The LBD theyre introducing isnt what I wanted or had in mind.

It wouldn't be acceptable to many because it would replace what perks do now
For everything? We're not thinking either/or, are we? There are way more skills in attributes than weapon skills. In fact, I thought the light, medium and heavy armor belonged under attributes. Cooking, not so much, because you don't have to be Hercules to cook breakfast. There's the thin point distribution thing if you want want wear light armor while wielding a sledgehamme, but I'd hazard to guess you won't really want to do that if your thing is up close and personal.

But, again, mechanics aren't so much my thing. So, have on.
 
Consider something for a moment... even among the pro-LBD group, there is a very wide spectrum of views on what kind of LBD is good and what is bad. If the pro-LBD group can't even agree one what is good, how do you expect TFP to make any system, hybrid or otherwise, that will appeal to everyone even just within the LBD crowd? You see a lot of posts that say they want LBD without giving any specifics about how they think it should be. Most of those same people would then end up complaining about any LBD system that TFP were to add because it "isn't [sic] what I wanted or had in mind." And, yes, even those opposed to LBD often don't give any specific details about what they want. Many just leave it at magazines being acceptable.

If people want something, it helps to give specific details about what they want. Just saying they want LBD means little because there are many forms LBD can take, including the old version this game had that many pro-LBD players have said they don't think was good. If people start discussing how they want LBD to be in the game, I think you'll find that even the pro-LBD group will start arguing about what is good or bad about it. It shows that even if people agree about something "in general", they can still have very different views about implementation. What one person likes, another won't like. TFP will never find a version of LBD (full, hybrid, or none) that appeals to everyone. They can do whatever they want with it and they will still have people complaining about it all the time. It makes it kind of pointless to even try adding something they didn't want to add, when they alienate those who don't want it and only make a percentage of those who did want it happy while leaving the rest still being upset. The best they could do is make it optional, with a variety of choices, including none, so players can pick what they is closest to what they want. The problem with that is that is that those end up being very different balances that would all have to be managed, which becomes a nightmare to deal with.

Why are you always answering with a question? :unsure:
Are you provoking? Are you trolling?

And, most important of all... would you be satisfied if the answer to all your questions is 42? :unsure:
Heh. I've mostly stopped replying to him because of this. It's a shame since he often makes good points. But too often it's just nitpicking choice of wording and I don't feel like wasting my time on that anymore.
 
Most of those same people would then end up complaining about any LBD system that TFP were to add because it "isn't [sic] what I wanted or had in mind."
Objection, speculative.

People rarely know what they want, and when they get it, they'll be disappointed anyway. I dunno, man, I don't think we should expect a perfectly laid out plan from random groups of players, but hearing them out doesn't hurt..?

But too often it's just nitpicking choice of wording and I don't feel like wasting my time on that anymore.
Well, the moment I do a joke about "punching rocks" I get read literally ... seems to happen to all of us :P
(feel free to ignore me, though, I know I can be annoying ;) )
 
Objection, speculative.

People rarely know what they want, and when they get it, they'll be disappointed anyway. I dunno, man, I don't think we should expect a perfectly laid out plan from random groups of players, but hearing them out doesn't hurt..?
Speculative, yet we are in a thread that specifically is about how the implementation TFP is talking about isn't what they wanted? And hear them out? I pointed out that many of the people posting that they want LBD don't give specifics about how that should be implemented and just say they want it or that they don't like magazines or TFP's choices for LBD, none of which means much. I was saying they should give details so that we *can* hear them out.
 
Sorry, but I don't understand this point... what is the alternative to mining? :unsure: (honest question)
*grabs a whiteboard*
All right, class, here we go:
So, at the dawn of time, people didn't have shiet. Some of them wanted some shiet. Some decided to dig into the ground for some of the shiet they wanted. Some of them ran in to nearby stores to grab all of the shiet they wanted, whether they payed for it or not is not relevant. Some of them just looted trash for whatever little shiet they could find and were fine with that. Heck, some even decided, they don't actually need any shiet.

