PC The Duke, Noah, and the story so far

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Thanks for the compliment. It is appreciated. I hope you know that I consider you to be logical and thoughtful as well. Now, let me disagree with you. :)

I disagree that a stereotype needs repeated use to become problematic. Presenting a negative racial stereotype (unironically/un-satirically) means the presenter is associating derogatory or malicious characteristics to people of a certain race; and implying that these characteristics are typical among members of that race. They could imply this by, for example, not presenting anyone of that race who doesn't have those negative characteristics. (Or they could outright state it, obviously, but you rarely see that nowadays.)


In that case no mexican drug lord, mexican policeman, no italian lover, no italian mafia guy, no stereotype about a minority can ever be used in a negative light if there is no need for repeated use. And even to become a stereotype at all repeated use is absolutely necessary. Which also means that if it isn't used much and only a few people really know about it it isn't much of a stereotype

Note, I didn't mean that "repeated use" means that TFP can use it just once and be free in ALL cases. With repeated use I also mean that it is repeated all the time in media. If say the crooked casion indian were popping up constantly in series, games, books, etc. then that also is repeated use. While you were mentioning a few appearances in series those series were single spots of this stereotype occuring in a long time, but notice how very few here even knew about it. There needs to be some threshold to get noticed, either by being used extensively everywhere OR by being used extensively by one author or medium or company.

And in my opinion this doesn't look to be the case here, this isn't a pervasive well-known stereotype.

I don't think that's ever a good idea, even if those characteristics have never been associated with that race before in real life.


Uh, sorry. Are you really sure you wanted to say that, it would mean you dropped "stereotype" completely from the equation? I assume you still think minority race needs to be a limit. But even with minority race as the only limit you just excluded all minorities from being bad guys in a work of art. And that would mean only the white anglo-saxon race could be bad guy, which would mean a new stereotype. Especially in say asian states where the anglo-saxon race is the minority.

But, I do see your point. I understand why people wouldn't see something as a negative stereotype if they haven't been exposed to it before. They might think "well that's just a bad guy" or something. I would consider them people who don't agree that it's a negative stereotype, and if they don't see the problem with keeping those stereotypes in, I don't think they're doing it for any malicious reason.

EDIT: Also - if this really is a stereotype that hasn't met a "threshold" yet, how do you think TFP heard of it? They didn't come up with the idea, and I really doubt that they went looking for it.


I for example know the simple fact that indians can operate casinos in those states and that is a method for them to generate some income. I didn't know it as a stereotype (other than that I would judge an indian operating/owning(yes owning) a casino as a plausible character). As the heads of TFP come from that area I am sure they have a good chance to know this as well. I can't judge if they just know that or know that it is perceived as a stereotype. They probably don't know much about it as they don't make a point about the guy not owning the casino.

Yes, it's illegal for anyone to privately own a casino in Arizona, and that includes anyone outside a reservation.

The only casinos allowed are casinos owned by tribal governments. But, that's not the only form of gambling, and other forms are allowed. For example, bingo parlors or raffles - though if you're not a church, you probably have to get a permit for those.

Also, like many other states, Arizona has its own state-run lottery: www.arizonalottery.com
 


I still think you are overjudging the importance of the fact that indians as individuums can't OWN a casino. Dictators don't own their countries (as there often is a constitution that tries to keep the illusion) but in fact they usually do.

Maybe that's what TFP should do with the Duke. He could be the corrupt, ambitious owner of the Arizona State Lottery. It brings in a whole lot more money than a casino, and it makes exactly as much sense to own it.

Instead of casino tokens, traders would accept scratch tickets.


No contest here. Even IF I came to a final conclusion that the story were unproblematic once it is out, it could make sense to adjust details if that still keeps the essence of the story. 

Perhaps the confusion is over the word "stereotype." Colloquially that's used for a lot of things that might be better suited to other terms.

The example you brought up is called the "minority sidekick" when it's applied to more than just Black people. I think that's more of a trope than a stereotype. The issue has nothing to do with the characteristics of the minority characters themselves.

In fact, when I did a search for "minority sidekick," one of the first pages that I found used Ned from the Marvel Spider-Man films as an example. But, I don't think anyone (including the page I mentioned) thinks that the character of Ned is a racial stereotype; it's the trope of being a sidekick to a White person, regardless of character, that is the issue.

Also, not everything that can be used as a negative racial stereotype, is always a racial stereotype. Not all black characters who are angry are "angry Black men." Conversely, though Hispanic drug lords are very real, they might turn into stereotypes if the only Hispanics in the story work for drug lords.

