PC The Duke, Noah, and the story so far

[khzmusik]

And that is the problem.  The game, thus the story is not complete.  People have pointed this out repeatedly, and you have ignored it completely.  You literally have nothing of substance with the game files. The issue comes down the fact that you don't have any actual, factual knowledge of what the game's story is.  Any of the information that you gleaned from the current game files has no context.  Are the narrators reliable? Who is the bad guy?  No one actually knows.  Are there even bad guys?  Not currently, you can't point to a single person in the game that would be the bad guy. 

It's understandable to be worried about racist stereotypes.  If the Fun Pimps go full bore with a ruthless Casino Indian, that would be boring story telling.  Is it racist?  Sure, prossibably(intentionally spelled that way ), but is it intentionally so?  Not necessarily.  Should we be past racial stereotypes in media?  probably.  But there are only so many stories to tell(10 i think), and anytime you pull race from the story, you are literally white washing it.  Should we remove race from Pocahontas?  Should we pull race from Blazing Saddles?  Should they be just drug cartels, or should we specify which ones we mean when we tell a story? Race/Region/Religion/Sex/Gender/Age are all touchy subjects, but they are a part of who the characters are, and to assume that they are only included for a stereo-type is nonsense.

What it comes down to, is we can only wait until the game is released.  Until then getting yourself worked up over something you think is happening is not healthy.

I have "actual, factual" knowledge of what is in the current game files. I never claimed otherwise, and I repeatedly made it clear that this wasn't the final story.

So it's not surprising that I didn't respond to people who pointed out that I didn't know the final story line, because they were arguing against a straw man.

As for the rest, honestly it seems like you're agreeing with me, so I'm not sure how to respond. I never said we should pull race from everything, so I don't know what you're trying to argue against.

There is one thing though. You mentioned "whitewashing." In terms of racial stereotyping, this means ignoring or reducing non-White people, and substituting White people in their place. It is commonly used to describe White actors playing non-White characters in films or other media. An example is Rock Hudson playing a Native American in the film "Taza, Son of Cochise."

So it does not mean "removing race" from something. In general it means replacing non-Whites with Whites. So I believe it applies to The Fun Pimps' treatment of Whiteriver.

It's very specific, so if you aren't a native English speaker, there's a good chance you don't know this definition of the word. Hope that clarifies things.

EDIT: The notion that it is "removing race" from something, might have to do with the fact that the "default race" in many countries is White. So if you "remove the race" from a character, they are now White. But the notion that the "default race" is White is itself a racial stereotype.

I'm not saying you believe that, but it's prevalent around the world, so I didn't want to rule it out as an unconscious bias. If that's not what you believe, then that's great, and there is no problem.

I'm only saying this to let you know what "whitewashing" is in the American English language, please do not interpret this as any kind of attack or accusation.

 

[Suxar]

If some people do not have a problem with negative racial stereotypes being in the game (unchanged, without criticism or satire), then at the very least, they are excusing racism.

But what if these are just your stereotypes?

It would also be great to hear from an actual Native American.

Something tells me he'll just laugh.

 

[theFlu]

If someone advocates keeping what is in the game files right now, then whether they intend to or not, they are saying that negative racial stereotypes should be a core part of the game.

One of the problems is, that this take is way too overarching. Essentially, your take seems to be "no negative racial stereotypes allowed at all". "Aggressive black man" is one. Can we have a Falcon => Captain America storyline? Can we have any movie about Mike Tyson? Can we show Mike eating chicken breast for his cut phase, or is that another?

"Mexican Cartel lord" is another. Can we have Emilia Perez, the 13 oscar nominee?

 

[Dead Smarty]

If someone jokes about stereotypes of my country/people/culture my natural response is telling a few far worse facts about my heritage. I used to be active in real life in a well mixed international group of people, traveled quite a bit, and there were always jokes about stereotypes. So what is the big deal anyway? Anyone with half a brain and a good sense of humor can deal with them, no need to keep pushing the "problematic" narative.
And yes, some things are sensitive in certain groups and ofcourse we need to be aware of that but please don't make it bigger than it realy is.

