attackers to go through X blocks of steel requires sitting around and waiting for layers of reinforced concrete to dry. literally the game has a mechanic of watching paint dry. i sort of understand its to slow down rebuilding a base that is being attacked by zombies during horde night. but the fact that the timer on the blocks doesn't run if there's no active player in the region is pretty annoying. and there's always that one ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ block that takes forever to dry...
also right now its possible to level up your character and your armor to be able to survive fall damage from 200 blocks and there's tricks like the fact that zombie gore is infinitely soft. so you can summon a horde, have them drop down a pit and die on spikes, then hop on top of the gore and start attacking the spikes (or possibly if there's enough gore just hop across all the spikes and start augering doors and walls).
the fact that zombies hordes are so useful for griefing on servers and that they're unaffected by land claims is also a bigger issue on PVP servers. the goodies from horde night are good, but their use as an offensive weapond is a bit unbalanced.
Poojam
New member
By having an invulnerable claim, that removes all the skill from being a smart base builder/base raider doesn't it?
When raiding, I spend at least half of the time trying to deduce locations of claims and whether attacking the claim or raiding the claimed base is worth it. When designing a secure base, I sometimes spend days and challenge teammates to outwit my creations. Which is fun! It's rewarding and requires knowledge of how the claim system works and raiding player capabilities to do it well. It's, ya know, pretty sand boxy.
Not to brag, but there has been several occasions where a teammate has discovered a lapse in calculated overlapping claims that didn't actually overlap or an exposed claim that enables us to raid an otherwise prohibitively protected base. I've seen 10,000 block upgraded steel bases that were raided in 30 minutes because someone made a mistake. I particularly relish the thought that the game reality punishes the stupid and rewards the observant.
That said... I do think the recipe is just too cheap. I can farm enough iron in an hour to furnish over 100 claim blocks. By simply adjusting the recipe to take a moderate amount of resources, I think the "spamming" side of things will take care of itself.
I know this isn't a fully fleshed out system, but lets set creativity in base building/claim implementation aside. If you have that one dynamic, invulnerable land claim, how would you guard against stupid, but simple, base designs that are constructed to exhaust the raider? Doors are currently weaker than going through two blocks of the same class/upgrade level. Does that change? It seems if you try to promote calculated raiding, then this is where that conversation leads us. It reduces creativity and makes it easier to design a safer base. At the extreme, I have seen games that implement these things poorly. People will design large rectangular structures with serpentine hallways and dozens of doors. Where in the current system, we all would look at the giant rectangular structure and went... let's probe by going through the wall or ceiling in a couple of spots first.
Edit - I didn't think it was worth mentioning the obvious, but the 1 claim rule is also a severely limiting feature when it comes to base size too. What if I want to build a large rectangular base on a cliff? I don't need to more real estate in front or behind me, but I want to expand in two directions? Multiple claims allows owners to alter the shapes of their creations to suit their desires. I think by implementing a hard system with only 1 block, it would need to be of sufficiently diverse and modifiable nature to avoid hampering an otherwise great system.
I also design fake bases/loot rooms to distract or waste the time of potential raiders. Sometimes these are completely separate structures detached from the main base that appear more secure, but have nothing of value inside of them. This aspect would go out the window too.
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bloom_meister
Banned
Gazz those are truly awful options, I mean just terrible. Poojam is correct that by allowing multiple claims you enhance the defending players options on survivability of his base and his loot and can be a lot more creative with base design
bloom_meister
Banned
Agree totally
Roland is wrong here, pvp has been enhanced, multiple times, by the ability to grow your character.
If you like Rolands idea then hey, why not spawn in fully geared with the best weapons and a pre built fortress cause hey! 'HARD WORKS SUCKS RIGHT'' ?
bloom_meister
Banned
Wow a little unsure where to start with this one....
1. So the current system punishes people that play less? that's an interesting concept, lets explore it.
You choose to play for (lets go big) 4 hours a day and more on a weekend cause you really like the game. Player B who we will call 'nolifeloser' in your terms, plays 10 hours per day and obviously does not work, could be retired, unemployed, ill or whatever.
You choose to spend the majority of your day working, which is productive, gets you money which you use to pay your bills and feed and look after your family. 'nolifeloser' either doesn't need to work or doesn't care to or simply cannot.
So you want the game to value your 4 hours as being MORE valuable than his 10 hours and in your example him spending 10 hours to raid a full steel base is punishing you....even though he spent 10 hours of his life doing it while you were out earning money and doing other productive stuff. What on earth gives you the right to devalue the time commitment he spent or to say that your time is worth more than his? In the real world those who spend more time on their careers and work tend to earn more and be more successful, this is how life works. Perhaps you want a socialist nirvana where everyone is equal no matter their efforts?
Either way your logic is offensive
2. High level players can kill low level players
Well welcome to life (again!). People who work out are stronger than you, people who run for a hobby are faster and fitter than you and yes, people who train in the arts of warfare are deadlier than you. Stop whining and try, you know, competing?