And, sometimes "stereotype" is just used to mean "typical" or "simplified," something like an "archetype," without a particular negative connotation. You might see "They lived in a stereotypical two-bedroom home in the suburbs" in a book, and it is usually not meant to disparage people who live in the suburbs. Or their homes.

So, someone could misunderstand a "racial stereotype" to be that kind of "stereotype," even though it's not.

When I am talking about a character who embodies negative racial stereotypes, maybe a better term would be a racial caricature. That seems much more easy to understand, at least to me.


You call it a trope, but it was something that I noticed watching lots of US series in my youth, so I'd say for me personally it reached the level of racial stereotype. In the sense that I got sensitive about its use and didn't like it when it was too obvious. I still cringe when I see the actor Anthony Anderson in one of his typical skits as the almost total idiot.

 
Everyone is using Indians as Native Americans.   That is falsely identifying them.   Indians are from India.   Not America.    

You guys keep on trying to be not offensive while being offensive.   Comical.

I live in the Midwest so I know about the casinos.   Any laws on casinos has not point in an apocalypse unless you think the USA government is still in power in game.  Then why are we not using dollars for cash? 

 
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Everyone is using Indians as Native Americans.   That is falsely identifying them.   Indians are from India.   Not America.    

You guys keep on trying to be not offensive while being offensive.   Comical.

I live in the Midwest so I know about the casinos.   Any laws on casinos has not point in an apocalypse unless you think the USA government is still in power in game.  Then why are we not using dollars for cash? 
It’s not falsely identifying them as most of the time the meaning is clear from context. It also isn’t considered pejorative or offensive by any one of Native American descent who I’ve ever met. Having taught High School for over 20 years I’ve had my fair share of them in my classes and they refer to themselves as Indians more often than Native Americans. It rolls off the tongue easier. Probably why we mostly say “Black” most of the time rather than saying “African American” even though it risks falsely identify our local friends with “Native African Africans”…

 
You guys giving this clown too much attention for a non-existent problem. No sane person that will play this game will suddenly have a bad attitude or view towards native Indians, this way of thinking is just insane.

 
It’s not falsely identifying them as most of the time the meaning is clear from context. It also isn’t considered pejorative or offensive by any one of Native American descent who I’ve ever met. Having taught High School for over 20 years I’ve had my fair share of them in my classes and they refer to themselves as Indians more often than Native Americans. It rolls off the tongue easier. Probably why we mostly say “Black” most of the time rather than saying “African American” even though it risks falsely identify our local friends with “Native African Africans”…
Must be the location.   Around here it is more of a sore subject since many Native Americans are still fighting for the little bit of land they do own.  Oil pipelines did not help the situation.

Most Native American on reservations do not acknowledge American laws or authority.  Africa was not completely conquered and their natives were not mostly eradicated like in America.  

I do understand the Native Americans that grew up as a US citizen living the American ideals.     

Still Indians are official India people.   

Edit:  the previous poster called them Native Indians which is crazy  since Americans are not from India even.  

Native Americans are not Asians.

There are people from India as Americans but these are not the ones the live on US reservations nor do they deal with casinos here.

 
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 Probably why we mostly say “Black” most of the time rather than saying “African American” even though it risks falsely identify our local friends with “Native African Africans”…
African American ancestors was from Africa.   Native Americans is from the land that the USA was created.  

It is more relatable to calling African American as Indians as that term was used saying the Native Americans was uncivilized savages back when the USA was slaughtering them.  

 
It is more relatable to calling African American as Indians as that term was used saying the Native Americans was uncivilized savages back when the USA was slaughtering them. 
Hol up, you calling us out on a name, and then you say THAT about AAs?

 
Hol up, you calling us out on a name, and then you say THAT about AAs?
And Roland called them black.  It was an example of what Indian meant when it came to the slaughter of the Native Americans.  USA was not empty before Europeans conolized it.

You already said you are here to be offensive.   What you say is of no concern.

 
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If you are educated, why you keep talking about USA when refereing to an age there was no USA but just North America with colonists and natives.
This thread is getting wieirder by the day.
And Native American are not from India.   

But the USA was born from the Wild West Era.   More correct than saying other races are all Indians.

 
No, humans are only native to where they initially developed (which was in Africa as far as I know).  That's what native means.  We've spread naturally, but that doesn't mean we're native to everywhere we live.

Admittedly, I'm mostly being pedantic.

 
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No, humans are only native to where they initially developed (which was in Africa as far as I know).  That's what native means.  We've spread naturally, but that doesn't mean we're native to everywhere we 
I did not know Africa was birth of all humans....  it is a new theory.

We are all Africans all along.

 
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