What's the shiet you get from mining?
Gunpowder => get your ammo from Infestations.
Steel => Build less, you don't need a single bar to survive
Concrete => see above.
Lead? See the first one.

You can probably figure out the rest?
 
Sorry, but I don't understand this point... what is the alternative to mining? :unsure: (honest question)
You can avoid mining, but that isn't a realistic choice for most players....

You can scrap cars for gas and find it elsewhere and keep moving further and further from your base to find more. It works. But if a person doesn't want to constantly scrap cars to keep up with their gas needs, it isn't a good choice for them. But it can be done.

You can get iron from scrapping cars or many other items in the game. If you don't want to build your own base and upgrade it to steel, you can get away with not needing as much iron and it wouldn't be necessary to mine. But for the players who want to build their own bases and don't want tiny bases, it isn't a great choice. But it can be done.

The same for iron needed for building weapons and vehicles and other things.

Other ores are often not necessary to mine for most players, though someone who wants to use only coal for workstations might not enjoy trying to find enough without mining, and someone who wants to craft a ton of ammo might not enjoy trying to find enough nitrate without mining. Again, it can be done, but wouldn't be a great choice for those players.

In short, you *can* avoid mining entirely. But unless you want to deal with the other ways necessary to get what you need, which usually take more time, at least in the long run, it won't be a good choice. Mining isn't forced, but it is not something most players are likely to want to ignore unless they are in a group where someone else does it for them.
 
But, again, mechanics aren't so much my thing. So, have on.
I don't think that moving every weapon skill in the general tab and having them use LBD is about game mechanics.
In my opinion it's something much more radical, that would fundamentally change the vision for the game.

Right now we have what some may call "classes" thanks to the attributes and skill points.
What the LBD supporters are proposing is basically to let the player be anything he wants just by doing whatever he wants.

That's fine, but it's a very different type of RPG game and makes specializations unimportant.
So I guess I'm not much against LBD itself, but more against the fact that LBD will make the choice of specialization irrelevant.

Take the overhaul mod Darkness Falls for example, they used LBD for a wide range of weapon skills (and more) and they also kept the separate classes. It's a nice mod and this choice kind of works, but when I played it I couldn't shake the feeling that regardless of my class I was still a jack of all trades and had no real limitations. I'm not saying that's bad or good, I'm just saying that's very different from the current class/attribute system.
 
Okay, last reply to you in this because it isn't worth it... you said we should hear people out. They need to say something for us to hear them out. If they don't know what they want, there's little reason for them to comment on anything. But whatever.
 
So I guess I'm not much against LBD itself, but more against the fact that LBD will make the choice of specialization irrelevant.
Forgetting Elixir wants to have a word. There are plenty of ways of create a specialization, be it limited gear (can't be a sniper without a rifle), limited abilities (like DnD classes, can't even wield the greatsword without being a warrior), limited improvements to abilities (current 7dtd skill system), limited time to learn something (LBD) .. this game doesn't like limits though.
 
*grabs a whiteboard*
All right, class, here we go:
So, at the dawn of time, people didn't have shiet. Some of them wanted some shiet. Some decided to dig into the ground for some of the shiet they wanted. Some of them ran in to nearby stores to grab all of the shiet they wanted, whether they payed for it or not is not relevant. Some of them just looted trash for whatever little shiet they could find and were fine with that. Heck, some even decided, they don't actually need any shiet.

What's the shiet you get from mining?
Gunpowder => get your ammo from Infestations.
Steel => Build less, you don't need a single bar to survive
Concrete => see above.
Lead? See the first one.

You can probably figure out the rest?
Wait, so the alternative to MINING for you is to get stuff that you actually need to CRAFT??
Sorry man, but you are not making much sense.

I'll leave you to your imaginary world where Wood, Stone, Clay, Lead, Brass, Coal, KNO3 and Shale are found abundantly in trash.
I guess you were right after all, I never realized that mining is useless until now! :unsure:
Post automatically merged:

You can avoid mining, but that isn't a realistic choice for most players....

You can scrap cars for gas and find it elsewhere and keep moving further and further from your base to find more. It works. But if a person doesn't want to constantly scrap cars to keep up with their gas needs, it isn't a good choice for them. But it can be done.