 

Can we have Emilia Perez, the 13 oscar nominee?

Oh no... Now do we have to discus why it was given only 2 Oscar? Or would it have been problimatic if they would have won more? Or did it only got these nominations in an act of wokeness?

(Opening a can of worms can be fun sometimes)

But what if these are just your stereotypes?

That's the question every non American is asking. I've seen a few episodes of a few different shows dealing about modern day Indians and casino's. None of them was notably about croocked casino managers/owners. So it might be that the pulp shows are the only ones using it for national use only. Or that I just have a good taste in shows but that is unlikely.

 

[BFT2020]

Interesting thread, some things I noted as I read through all of them (so these will be scattered throughout based on where the posts are):

We only know less than 1% of the 7 Days to Die universe (and this is even being very generous).  And these are only based on the game itself and tidbits of old game code that may not be relevant anymore.  Anything implied by TFP regarding this story is filled out mostly by our own interpretations of this missing information.

Duke was at one point tied to John Wayne.  Duke is a general name that has been used in a lot of culture to reference a person high in power - either good or bad.  While the OP instantly thought of John Wayne regarding Duke, my first thought was the main villain in Escape from New York - a more generic name for the baddie at top.

There was a discussion on how the Duke could not be who he is based on laws and how the system works in our world - ignoring the fact that this story is based on fiction and it is up to the author on how the world of 7 Days to Die is setup (see my first point).  Fiction can be a wide range - from you sitting down in the morning and writing up a story on how your day is going to play out to an author talking about humans in the 22 century where in that world, aliens invaded Earth in the 1300s and humanity is on the brink of extinction.  Just because it can't happen here does not mean it cannot happen in a fictional universe.

There has also been a lot of talk about racial stereotypes that has generated a lot of back and forth discussion, but I haven't seen it yet.  Have I missed it?  Right now, it is simply stated that the Duke is Native American Indian and that he got his power through Casinos (money).  That he is the bad guy in this story and based on trader conversations, he was a bad guy prior to the downfall we are struggling through in this game.  That is it.  It would be racial stereotypes if TFP were to release the finish game and they implied that all Native Americans had some negative traits just because of who they were.  However, none of this is present today.  They could have easily changed the Duke to a white person or a LGBTQ person or anything out there today and it would be the same - a person that had access to something that gave him power over others (money, influence, etc) and used it for evil ways.

What is being done today is simply a leap from what little information out there to TFP having a story that incorporates Racial Stereotypes.  This would be no different than someone taking my history of growing up in a rural county where the population was 99.8% white and interpolating from that little information that I am a White Nationalist.  And then that same person state to anyone pointing out the information out there does not lead to that conclusion, that they must be okay with White Nationalism.

But that is simply my take away from this conversation at this point.  I know I might have missed some minor points, but this is what it looks like to me today as I read through all the posts.

 

[ZehMatt]

After reading all the posts I come to the conclusion that the Internet has cooked way too many brains, touch some grass.

 

[khzmusik]

But what if these are just your stereotypes?

I guess we'll never know, since they are not just my stereotypes. I provided many links to sources that explained it.

Of course, I'm not saying they're your stereotypes either. But that makes the situation worse (the stereotypes, not you).

It is an unfortunate truth that the U.S. tends to export its stereotypes, since we make a lot of the media that is consumed around the world.

Let's say nobody ever brought this up, and what is in the game files now is exactly what will be in the final story line. You had never heard of "casino Indians" before. When you encountered the Duke in the game, would you have taken the time to discover that he's just a negative racial stereotype?

Perhaps you would, I don't know. But I suspect most people in your situation wouldn't. They'd probably see the "casino Indian" in the game - and maybe "confirm" it from some other American TV shows or something - and think "I guess that's how Native Americans are nowadays."

