PC The opponents aren't zombies anymore!

[Postmortem]

And for OP give a game a try and learn the new game mechanics - i got comfortable with a game at the very start with b195 when it was quite brutal encountering 3 irradiated ferrals in the back room of Pop'n'Pills for example, but after you get accustomed to their AI you can exploit that for your benefit.

True.

But I simply don't WANT to exploit their AI for my benefit, because that misses the point of the game. I work as a software developer myself, so all day I think about algorithms. When I play a game then in my free time, the last thing I want to have to think about is exploiting AI pathfinding algorithms.

The game should be about gameplay, about the immersion in a believable world of zombie apocalypse (as believable as zombies go), and not algorithm theory.

 

[unclevlad]

I am very impressed and very happy with the zombie AI and am looking forward to the balancing and enhancements.

Right now, there is very little noise - forced randomness - in the pathing. As others have pointed out, this always leads to zombies correctly determining the optimal path (under their rules) to the player. I am going to assume that as the AI is enhanced, more variable path evaluation will come into play. That should make the zombies a little less subject to easy herding.

Having done this type of math and implementation, this is always a series of progressions. The AI needs to start with perfect knowledge in order to debug that aspect, then noise can be introduced and balanced. This also leads to the potential for smarter and dumber zombies, and should provide a basis for the much-desired bandits and other mobile NPCs.

 

[Shiana]

Even a mouse in a maze will eventually find its way out.

Sorry for the crosspost, but i just couldn't resist:

 

[PinkLed5]

I don't have a problem with the new AI pathing. The pre-a17 zombies were just too easy to avoid. At least in a17 they pose a real threat. I would argue that 7D2D is MORE of a zombie game now that I actually have to be worried about them.

 

[Frotus]

I am very impressed and very happy with the zombie AI and am looking forward to the balancing and enhancements.
Right now, there is very little noise - forced randomness - in the pathing. As others have pointed out, this always leads to zombies correctly determining the optimal path (under their rules) to the player. I am going to assume that as the AI is enhanced, more variable path evaluation will come into play. That should make the zombies a little less subject to easy herding.

Having done this type of math and implementation, this is always a series of progressions. The AI needs to start with perfect knowledge in order to debug that aspect, then noise can be introduced and balanced. This also leads to the potential for smarter and dumber zombies, and should provide a basis for the much-desired bandits and other mobile NPCs.

Agree - Zombies should have A.D.D.

I remember in an early alpha, the zombies would get distracted by a wild animal and chase it instead of the player sometimes. Things like that. Zombie gets distracted by loud noises other zombies make when breaking things, etc. They should be super focused when a meal is close to them and distracted easily when there is work to be done to get the meal.

 

[Damocles]

Make some zombies weak, dumb (direct path) and slow.

Some strong, dumb and fast.

Some strong, smart (smart A* path), and slow

Some weak, smart and fast.

And all of them strong, smart and fast on horde night...

---

If there are bandits at one point, the current "perfect" path finding will be very believable for them.

 

[Krougal]

Agree - Zombies should have A.D.D.
I remember in an early alpha, the zombies would get distracted by a wild animal and chase it instead of the player sometimes. Things like that. Zombie gets distracted by loud noises other zombies make when breaking things, etc. They should be super focused when a meal is close to them and distracted easily when there is work to be done to get the meal.

Well I did have a wolf help me with a wandering horde last week. Granted it just happened that the horde was between me and the wolf. Of course the zeds only stopped coming to me if the wolf was attacking them.

 

[LuckyStar]

Make some zombies weak, dumb (direct path) and slow.Some strong, dumb and fast.

Some strong, smart (smart A* path), and slow

Some weak, smart and fast.

And all of them strong, smart and fast on horde night...

---

If there are bandits at one point, the current "perfect" path finding will be very believable for them.

I modded this very thing into A16.

Made a bunch of custom Soldiers all with unique characteristics.

I can't, of course, make anything like what TFP can but I see what you're getting at and I feel you're right on track.

Having zombies with very different behaviours and characteristics makes for an exciting game.

It's hard though!

Builders are going to hate it! I'll tell you that right now.

It means you've really got to be clever with designs and some things just won't work.