3. People who start before you do have an advantage.
Err....yes, and this is wrong because?.......do you whine that the CEO is paid more and has more leave and a hot wife because he has been doing his job for 40 years and 'started before you' ? maybe you should complain that those ranchers in the mid west have a 100k acre ranch is unfair because their family got their in the 1800's and 'got there before you' ?
Your point is simply ridiculous.
4. Solo is weaker than a group
You already know my answer right? .................although a group is stronger you can still fight off much higher numbers if you design well and play smart, I am currently fighting off a team of 4 (solo) who have been trying to raid me for a week, and btw i work full time. But normally yes, more people can defeat less people, its kind of a rule of nature and yet this appears to be a suprise for you..
As to your last point, you moved on because you are weak and cannot compete, its called ragequit for a reason.
Roland
Moderator
I think this is a preference thing. I will say that upon further reflection and reading I agree that a somewhat shallower vertical progression would probably be okay but I also think that there will be plenty of people who will not look at two weeks of hiding and building up before emerging to compete as something that will hold their interest. I have no idea which type of player is the majority but like Jax said you get quite a lot of PvP players across several games crying out for a more level playing field and doing away with features that create such huge margins in relative player power.
Now I get that 7 Days to Die PvP doesn't have to be like the rest and this game can have its own brand of PvP that bucks the norm and maintains a strong player progression and if I am wrong that would be a cool distinction to have and our servers will be robust with 1000s of players. But if I'm not wrong then 7 Days to Die PvP will just be a niche experience that only caters to a small segment of all PvP players and our PvP community will stay small.
Roland
Moderator
Games are meant to be fun and competitive and not necessarily a simulation of the dog eat dog world of Darwinian philosophy. The former is what the typical majority of gamers enjoy as a default version and the latter is what hardcore niche gamers enjoy by changing settings and/or modding. This is a good discussion of different ideas but it doesn't need you calling other people ridiculous or inexplicably feeling offended by someone who can't play the game as much as someone else. Keep things civil. Disagree but don't demean other ideas or your voice will go missing from this discussion.
Personally, I think you have great ideas. Now work on your delivery...
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Poojam
New member
I guess to each their own. But what you classify as a problem... I would call the intended design.
#1 - I don't even know how to respond to this. The whole game is an investment in time management & survival simulation. You make choices that affect your survival constantly. Why shouldn't raiding or durability of base defenses be reflective of the time effort that went into it?
#2 - It is not griefing. It's working exactly as intended. The risk of a high level player raiding your wooden base is exactly the encouragement to drive players to level and progress in the game. It's the reward for the time spent on character development. It mimics the survival nature of the game?! Once you truly understand and embrace that zombies and starvation aren't the only thing you have to worry about, it becomes fun. It also opens up bandit/nomadic play styles for players that can adequately "survive" without even building a base to begin with. They just steal from the farmers...which is awesome!
#3 - I mostly disagree. This is only true to the extent that players may have already land claimed/destroyed crates in the stores. It does force your hand to level differently than maybe what you would otherwise plan. Perhaps it would be better to venture further out, build up, or perhaps gamble and raid others earlier than you would have otherwise done to get rare items.
#4 - Exactly. And a solo player should be at a disadvantage compared to a group. If you are playing solo and getting overrun by groups/clans, then you need to form an alliance or find a different server. Your strategy is a losing one.
You sound like a solo player that enjoys the crafting/base building/mining aspects of the game. Once you have all your ducks in a row and are high enough level, you probably want to engage others and fight sporadically. Which is fine. We need those people on PVP servers too. But I think you are lacking a lot of perspective on what is valuable for PVP, and particularly why it is so.
Poojam
New member
Did you remove a post? I don't see the source of that quote.
I wouldn't call us hardcore niche gamers. We are just playing the game exactly as it is designed.
The person you are defending is promoting the idea of neutering the game into a zero progression, protect my base while i'm at work, make me be able to defend against 4 players, eliminate the ability for advanced players to hurt me.... weird weird environment in a thread to talk about how we can make PVP better. None of these concepts are true to the scope of 7dtd, and it just comes off as noise. It sounds like polluted entitlement thinking where someone has literally gotten beat. If anything, designing a game around those ideas is catering to a hardcore niche gamer mentality.
Guppycur
Well-known member
PvP by Guppy
LCB's are dumb. They cause players to scale faster towards invulnerability, and just don't make sense in a PvP setting. Not online to defend your base? Tough. Why should people suffer because of your schedule?
Game mechanics like skills, are what makes this game not UT. Removing them to make this a straight shooter is dumb.
Leveled loot is already a dumb idea, but further exacerbated by PvP.
The current "not really" random spawning is dumb.
Death penalties as they are, are dumb. The victor quickly stays the victor, since the loser gets weaker and weaker far too quickly.
PvP should be Dead is Dead, and Drop All, to make it fair, otherwise it's dumb.
Even the level 200 purple guy will think twice before challenging a level 1 bow guy, if the bow guy actually has a chance to totally wreck his world; he would be dumb otherwise.
LCB's are dumb. They cause players to scale faster towards invulnerability, and just don't make sense in a PvP setting. Not online to defend your base? Tough. Why should people suffer because of your schedule?