 

[NoMan]

 

[theFlu]

But I suspect most people in your situation wouldn't. They'd probably see the "casino Indian" in the game - and maybe "confirm" it from some other American TV shows or something - and think "I guess that's how Native Americans are nowadays."

If "most people" take what they see in movies as the truth .. well, at least your standards for humanity aren't too high. I'd give "most people" a little more credit than that thou.

 

[Roland]

Somewhere on Earth 343 there is a forum thread discussing how the Duke of Navezgane is a white guy who runs the casino and somebody is very upset about the cultural appropriation TFP is intentionally or unintentionally committing….

 

[khzmusik]

There has also been a lot of talk about racial stereotypes that has generated a lot of back and forth discussion, but I haven't seen it yet.  Have I missed it?  Right now, it is simply stated that the Duke is Native American Indian and that he got his power through Casinos (money).  That he is the bad guy in this story and based on trader conversations, he was a bad guy prior to the downfall we are struggling through in this game.  That is it.

That is enough.

The "casino Indian" trope is the negative racial stereotype. There has never been a "casino Indian" as presented in the game, because no individual - Native American or not - is allowed to own a casino in Arizona.

Only tribal governments are allowed to own casinos. The money from casinos can only be spent on the general welfare of the tribe, not on one person, and this is strictly audited and controlled by the U.S. government. Also, tribal casinos have never been infiltrated by organized crime (unlike casinos in Las Vegas or Atlantic City or whatever).

But the Duke is never presented as a member of a tribal government, just a "corrupt" casino "owner" whose enemies are White settlers (Noah). That is the stereotype. It is a pretty common stereotype that TFP didn't invent, but that doesn't mean it's not a stereotype.

Also, once again, to be very very clear, I am not saying that TFP (or anyone who defend them) are intending to be racist. It is such a common racial stereotype, that most people in America do not seem to be aware that it even is a racial stereotype.

I am also not saying that this is the story that will be in the final version of the game. But it is what is in the current game files. Those files have over 100 lines of dialog (which is not yet in the game), much of which was added in 1.0, so it's not like it isn't a significant chunk of the story.

Here's the specific comment where I explain all of that, and include links to many sources. Read at your leisure.
 

Somewhere on Earth 343 there is a forum thread discussing how the Duke of Navezgane is a white guy who runs the casino and somebody is very upset about the cultural appropriation TFP is intentionally or unintentionally committing….

Somewhere on Earth 343 there is a forum thread discussing how Emmett Till actually did try to force himself on a White woman, and how his torture and murder was justified, so how dare our Earth appropriate that for the civil rights movement.

...I'm obviously being sarcastic, but you honestly don't see how what you're saying is ridiculous? Inventing a fictional reality where racial stereotypes are "factual," does not suddenly make them not be racial stereotypes, and it doesn't mean the media where those fictional realities are presented are magically absolved from regurgitating racial stereotypes.

 

[theFlu]

Inventing a fictional reality where racial stereotypes are "factual,"

I don't think he did this - he can correct me of course. He invented a reality where the TFP's casino owner is portrayed as a whitey, and some activist is upset about that - since casinos in the area are Achually ran by indian tribes and "that's whitewashing!".

 

[Suxar]

When you encountered the Duke in the game, would you have taken the time to discover that he's just a negative racial stereotype?

What does race have to do with it? A negative character? Probably yes. But what does race have to do with it?

My childhood passed in the USSR. The Soviet Union collapsed when I was finishing school. We were brought up in the spirit of internationalism. And if a person has some traits, then this is a consequence of upbringing and/or environment, but race has nothing to do with it.

 

[YourMirror]

Yehyeh. And all the bad zombies actually in game are white. I am sooooo upset as a white male. I have to lay down for a bit.

 

[Dead Smarty]

And if a person has some traits, then this is a consequence of upbringing and/or environment, but race has nothing to do with it.

And that is very true.

