PC The downside of books - your thoughts?

It has merits, but then it literally specifies an end game.
"You're at 100 days, you're as good as you're going to get".
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So? Most people stop way earlier than day 100, because they just want to get to an endgame and then are bored anyway.

Nothing against more content and more goals laid out by the game, but all of these systems and all the content added will always have some end point. The only thing truly potentially endless is the part after you conquered all that jazz and have the means to shape the world however you damn well please. Which will always be my favorite part of the game, unless of course they change it so much, that even at end game certain aspects *cough*resourcegathering*cough* still suck balls...

 
Even when we have our super impenetrable fortress, we find ways to amuse ourselves... hell, you're a builder, you know.

 
Even when we have our super impenetrable fortress, we find ways to amuse ourselves... hell, you're a builder, you know.
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Yessir. Was just wondering why you brought up the point of endgame. Because with any of the systems you have one laid out before you, or not?

Wouldn't you love to sit in on a few of these staff meetings?
I really want to know how these conversations go.

I support TFP, I like A17.... but this "new" system stopped being fun in 1990.

I don't know what they are thinking...

(...)
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The way it looks to me:

They made a massive, complex, hard to balance game, reaching many different players and playstyles.

They realized they don't want to do the work of bringing all of that together, trying to please everyone. May even have reached a conclusion that it's impossible.

They decided to cut as many corners as they can to make their work easier. Result: The current (supposed) one-size-fits-all progression concept.

Too bad, it's not working too well (again). Too bad it's gonna eat even more time that could be used for adding content.

But yeah, this is not the thread for that topic.

It was mentioned they're not backing down on this new system generally speaking, so if books/schematics as a means to build your character skillset shall make a return, it has to be in line with that system.

So books unlocking specific perks could be a thing as alternative route to spending the points on them yourself.

The attributes would still gate their availability to be used (same like with weather/death debuffs) but as soon as attribute requirements are met they work.

This could actually become interesting.

Add books/schems as alternative way to get points directly into crafting related perks. Basically the magazines, but with permanent effect.

Add NPCs as trainers for combat skills, giving points directly into those perks for money/completeing missions. (Or just more books related to combat topics, if such NPCs are too much effort).

Slightly increase higher level attribute cost. Remove any level gates. Remove the level cap.

 
Honestly, if we go back to books I would quit forever. I have some of the ♥♥♥♥tiest luck, hell I still get stoked and shocked if I see an auger or chainsaw; minibike books and calipers were things I only saw every once in a blue moon.

A compromise which I can see be favorable to both side would be to leave the same level gates, but also have the books for the level-gated recipes.

I still say there should be vehicles as very very rare-spawns in the world, that require like an engine or tires and need repair kits to get functional, as well.

 
When legendary items became a thing in Legion expansion of World of Warcraft the devs implemented a bad luck protection, the longer the time you were without a legendary drop the more chances you had, guess that not having fixed loot tables makes it impossible to implement it here

 
Multiple avenues to complete the task.
Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need.

Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one.

Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course...

Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together.

TFP can be clever; they can give us a strong game system, one that utilizes everyone's strengths. Or, they can keep going the cheap way out. This close to gold, I'm not holding my breath.
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This right here exactly.

/thread lol

Seriously this makes total sense- Plus get creative and give us a trader who specializes in books and has the 'essentials' all the time along with a random list- Price them really high.

 
I think it's much better to just be able to do all the things without books and just do them really ♥♥♥♥ty for a while until you get better at it by doing those things a lot.

Should be able to loot most of the things you needed books for in various 'conditions' and then improve them if you've the learnin' to do such a thing.

Books and mags both cheapen the game to me, would be much better off without them.

Maybe just a generic book that increases your intellect slightly as a rare loot, but barring crafting skills in them I was never a fan of. "I can't take the bullets out of the gun dear, we didn't find the pistol book yet" -Wyatt Derp

 
I think it's much better to just be able to do all the things without books and just do them really ♥♥♥♥ty for a while until you get better at it by doing those things a lot.
Should be able to loot most of the things you needed books for in various 'conditions' and then improve them if you've the learnin' to do such a thing.

Books and mags both cheapen the game to me, would be much better off without them.

Maybe just a generic book that increases your intellect slightly as a rare loot, but barring crafting skills in them I was never a fan of. "I can't take the bullets out of the gun dear, we didn't find the pistol book yet" -Wyatt Derp
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I always thought there should have been a time attached to books- For instance you would click to 'study' forge ahead and it would start a timer that would take X amount of time (with added modifiers from Int) that could range for hours to days depending on the complexity.

I agree that 'click and know' cheapens it but I think learning from books is realistic

Having the books made looting very fun and rewarding- Having the ability to keep that feature in tandem with a point unlock if you're unlucky and then adding in rare book drops that cannot be point learned and you bring back a but of the magic that I feel has been lost in this area.

 
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So, a lot of people aren't big fans of the Perk system as it is in A17.
I also see a lot of people harking back to the book system used in previous Alphas to unlock certain recipes. For those in favour of such a system though, I'd like to know your opinions about book rarity.

You see, to me, the great downfall of the book system was always that the more fundamental the recipe gated by the book, the more common the book had to be, and therefore the less point in gating the recipe behind a book was in the first place.

The perfect example of this was the Forge Ahead book, without which, in previous Alpha's, you were stuck in the Stone age. Ultimately, before it's much un-mourned demise, the book had to be made so common by the Pimps, that it was virtually worthless as a gating mechanic in the first place.

While not a book, another good, and personal example, I can think of was the old Calipers, which on one game, take me 130 days to find just one. I can honestly and safely say, it wasn't a sense of joy that I went without the calipers for 130 days, or exultation at finally finding one, but frustration bordering on murderous rage that it had taken so long.