Still... I agree with you 100%.

 

[PoppaTot]

I modded this very thing into A16.

Made a bunch of custom Soldiers all with unique characteristics.

I can't, of course, make anything like what TFP can but I see what you're getting at and I feel you're right on track.

Having zombies with very different behaviours and characteristics makes for an exciting game.

It's hard though!

Builders are going to hate it! I'll tell you that right now.

It means you've really got to be clever with designs and some things just won't work.

Still... I agree with you 100%.

I'll put it on record now, I'm a builder and feel that I would love that if balanced correctly.

 

[LuckyStar]

I'll put it on record now, I'm a builder and feel that I would love that if balanced correctly.

See now THAT is what people need to hear right now!!

I happen to agree with you.

I managed to build this [legit, scavenged and mined everything... on a modded server of course].

Even with those NASTY soldiers, some who did x8 block damage, I still built some really fun stuff.

It worked because I put in probably 100 hours testing it and made it just right. [For my playstyle that is.]

Yeah you're right. If it's balanced correctly, it's not only good for Builders, it's inspiring!

 

[JDogg126]

I suspect the problem is that in order to have game challenge, you either need to have "smarter" zombies, tougher zombies (we don't seem to want bullet-sponges...or at least not many of them), or more zombies. I think most of us want that last option....but I'm guessing it's in the realm of "not possible" due to the game's limitations.
I completely agree that smart zombies are meh. I'd love to take refuge up on a roof, and see their masses just keep building below. Sure, they're a turkey-shoot, but how much ammo do I have? The sound of my gunshots bringing still more. They're not smart enough to work together to break down the doors I boarded up, but now and then one of them will crash against the door, making me wonder how long they will hold.

I think our game lacks the "ZPUs" to give us the option we really want.

-Morloc

What I want is:



But I don't think I'll ever see that in this game.

I'm okay with the game compensating for the inability to give raw numbers of zombies with more powerful versions of zombies.

But I think the zombie AI needs to have a different level of AI for each type of zombie.

Speed shouldn't be the only difference in zombies.

 

[LuckyStar]

What I want is:
View attachment 26442

But I don't think I'll ever see that in this game.

I'm okay with the game compensating for the inability to give raw numbers of zombies with more powerful versions of zombies.

But I think the zombie AI needs to have a different level of AI for each type of zombie.

Speed shouldn't be the only difference in zombies.

I made a modded server in A16 with increased numbers.

We:

- Removed ALL lighting from POIS

- Removed all large POIS

- Removed anything decorative [signs]

- Removed almost all grass and made everything else more sparse

- Replaced High render/resource blocks with ones more resource friendly

- Some other tweaks

And it worked!

It looked ...I don't want to say terrible... but not good.

We did, however, get Chunk Spawning up really high.

The wandering hordes were huge.

Blood Moon wasn't much different, that we never got right.

I'll tell you though, going into a town and having to fight off 50 zombies was awesome!!!

It's more for kicks, I don't know that I'd want to play like that all the time but it was a nice change.

 

[RantingMonkey]

I'm not a fan of the idea of different intelligence for each zombie type, brainless is brainless. Stronger, a bit faster (I like slow scary zombies), even more hit points I understand. One type being smarter seems wrong to me.

 

[Damocles]

I'm not a fan of the idea of different intelligence for each zombie type, brainless is brainless. Stronger, a bit faster (I like slow scary zombies), even more hit points I understand. One type being smarter seems wrong to me.

A game where the opponents are very predictable, also makes them easy to cheeze (trapping them in an easy to avoid dead end), and in the long term boring.

Thats why there needs to be variety in their abilities.

Having the knowledge that only some of them can get around your simple defences, creates a different setting, and makes the world more scary.

Not every zombie should have perfect pathfinding abilities though, but if some have it, the world feels way more dangerous.

(in the Walking Dead there is a reason that there are not ONLY zombies as danger. There are numerous bandits and enemy humans that oppose the protagonists. Else the story would get boring, and there is only so much to iterate on peoples personal problems with their family or old life.)

 

[LuckyStar]

A game where the opponents are very predictable, also makes them easy to cheeze (trapping them in an easy to avoid dead end), and in the long term boring.Thats why there needs to be variety in their abilities.