 

[Roland]

...I'm obviously being sarcastic, but you honestly don't see how what you're saying is ridiculous? Inventing a fictional reality where racial stereotypes are "factual," does not suddenly make them not be racial stereotypes, and it doesn't mean the media where those fictional realities are presented are magically absolved from regurgitating racial stereotypes.

I don't think he did this - he can correct me of course. He invented a reality where the TFP's casino owner is portrayed as a whitey, and some activist is upset about that - since casinos in the area are Achually ran by indian tribes and "that's whitewashing!".

theFlu got it right. I was merely making the point that no matter what story TFP decides to tell, somebody somewhere who is seeking for what they want to find will be offended. Not only that, but it will be someone acting as an advocate on behalf of a group they don't even belong to.

Stories should be able to be told. Even if the story borrows from or promulgates a stereotype it should be able to be told and the readers can decide how they feel about it. Critics can point out the stereotypes and greater understanding can result. Trying to "burn books" before they are even written is what I see as a greater tragedy than any one stereotype. 

Besides, with everything you've written, I still am not convinced that the general populace believing that individual Indians getting rich due to preferential treatment by the government for their casinos is rooted in prejudice and stereotype so much as just a general ignorance for how the gaming laws work.

Regardless, even if the laws prohibit casinos from being owned by individuals and mandate that profits be used for the benefit of the entire tribe, that only goes as far as the books and audits can prove and enforce. It isn't beyond the scope of believability that in one case a corrupt man couldn't circumvent the law and use the casino to enrich himself before the apocalypse and then rise to absolute power after the apocalypse.

For years as a kid I watched a lone Indian Chief shed a tear at the litter he found Saturday after Saturday after Saturday. Somehow that story repeated so often didn't make me think that all Native Americans cry over litter or could never be litterbugs themselves. That public service ad definitely utilized the stereotype that all Native Americans are spiritually connected to the land. But it hasn't overwhelmed my view of Native Americans.

 

[8_Hussars]

Duke was at one point tied to John Wayne.  Duke is a general name that has been used in a lot of culture to reference a person high in power - either good or bad.  While the OP instantly thought of John Wayne regarding Duke, my first thought was the main villain in Escape from New York - a more generic name for the baddie at top.

It is intuitively obvious "The Duke" is from GI Joe. 

All tropes aside, TFPs hidden story simple mirrors mirrors real-world ideological rifts. It's not good vs. evil as both sides believe they're saving "the world" in their own way. That tension of the struggle is the back story.

I will wait until TFP clarify and publish the story before I parse it through my moral filter.

 

[khzmusik]

theFlu got it right. I was merely making the point that no matter what story TFP decides to tell, somebody somewhere who is seeking for what they want to find will be offended. Not only that, but it will be someone acting as an advocate on behalf of a group they don't even belong to.

FWIW, I never claimed I was acting as an advocate on behalf of Native Americans. I'm the one who does not want the game that I love - and that I still spend 30-40 hours a week modding - to have a story line full of stereotypes that I do not want to be associated with. (I've never understood that whole accusation - like, you have to be Black to not like Birth of a Nation? You have to be Asian to be embarrassed by Mickey Rooney's performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's?)

Trying to "burn books" before they are even written is what I see as a greater tragedy than any one stereotype.

Hoping (or even advocating) that TFP remove or modify what are probably unintentional racial stereotypes, or being embarrassed by those stereotypes enough to not recommend the game to family and friends, is not even in the same league as "burning books."

No matter what happens, TFP will still have their game. Even if they do what I would like, the game will have almost entirely the same story. And if not, the worst that will happen is that some other folks will be turned off, and either stop playing or just not buy the game, and TFP will lose some credibility or good will. Nothing will be "burned."

As for myself, if that happens, I'll make a mod that removes/replaces/alters the problematic parts. That's not "burning books." That's free speech.