So, for those in favour of the old book system (or pushing it for a revival in future Alphas), how would you overcome the potential for a gate to cripple an unlucky players game?
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I'd say have the trader stock all the books but make them stupidly expensive. By day 130 you should be able to afford that one book you are missing.

 
Are we goldfish? lolI'm quite happy with knowledge retention thanks.
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I dont know about you but I am, in fact, a goldfish.

How did you know that? I thought I was anon online. =/

lol, what I'm saying is clicking a book and immediately knowing as we had in prior alphas vs clicking a book and having a certain amount of time (the study bar fills up) and then you will know it forever. To simulate the time it would take to read and study the book.

 
I dont know about you but I am, in fact, a goldfish.
How did you know that? I thought I was anon online. =/

lol, what I'm saying is clicking a book and immediately knowing as we had in prior alphas vs clicking a book and having a certain amount of time (the study bar fills up) and then you will know it forever. To simulate the time it would take to read and study the book.
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Going to have to disagree with this concept, maybe more realistic but its another crappy timer to sit and watch tick down, not a fan (if it gets implemented make it optional, save us all another XML edit.

 
Going to have to disagree with this concept, maybe more realistic but its another crappy timer to sit and watch tick down, not a fan (if it gets implemented make it optional, save us all another XML edit.
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I'm no fan of that either, but it could be just a timer that runs on the side and after 12 hours in game you learn it. So it doesn't hinder movement, but otherwise, ya I'm no fan of that either.

I loved the books, and there are traders and can be specialists and any number of proper ways to set it up. THe massive library could have the "higher" end books (I think it did before - but not always) and smaller places can have the lower tier books. The big ass crack a book warehouse can have everything.

Whatever you miss just buy it.

Wasn't that how Valmar did it? you could buy anything you didn't find, or if you didn't want to find it. I still preferred rng.

I remember spending a full 7 days just running from building to building that I knew had bookshelves looking for the spiked club. Ran soooo far went through several towns and on the 7th day, I got back to my temp base on top of a working stiffy to prepare for horde night, checked the big garbage can since I hadn't looted it yet, and there was the spiked club recipe. There was much rejoicing.

 
I'm no fan of that either, but it could be just a timer that runs on the side and after 12 hours in game you learn it. So it doesn't hinder movement, but otherwise, ya I'm no fan of that either.
I loved the books, and there are traders and can be specialists and any number of proper ways to set it up. THe massive library could have the "higher" end books (I think it did before - but not always) and smaller places can have the lower tier books. The big ass crack a book warehouse can have everything.

Whatever you miss just buy it.

Wasn't that how Valmar did it? you could buy anything you didn't find, or if you didn't want to find it. I still preferred rng.

I remember spending a full 7 days just running from building to building that I knew had bookshelves looking for the spiked club. Ran soooo far went through several towns and on the 7th day, I got back to my temp base on top of a working stiffy to prepare for horde night, checked the big garbage can since I hadn't looted it yet, and there was the spiked club recipe. There was much rejoicing.
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yes, that was exactly what I was going for- You wouldnt have to stand around or look at a bar and the time would normally be quite long. It would run in the background regardless of what you were doing (but could also be worked into the death penalty somehow)

My reasoning is this- If you are going under system where you would have unlocks by skill or by book , the book is going to always be the superior method because you wont be wasting a point- So it would slow down buying or looting 20 books and instantly learning all of all since you could only learn one at a time..

If these were not level locked at all it would take some of the pain out of the level locks we have currently and make looting far more interesting- You would know that if you cant find a book you can still learn whatever but you'll just have to be X level but you would still know its possible to find a book.

Not that I think any of this is going to happen (*or even is the best way) but given the system we have now and some realistic things that could possibly be worked in- Thats how I would like.

-This could also open up an opportunity to add new cooking recipes that would be some sort of 'brain food' and could buff learning time.

 
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I dont know about you but I am, in fact, a goldfish.
How did you know that? I thought I was anon online. =/

lol, what I'm saying is clicking a book and immediately knowing as we had in prior alphas vs clicking a book and having a certain amount of time (the study bar fills up) and then you will know it forever. To simulate the time it would take to read and study the book.
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Aah, ok. Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant like how magazines work in Fallout New Vegas, where it only benefits you for a short while.

 
I find the whole debate very interesting.

With books you spend time, search for a book, get your skill.

With Perks you spend time, kill zombies for xp, get your skill.

When it comes down to it it's sort of the same thing. You spend time doing an activity to get you to your desired skill. It sounds like you all prefer spending your time searching for books over killing zombies. Would that be accurate?

 
yes, that was exactly what I was going for- You wouldnt have to stand around or look at a bar and the time would normally be quite long. It would run in the background regardless of what you were doing (but could also be worked into the death penalty somehow)
My reasoning is this- If you are going under system where you would have unlocks by skill or by book , the book is going to always be the superior method because you wont be wasting a point- So it would slow down buying or looting 20 books and instantly learning all of all since you could only learn one at a time..

If these were not level locked at all it would take some of the pain out of the level locks we have currently and make looting far more interesting- You would know that if you cant find a book you can still learn whatever but you'll just have to be X level but you would still know its possible to find a book.

Not that I think any of this is going to happen (*or even is the best way) but given the system we have now and some realistic things that could possibly be worked in- Thats how I would like.

-This could also open up an opportunity to add new cooking recipes that would be some sort of 'brain food' and could buff learning time.
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No i got what you were driving at, even if its not a timer that blocks you from playing the game/fighting/whatever... its STILL another boring ass timer to wait through.

 
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