You can get iron from scrapping cars or many other items in the game. If you don't want to build your own base and upgrade it to steel, you can get away with not needing as much iron and it wouldn't be necessary to mine. But for the players who want to build their own bases and don't want tiny bases, it isn't a great choice. But it can be done.

The same for iron needed for building weapons and vehicles and other things.

Other ores are often not necessary to mine for most players, though someone who wants to use only coal for workstations might not enjoy trying to find enough without mining, and someone who wants to craft a ton of ammo might not enjoy trying to find enough nitrate without mining. Again, it can be done, but wouldn't be a great choice for those players.

In short, you *can* avoid mining entirely. But unless you want to deal with the other ways necessary to get what you need, which usually take more time, at least in the long run, it won't be a good choice. Mining isn't forced, but it is not something most players are likely to want to ignore unless they are in a group where someone else does it for them.
The problem with your point (and Flu's point) is that you completely ignore Early Game where you don't even have a Wrench to scrap stuff.
Also, as you said, the compared quantities between Mining and Looting/Scrapping for most ores are ridiculous in my opinion.
 
LBD already exists and has existed for several versions now.

You kill zombies, you get exp. You loot things, you get exp. You salvage/harvest things, you get exp. You build/upgrade things, you get exp. Exp gives levels that you can spend however you want. You literally learn by doing, by playing the game.

Skyrim-esque LBD is boring, monotonous, uninspired and easy to abuse. We have something that is essentially learning by doing yet it's not enough for people. They want to "progress" by staring at a wall and spamming something instead of actually playing the game. 99% of arguments over this are purely subjective. TFP's implementations are just as valid as anything else. There's plenty of mods out there for people who refuse to appreciate what exists. I see the devs appealing to the LBD crowd as pointless since we already have a form of LBD that works great and still allows player choice/convenience.
 
Wood, Stone, Clay, Lead, Brass, Coal, KNO3 and Shale are found abundantly in trash.
Mining is just the means to an end; you can avoid the ends, and/or find alternative means:
Wood; you might want some for cooking, but that's not exactly mandatory. You can one-shot sticks in the world with a Q1 stone axe, skills mean nothing.
Stone? Cobblestone / cement. You don't Need either in any significant amounts, cobble is essentially free at the trader.
Clay? Cobblestone (above) and forge. You don't even Need a forge and you loot quite a bit from just straight up trash.
Lead, brass, coal => all are just ammo, you don't Need ammo, and you get a box full of extras by just reaching the T6 stuff.
Nitrate, farm plots? Not Necessary
Shale? Just buy the gas from the vendor, they have 5-10k per reset, it's relatively cheap.

For understanding the argument, you'll need to understand the difference between "need" and "want". If you want to mine for some of the ends, you want to mine; just not at a crappy starting level. But this is only a want. Alternatives exist.
 
Forgetting Elixir wants to have a word. There are plenty of ways of create a specialization, be it limited gear (can't be a sniper without a rifle), limited abilities (like DnD classes, can't even wield the greatsword without being a warrior), limited improvements to abilities (current 7dtd skill system), limited time to learn something (LBD) .. this game doesn't like limits though.
Riamus is right, you're always nitpicking and finding extreme cases to support your counter points. It seems you don't want to have a honest conversation (at least that's my impression), or maybe you are just not really personally invested in whatever choice TFP will make so you argue for the sake of arguing.

Forgetting Elixir is a cop-out from standard gameplay that the devs put there for people who realize mid game that they chose the "wrong class".
I don't see it really as part of the standard class mechanics. It's borderline cheat-mode to me, but many games add this sort of backdoor.

7D2D has tied attributes to both weapons and perks because choosing your main attribute is intended to be an important choice.
People who "game the game" don't need, want or feel that the attributes are PART of the game, they just see them as obstacles.

However, in life every single one of us has limits and specializations.

For example, you specialize in bantering, you took a Master Degree in Bantering and also a Minor Degree in Evasion.
So, like I said, you chose a main specialization and a secondary one, and put your skill points there during the course of your life.