Regardless, even if the laws prohibit casinos from being owned by individuals and mandate that profits be used for the benefit of the entire tribe, that only goes as far as the books and audits can prove and enforce. It isn't beyond the scope of believability that in one case a corrupt man couldn't circumvent the law and use the casino to enrich himself before the apocalypse and then rise to absolute power after the apocalypse.

This is exactly inventing a fictional reality where negative racial stereotypes are "factual."

The primary managers and key employees of tribal casinos must pass background checks from the tribe and the National Indian Gaming Commission (sometimes assisted by the DOJ), or the tribe may lose its gaming license. Have some of those individuals embezzled money from tribal casinos? To be sure. I even read about a tribal leader being involved, once.

Do they gain power because of it? No. Tribal police and the FBI hunt them down and put them in jail. They lose the respect of the tribe, because they are stealing money that's supposed to go to schools, hospitals, elder care, or paving the roads. The casino's books are constantly audited by the IGRA (that's their job) and the U.S. state governments (who want their cut), so it needs to be small enough amounts of money to fly under the radar. And if the casino is located in Apache Indian territory (as the game lore says), which isn't next to a major city, that's not going to be a lot of money, relatively speaking.

That might be why there has never been any evidence of organized crime connected to tribal casinos.

(Most of this is from a report by the DOJ, though it's kind of old: oig.justice.gov/reports/plus/e0106/results.htm . If you want to read the actual gaming ordinance filed with the NIGC by the White Mountain Apache tribe, here's a PDF from the NIGC: www.nigc.gov/images/uploads/gamingordinances/whiteamtnapachetribe-amendappr121803.pdf . I can hunt down more if you're really interested.)

In fact, the biggest corruption scandal involving tribal casinos was the Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal, where he and his team took about $85 million from tribes to lobby on their behalf, and instead took the money or lobbied against their interests. Abramoff, Representative Bob Ney, two aides to Representative Tom DeLay, and various other lobbyists and aides were either convicted of or plead guilty to fraud, conspiracy, and tax evasion.

If the Duke was someone like Jack Abramoff, that's in the scope of believability. The notion that the Duke passed government background checks, then circumvented the law, stole tons of money from his tribe's casino without anyone in the tribe noticing, and was still able to rise to "absolute power" after the apocalypse, strains credulity.

 

[theFlu]

No matter what happens, TFP will still have their game. Even if they do what I would like, the game will have almost entirely the same story. And if not, the worst that will happen is that some other folks will be turned off, and either stop playing or just not buy the game, and TFP will lose some credibility or good will. Nothing will be "burned."

There's more than one way to burn a book; Disney's been following your principles to the T and managed to burn Snow White of all things

But, 7dtd/duke/changes:

Worst case if they don't, they lose a couple customers.

Worst case if they do, they lose a couple customers.

Sounds like a tie, no need to change it then I guess.

without anyone in the tribe noticing

Or "with enough people in the tribe colluding". Watching how governmental money is spent in general, it would surprise me if there wasn't malfeasance everywhere. All you need is a "good sounding" title to an assistance program and suitable nominees to "run" it, taking a good paycheck. Perfectly repeatable in any bureaucracy.

 

[Roland]

FWIW, I never claimed I was acting as an advocate on behalf of Native Americans. I'm the one who does not want the game that I love - and that I still spend 30-40 hours a week modding - to have a story line full of stereotypes that I do not want to be associated with. (I've never understood that whole accusation - like, you have to be Black to not like Birth of a Nation? You have to be Asian to be embarrassed by Mickey Rooney's performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's?)

Hoping (or even advocating) that TFP remove or modify what are probably unintentional racial stereotypes, or being embarrassed by those stereotypes enough to not recommend the game to family and friends, is not even in the same league as "burning books."

No matter what happens, TFP will still have their game. Even if they do what I would like, the game will have almost entirely the same story. And if not, the worst that will happen is that some other folks will be turned off, and either stop playing or just not buy the game, and TFP will lose some credibility or good will. Nothing will be "burned."

