The 5th Tab Project, an Idea.

[WarMongerian]

Anyone here a fan of Stargate SG1 TV series?  In that show their was the phrase "The Fifth Race".  This thread is all about my brain dead ideas for future 7dtd products and game play tweaking to taste by fans to get their own preferred settings to play their own private games under.  I'm titling this the "Fifth Tab Project" in homage to my love of that show, so that is where the title comes from.

For this thread/idea, I'm going to attempt to use images to convey concepta, but please be aware that my eyesight is failing, so I may not be able to see some mistakes I make.

Here are some images that anyone that reads this should already be familiar with, if you are not used to seeing (and using) the choices contained within the game creation process as it already exists today, Nov 19th, 2024, then keep in mind this thread is (probably) not for you. 

First, the current four tabs:



Hopefully, no one responding to this thread is seeing these tabs for the first time.  The above four images show all the current ways that a player can use, within the Graphical User Interface (GUI), to customize their personal game play within 7dtd in the game setup menu that comes with the unmodified game.  This thread isn't about those options, but rather about additional potential options contained within as yet unwritten (future) content.

Now for the notional "5th Tab Project" image:

As you can see, All I have done to this point is use cut & paste on an existing image, s a means of trying to show what TFP could do, if they decide to start making further playstyle options a thing.  Right now, we can use the 4 existing tabs to customize our private/personal games to our liking.  The image above is just my own attempt to show how we could have 4 more tabs full of options to play with, because there is room for that many additional tabs of choices with the current game interface, and if we were to end up with a need for more than 4 more tabs (I personally think this is possible or even probable), then someone more talented than I will be needed to show how that situation could end up looking like.

The first 4 tabs seem to have room for a couple options more than are currently available, but what my idea would see is a great many more new options, so planning for more tabs is needed.  Each current tab looks to give up to 12 options, and as far as I know, the optional setting for the daily quest progression came about right at the time we went and rented s shockbyte server, so we didn't even notice that it was a ting until I went and started looking at the settings because one of the guys was complaining that he couldn't clear a quest tier, and that was when they first started having that setting, and the servers didn't show it, so we couldn't alter the default setting from whatever it was initially set to (I think it was 3/day, but I could be wrong).  Now that I am back to playing solo/private games, I can set that variable to 'unlimited', and then I can clear a tier a day if I want.

What I'll do next post is to show some ideas for what some of the options might look like, and then ask folks for suggestions on what they would want to see.  Keep in mind this thread is really for folks that use the existing options, and want more, as opposed to folks that do not even use what the TFP have already provided, so hopefully, we will not have folks posting that options are bad, or that there are already too many options as is.

Nap time for me, and I wish everyone a good show for Space X test flight #6 today @1600 hours central time.

 

[WarMongerian]

Here is what I am talking about forum icons, that allow folks to show their collection of products and support for the game designers.



Each of those 'Badges' is some product or other that that player/fan has purchased, in this case, the player/fan has 39 such.  Personally, I like the idea that a player/fan can have some recognition for their lifetime support of the game designers' efforts, but would like a way to toggle the badges on/off, so I can see who has what, when I want, and not bother with it when I don't want.  Best of both options.

If additional option tabs were something I could buy and display on the forums, that would be a good indicator for seeing who is who, if somebody that doesn't invest in a game franchise, and has no icons/purchases is objecting, that would allow me to discount their opinion, but if someone that had extensive icons/purchases is against a topic, that would indicate a more serious situation.

 

[thatguybeard]

So 1 doesn’t have a choice for me, unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, but I use all the options to tailor the game for maximum fun. Love all they have given us would love as many as they can give.

For 2 would pay for depending on what is offered. 
 

For 3 wouldn’t bother me if they did or didn’t do or whatever.

 

[Riamus]

If you make polls, it helps to have a full set of options.  Just look at the first question... Your choices are that you don't use options, or your don't use options, or you don't play "private" games, which has nothing to do with options.  A poll without a full set of choices just gives biased results.  And what's with the idea of paid options?  They won't charge you for options.  They might add a DLC and have some specific option relating to the content, but that's an entirely different thing.

As far as options, they'll add more options in the future.  Options will likely be mostly towards the end once features are complete.

The idea of forum badges works for Paradox because they have so many games and expansions.  TFP has one game right now.  Even if they put out a few DLC at some point, it really won't be enough to warrant having forum badges.  Until/if they have more than maybe 10 games/expansions, there just isn't any reason, imo.

 

[WarMongerian]

So 1 doesn’t have a choice for me, unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, but I use all the options to tailor the game for maximum fun. Love all they have given us would love as many as they can give.

For 2 would pay for depending on what is offered. 
 

For 3 wouldn’t bother me if they did or didn’t do or whatever.

Yep, I'm unfortunately in the process of going blind, and I didn't realize I didn't make that a 4 answer question, so I myself had to choose a different option than I had planned.  As far as I know, we cannot edit the poll questions and options once we hit submit post.  So, for #1, you are quite correct, I goofed and didn't put in the option we both would/should have had.  My bad.