Having the knowledge that only some of them can get around your simple defences, creates a different setting, and makes the world more scary.

Not every zombie should have perfect pathfinding abilities though, but if some have it, the world feels way more dangerous.

(in the Walking Dead there is a reason that there are not ONLY zombies as danger. There are numerous bandits and enemy humans that oppose the protagonists. Else the story would get boring, and there is only so much to iterate on peoples personal problems with their family or old life.)

YUP!

This 100%.

Very well said.

 

[Guppycur]

I've said forever that the threat of zombies should be an environmental one, not a protagonist one, and that survival should be the real threat.

...there's only so much you can do with zombies before they go from predictable and manageable to cartoony and over powered.

Hunger, elements, other people... These should be what plagues you.

But, I get it, horde nights yadda yadda yadda...

 

[FranticDan]

What bothers me is that when it comes to pathing to the player, the zombies know the EXACT route to take to get from the ground to the 4th floor. Yet, unless you know that building's layout, it would take you many wrong turns before finally reaching where the player WAS, now the player is on the 7th floor, yet the zombies still know EXACTLY where that player is. Do they have infrared vision or something?

Edit: On top of that, sleeper zombies don't make any noise until you attack them or they attack you (they only make noise if they are attacking blocks) so you don't even know they are there until they come into view or they attack you from behind :/

 

[Frotus]

A game where the opponents are very predictable, also makes them easy to cheeze (trapping them in an easy to avoid dead end), and in the long term boring.
(in the Walking Dead there is a reason that there are not ONLY zombies as danger. There are numerous bandits and enemy humans that oppose the protagonists. Else the story would get boring, and there is only so much to iterate on peoples personal problems with their family or old life.)

Haha. This is why I had to stop watching Walking Dead. The zombies are mindless and predictable, but somehow people keep finding ways to get themselves infected. It's like people are drawn to doing dumb things to get bit. They can control a horde of thousands and thousands of zombies, but can't clear a small store without getting one or two people killed... ;-)

 

[LuckyStar]

I've said forever that the threat of zombies should be an environmental one, not a protagonist one, and that survival should be the real threat.
...there's only so much you can do with zombies before they go from predictable and manageable to cartoony and over powered.

Hunger, elements, other people... These should be what plagues you.

But, I get it, horde nights yadda yadda yadda...

The author of The Walking Dead series would agree with you.

Those books are about the interaction between humans.

THEY are the real enemy and the zombies, like you say, are just part of the environment.

The real question is, how do you translate that to a game like 7DTD which is primarily a SP game?

 

[Crocodile]

Zombies was never be real Zombies in this game. Simple fact - 7DTD so-called Zombies can "Bleed". Somehow. And, they also can DIE from bleeding. Zombies can bleed and die from blood loss...

And, those Zombies can feel the pain. We all know, how they playing "hurt" animation when you hit them hard. Zombies, that can feel pain and bleed...

Frozen Zombies, that can move, despite fact that they are frozen, and bleed as well. Bleed with ice I guess.

Also, there is Zombie cop, that filled with some explosive substance. He can spill acid, that mean he filled with it, but we cannot detonate this explosive acid, just by shooting at this Zombie. He can trigger this explosive matter by his wish, before his death. So, Zombie cop knows that he is dead, but can die again, and he know when he is near death, and can trigger himself to explode. And he can bleed too. Despite fact that he filled with explosive acid in his body vessels.

Zombies in 7DTD not hunting animals, animals hunting and killing Zombies instead. Zombies meat fresh and tasty for animals, especially flesh of frozen and acid cop.

Paralized Zombies. We all know this guy, crawler, that in a17 actually have legs. But, he is crawling instead. That mean that he is paralized, and cannot feel or use his lower part of body.

Zombies that can breeze. Screamers use their throat to call another Zombies, this is mean that they can breeze, cos for multiple screams, they must to fill lungs with air again.

So, all those creatures in 7DTD cannot be call Zombies at all.

Please, never use word Zombie about those poor paralized, bleeding, breezing, feeling, defensless against animals creatures again. Mutants they are, and this is mutants - survival game.