Was it a good choice? I don't know. But just in case, I have some Forgetting Elixir I could sell you for the right price... ;)
 
Mining is just the means to an end; you can avoid the ends, and/or find alternative means:
Wood; you might want some for cooking, but that's not exactly mandatory. You can one-shot sticks in the world with a Q1 stone axe, skills mean nothing.
Stone? Cobblestone / cement. You don't Need either in any significant amounts, cobble is essentially free at the trader.
Clay? Cobblestone (above) and forge. You don't even Need a forge and you loot quite a bit from just straight up trash.
Lead, brass, coal => all are just ammo, you don't Need ammo, and you get a box full of extras by just reaching the T6 stuff.
Nitrate, farm plots? Not Necessary
Shale? Just buy the gas from the vendor, they have 5-10k per reset, it's relatively cheap.

For understanding the argument, you'll need to understand the difference between "need" and "want". If you want to mine for some of the ends, you want to mine; just not at a crappy starting level. But this is only a want. Alternatives exist.
I don't know how you play, I guess you're probably a much better player than me... but I use TONS of wood and cobblestone in the first few weeks and I would never be able to use the money I have just to buy the same amount of resources from a trader. I need that same money to buy other things that are rare or trader-only.
 
LBD already exists and has existed for several versions now.

You kill zombies, you get exp. You loot things, you get exp. You salvage/harvest things, you get exp. You build/upgrade things, you get exp. Exp gives levels that you can spend however you want. You literally learn by doing, by playing the game.

Skyrim-esque LBD is boring, monotonous, uninspired and easy to abuse. We have something that is essentially learning by doing yet it's not enough for people. They want to "progress" by staring at a wall and spamming something instead of actually playing the game. 99% of arguments over this are purely subjective. TFP's implementations are just as valid as anything else. There's plenty of mods out there for people who refuse to appreciate what exists. I see the devs appealing to the LBD crowd as pointless since we already have a form of LBD that works great and still allows player choice/convenience.

If you take the words of LBD literally, you are correct. But if you take "trapper" literally, a trapper does only lay traps. A settler can't move because he settles. ;)

LBD is clearly defined and is distinct from a general xp-for-perks system, with LBD you don't distribute any points, the points come to you automatically. You probably should use the accepted definition or you might as well speak italian with us.
 
Riamus is right, you're always nitpicking and finding extreme cases to support your counter points.
Hmm. Sometimes I do make mistakes and misread things, and try to acknowledge that the moment I realize my mistake; latest sample misreading meganoth in the stealth thread, turned into a lengthy convo. But nitpicking, and extreme cases .. no. Not intentionally, only when it matters to the argument at hand. Some times in jest, of course, but you're not talking about that. Some times as a reductio ad absurdum, but that's usually when I've already given up on getting through to someone.

What's my nitpick/extreme here? I joined to point out that "players are forced to mine" is wrong, it still is. Chatter has been ongoing ever since, if you feel I've been unfair about something in the follow-up of that statement, please do point out where.

maybe you are just not really personally invested in whatever choice TFP will make so you argue for the sake of arguing.
This is probably close; I've stopped having delusions about TFP making choices I like, or caring about what I like, a long time ago. And yes, I join arguments here for entertainment, but I usually do have an actual counterpoint I believe in. Sometimes not even that, but hey hoo.

but I use TONS of wood and cobblestone in the first few weeks
But why?

If there was anything in the specializations -part you want me to reply to, feel free to ask a direct question or some such; I don't really see anything that needs addressing there.
 
The problem with your point (and Flu's point) is that you completely ignore Early Game where you don't even have a Wrench to scrap stuff.
Also, as you said, the compared quantities between Mining and Looting/Scrapping for most ores are ridiculous in my opinion.
Remember that I'm not saying it's a good option. I just said it's technically not forced since that was the question. You can get iron from scrapping cars and other objects with a stone axe. Other things require a wrench or other salvage tool, but iron does not. Gas isn't necessary in the early game, but you can still get that from the various barrels, gas pumps, etc.
 
Back
Top