For #2, it would depend on how much each cost, and what they had to offer.  For instance, I personally wouldn't care for or use an "Option Pack" that had just PvP stuff in it, as I don't play PvP. 

For #3, I might buy such a pack, if they were to do the forum thing, and I wanted to have the complete collection of all the TFP/7DTD franchise offerings, but I would never actually use it.  Thanks for the reply and breakdown on things, I really appreciate this.

 

[zztong]

1 - Yes, I do use the options.

2 - Once cost is involved then I'd probably want to see what the features were, but I'd probably be cool with them.

3 - Forum badges are not of value to me. Being able to turn a badge off would be good if I thought the badge was dumb. Let me put it this way, I'm not buying a product for a forum badge, but if a purchase came with a badge that I thought was cool, then I might leave it on.

 

[WarMongerian]

If you make polls, it helps to have a full set of options.  Just look at the first question... Your choices are that you don't use options, or your don't use options, or you don't play "private" games, which has nothing to do with options.  A poll without a full set of choices just gives biased results.  And what's with the idea of paid options?  They won't charge you for options.  They might add a DLC and have some specific option relating to the content, but that's an entirely different thing.

As far as options, they'll add more options in the future.  Options will likely be mostly towards the end once features are complete.

The idea of forum badges works for Paradox because they have so many games and expansions.  TFP has one game right now.  Even if they put out a few DLC at some point, it really won't be enough to warrant having forum badges.  Until/if they have more than maybe 10 games/expansions, there just isn't any reason, imo.

I definitely screwed that poll up, that's for sure!  I meant to have the choice where you use the options, but of course I royally messed that one up, even though that was the choice I myself wanted to vote for.  

The Idea with paid options?  Why not?  Mind you, If they were going to take their sweet time and eventually give me the option(s) that I want for free, that would be nice, but if that meant waiting a year or two to get them, I would already be gone on to something else.  Basically, I love this game, but I still want to be able to play it in the meanwhile.  So, if I am willing to pay for some options, to be able to continue playing right now, with the things I don't want in my gaming 'optioned out', rather than wait and see if they add them in, for free, at some later date, I'm providing a clear path for them to make money off of me, while giving me the options that I want/need to keep playing, right now in the short term, and even if the game is changed, later on, I'll still have had the pleasure of playing the way I want, while they continue working on the game.

For instance, I've been asking for "party play" to become a thing since I learned how to make my own private games, but just in the last week or so did I realize that TFP don't need to go into the code and rewrite all kinds of things to make this happen.   Picture a group of friends, wanting to party up and play (and learn) together, and they want to meet up and fight their way to the trader together.  Then what happens?  My group spawns in, the two married folks spawn in within a couple hundred meters of each other, but I'm 1.5 Klicks away from the trader (and on the opposite side as well) from the trader.  What happens, they both die!  We tried several games, only once did my character spawn near one of them (the Husband of the husband and wife team), but then his wife was the one that spawned on the far side of the trader, and she died (again) before either of us could even get to the trader, let alone to where she spawned.  This happened over and over again.  And why, because TFP had designed this game without thought for those that wanted to spawn/play as a team.  Everyone was expected to start off on their own.

I had to learn how to alter the spawn points of the map, just to reduce the initial places a player could start the game at (I left a single spawn point in the game), so we finally could, and did, spawn in near each other.  This was not ideal, either, as the spawn point didn't have enough resources for three newbies, all spawning in at exactly the same point.  We managed to all make it to the trader, consistently, but then, with three clueless folks running around in a pack, we always ran short of supplies, because the game is still meant (and balanced) for solo starts.  What would fix this situation, you might ask.  Instanced loot during a quest/mission, for everyone in the party, doing all the loot locations in the PoI.  It is now mid/late November, and all this went down in late February.  Both these folks gave up on playing the legit game, because even though I learned what the easiest setting were, and used all but three on the easiest possible settings, they found it too hard.  Only the Husband is willing to try to learn how to play legit (without cheat/creative mode turned on), but we are still not to day 5 yet.

Yes, TFP may someday get around to making balance changes for teams of folks that want to play together, but that isn't a top priority for them, and they have no incentive to make it a priority.  Give us the ability to purchase "Option Packs", and see folks enjoy the game more, and the franchise getting some more funding, driving forward the willingness to create such paid content for those that don't like how things currently are, and are willing to pay for the options that would make the (legit) game more fun and playable.

I've been at this too long, and need a meal, more later, and thanks for pointing out stuff I need to do better.

 

[Riamus]

I definitely screwed that poll up, that's for sure!  I meant to have the choice where you use the options, but of course I royally messed that one up, even though that was the choice I myself wanted to vote for.  