As for myself, if that happens, I'll make a mod that removes/replaces/alters the problematic parts. That's not "burning books." That's free speech.

This is exactly inventing a fictional reality where negative racial stereotypes are "factual."

The primary managers and key employees of tribal casinos must pass background checks from the tribe and the National Indian Gaming Commission (sometimes assisted by the DOJ), or the tribe may lose its gaming license. Have some of those individuals embezzled money from tribal casinos? To be sure. I even read about a tribal leader being involved, once.

Do they gain power because of it? No. Tribal police and the FBI hunt them down and put them in jail. They lose the respect of the tribe, because they are stealing money that's supposed to go to schools, hospitals, elder care, or paving the roads. The casino's books are constantly audited by the IGRA (that's their job) and the U.S. state governments (who want their cut), so it needs to be small enough amounts of money to fly under the radar. And if the casino is located in Apache Indian territory (as the game lore says), which isn't next to a major city, that's not going to be a lot of money, relatively speaking.

That might be why there has never been any evidence of organized crime connected to tribal casinos.

(Most of this is from a report by the DOJ, though it's kind of old: oig.justice.gov/reports/plus/e0106/results.htm . If you want to read the actual gaming ordinance filed with the NIGC by the White Mountain Apache tribe, here's a PDF from the NIGC: www.nigc.gov/images/uploads/gamingordinances/whiteamtnapachetribe-amendappr121803.pdf . I can hunt down more if you're really interested.)

In fact, the biggest corruption scandal involving tribal casinos was the Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal, where he and his team took about $85 million from tribes to lobby on their behalf, and instead took the money or lobbied against their interests. Abramoff, Representative Bob Ney, two aides to Representative Tom DeLay, and various other lobbyists and aides were either convicted of or plead guilty to fraud, conspiracy, and tax evasion.

If the Duke was someone like Jack Abramoff, that's in the scope of believability. The notion that the Duke passed government background checks, then circumvented the law, stole tons of money from his tribe's casino without anyone in the tribe noticing, and was still able to rise to "absolute power" after the apocalypse, strains credulity.

This is sounding more and more like it is simply a case of doctors not being able to watch Grey's Anatomy because they know so much about how hospitals actually work that they are put off by the story tellers' rendition of how the hospital of Grey's Anatomy works. I don't think it is really about stereotypes at all. Your post is the first I've ever heard about this supposed Casino Indian stereotype that permeates our society. So is it really a stereotype that must not be promulgated yet again in yet another story or is it simply that you know the truth about gaming laws and Indian casinos and their workings to such a degree that the premise is unbelievable to you and offends your knowledge and sensibilities?

I watched an episode of 24 one time where the character actually came to my home town to meet with someone. The footage of my city was Los Angeles and bore no resemblance to my actual city. They talked about going to the Kyoto District to meet their contact. My city isn't even big enough to have named districts that anyone actually refers to. So my wife and I laughed and laughed through that episode and it destroyed any believability at all that they actually came to our city. Of course, nobody else in the nation who watched that episode would be any the wiser and they probably had no problem with the story that week.

So most people won't blink an eye at how unrealistic it might be for an individual casino owner on tribal lands to be able to gain power and be corrupt in the way the game's story depicts. Only you and those who are fully in the know will see the absurdity of it. I really doubt that anyone is going to experience the story and assume that all Indians who own casinos are corrupt.

I think your approach to this has been all wrong. Instead of making it about stereotypes, you should have made it about accuracy and realistic story telling. If there actually is a stereotype like this out there it appears that I and many others here somehow missed out on it and so don't appreciate being told that our acceptance of the story is due to our prejudicial views about Indians. 

I'll gladly admit to being ignorant about how the gaming laws work in all the minutia of their details but I don't agree about all this stereotype talk. I googled Casino Indian Stereotype and your definition doesn't come up at all. Any pairing of the word stereotype and Indian leads to their connection to the land.