Game mechanics like skills, are what makes this game not UT. Removing them to make this a straight shooter is dumb.
Leveled loot is already a dumb idea, but further exacerbated by PvP.
The current "not really" random spawning is dumb.
Death penalties as they are, are dumb. The victor quickly stays the victor, since the loser gets weaker and weaker far too quickly.
PvP should be Dead is Dead, and Drop All, to make it fair, otherwise it's dumb.
Even the level 200 purple guy will think twice before challenging a level 1 bow guy, if the bow guy actually has a chance to totally wreck his world; he would be dumb otherwise.
Roland
Moderator
I didn't remove any posts. If you click the little double arrow in the heading of any quote it will link you to the original post the quote is referring to.
Also I'm not defending the guy's ideas. I was simply refuting Bloom's assumption that his own particular view as he laid it out is the norm and anything else is ridiculous. That is not the same as agreeing with the other guy. I admitted that I was probably wrong about throwing out all progression and making everyone equal. I do think that some of the inequalities in the current game aren't going to work without some adjustment. Guppy mentioned wellness leading to a weak gets weaker spiral. That's one. The vertical progression is too deep in my opinion. It needs to be lessened and the speed of going from basic to maxed needs to be increased. Leveled loot just cannot work when things are competitive. The low level guy has to have a decent chance of getting a purple sniper that could possibly even the odds a bit between him and a high level player. Things like that give hope and bring excitement to new players.
I do think that many people would enjoy joining a server in progress if they can get up to speed and competitive rather quickly and have a decent chance of scavenging good loot that will help decrease the gap.
Roland
Moderator
I fixed the quote to remove any inflammatory language. Now back to topic please. Seeing how threads like these have derailed into PvP vs nonPvP and hardcore vs casuals insulting each other I will not tolerate any language that is insulting or disrespectful of opposing ideas. If someone doesn't know how to disagree without being disagreeable they better not post.
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What about a single claim block that is indestructible but needs nodes to extend its claim zone and the nodes are destructible? Then you could have different nodes that add different abilities. It would be like adding perks to your base and allow for more customization and also provide the infiltration feeling of removing layers of protection.
Guppycur
Well-known member
I see it as a role play of sorts.
You log in and have stuff. Everything you have is fair game; why should there be a special block that makes your stuff not fair game? Just doesn't make sense to me.
You log off, it's as if you "wandered far enough away so you can't get killed", but if you didn't take your stuff with you, too bad for you. It's still fair game. Don't want someone to destroy your base and take your stuff? Stay logged in. Can't because you have a kid/job/life/whatever? Then maybe PvP isn't for you. Why should other players have to suffer? Just doesn't make sense to me.
If you have a lot of time invested into a PvP server then you already don't have to worry about this happening to you, so why bother catering to the casual players? <--- This is not an insult, it is a comparison of effort put in by people who are on a lot and people who are not.
...they don't have a lot of time invested into the server, so they shouldn't reap the rewards of having had a lot of time invested, i.e. block protection.
If you /really/ want to make it so that players can keep their stuff safe, then just increase the backpack size so they can log out with their stuff and be done with it.
LCB's are used as punishment far too often as it is, they don't need to be in a game that really IS "Survival of the fittest". Gotta disagree with ya on that one big R.
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AND AS ALWAYS, the most important thing is to find the right server for you.
You log in and have stuff. Everything you have is fair game; why should there be a special block that makes your stuff not fair game? Just doesn't make sense to me.
You log off, it's as if you "wandered far enough away so you can't get killed", but if you didn't take your stuff with you, too bad for you. It's still fair game. Don't want someone to destroy your base and take your stuff? Stay logged in. Can't because you have a kid/job/life/whatever? Then maybe PvP isn't for you. Why should other players have to suffer? Just doesn't make sense to me.
If you have a lot of time invested into a PvP server then you already don't have to worry about this happening to you, so why bother catering to the casual players? <--- This is not an insult, it is a comparison of effort put in by people who are on a lot and people who are not.
...they don't have a lot of time invested into the server, so they shouldn't reap the rewards of having had a lot of time invested, i.e. block protection.
If you /really/ want to make it so that players can keep their stuff safe, then just increase the backpack size so they can log out with their stuff and be done with it.
LCB's are used as punishment far too often as it is, they don't need to be in a game that really IS "Survival of the fittest". Gotta disagree with ya on that one big R.
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AND AS ALWAYS, the most important thing is to find the right server for you.
Maharin
Well-known member
That has a whole lot of potential. Maybe make it so that the inner one is only indestructible so long as it is surrounded by other claim blocks? Once you've breached the outer perimeter you can take on the central area. Have the distance from the central claim block be the factor that determines the multiplier that that claim block gives to things built around it. The farther you build from center the weaker your defenses.
Maharin
Well-known member
Except that this is a worldwide game and some people will be many hours (12+ in some cases) apart by the real world clock. And some of us have to work.
I agree that permanent invincibility is too much but what about a timer? If you are logged out for more than 24 hours your base loses invincibility?