The Idea with paid options?  Why not?  Mind you, If they were going to take their sweet time and eventually give me the option(s) that I want for free, that would be nice, but if that meant waiting a year or two to get them, I would already be gone on to something else.  Basically, I love this game, but I still want to be able to play it in the meanwhile.  So, if I am willing to pay for some options, to be able to continue playing right now, with the things I don't want in my gaming 'optioned out', rather than wait and see if they add them in, for free, at some later date, I'm providing a clear path for them to make money off of me, while giving me the options that I want/need to keep playing, right now in the short term, and even if the game is changed, later on, I'll still have had the pleasure of playing the way I want, while they continue working on the game.

For instance, I've been asking for "party play" to become a thing since I learned how to make my own private games, but just in the last week or so did I realize that TFP don't need to go into the code and rewrite all kinds of things to make this happen.   Picture a group of friends, wanting to party up and play (and learn) together, and they want to meet up and fight their way to the trader together.  Then what happens?  My group spawns in, the two married folks spawn in within a couple hundred meters of each other, but I'm 1.5 Klicks away from the trader (and on the opposite side as well) from the trader.  What happens, they both die!  We tried several games, only once did my character spawn near one of them (the Husband of the husband and wife team), but then his wife was the one that spawned on the far side of the trader, and she died (again) before either of us could even get to the trader, let alone to where she spawned.  This happened over and over again.  And why, because TFP had designed this game without thought for those that wanted to spawn/play as a team.  Everyone was expected to start off on their own.

I had to learn how to alter the spawn points of the map, just to reduce the initial places a player could start the game at (I left a single spawn point in the game), so we finally could, and did, spawn in near each other.  This was not ideal, either, as the spawn point didn't have enough resources for three newbies, all spawning in at exactly the same point.  We managed to all make it to the trader, consistently, but then, with three clueless folks running around in a pack, we always ran short of supplies, because the game is still meant (and balanced) for solo starts.  What would fix this situation, you might ask.  Instanced loot during a quest/mission, for everyone in the party, doing all the loot locations in the PoI.  It is now mid/late November, and all this went down in late February.  Both these folks gave up on playing the legit game, because even though I learned what the easiest setting were, and used all but three on the easiest possible settings, they found it too hard.  Only the Husband is willing to try to learn how to play legit (without cheat/creative mode turned on), but we are still not to day 5 yet.

Yes, TFP may someday get around to making balance changes for teams of folks that want to play together, but that isn't a top priority for them, and they have no incentive to make it a priority.  Give us the ability to purchase "Option Packs", and see folks enjoy the game more, and the franchise getting some more funding, driving forward the willingness to create such paid content for those that don't like how things currently are, and are willing to pay for the options that would make the (legit) game more fun and playable.

I've been at this too long, and need a meal, more later, and thanks for pointing out stuff I need to do better.

They are very unlikely to offer a paid set of options as a way to get options sooner.  Even if they offered that for some reason, it would happen the same time they would have made the options for free.  Paying doesn't mean it happens faster.  I doubt there are any options that anyone (or 99% of people) would pay for that aren't part of a DLC where those options are related to.

What you describe as "party play" is already easily possible.  At least on PC.  Console would be possible once they offer random maps and cross play.  You already figured out how to do that, but it's easy enough.  They should add an option for number of spawn points in RWG, but that's not something you'd pay for.  That is something that would be a free option.

Your instanced loot option isn't likely to ever happen.  The game is meant to be played cooperatively, so you work together to get what you need and share those resources.  Once you get used to the game, it is really easy.  But if you need extra help with resources, just go to your game's options and increase the loot percentage.  Double or triple it and you will not have any problems, even with everyone being too new to understand how and where to get enough resources.

In short, an "options pack" or any form of paid options requires the same effort as making those options free.  They won't get done sooner than free would, so there's really no value in it being paid.

 

[WarMongerian]

1 - Yes, I do use the options.

2 - Once cost is involved then I'd probably want to see what the features were, but I'd probably be cool with them.

3 - Forum badges are not of value to me. Being able to turn a badge off would be good if I thought the badge was dumb. Let me put it this way, I'm not buying a product for a forum badge, but if a purchase came with a badge that I thought was cool, then I might leav2 - e it on.

1 - Me too, and glad that even though I badly messed up the poll, folks are taking the time to respond.  What do you use to customize your private game settings?

2 - I have no idea what the costs would be, but the smaller the number of 'Options in a Pack', the lower I would want the cost.  An 'Expansion Pack', on the other hand, with new content, areas, items, etcetera, would be something that would cost more, and would have more.  An 'Option Pack', in my mind, would just be a way to control how the game can be fine tuned, and as such, wouldn't bring new content, just more controls for what already exists.

For instance, take the ongoing balancing act trying to get screamers to be a thing, and make a one size fits all solution.  Eventually, TFP will get to a place where they consider their 'Screamers' spawning system either finished, good enough, or

over it.  This doesn't mean that the end result of the Screamers will appeal to most players as a fun and good time, and something the players want to deal with.  My current solution, in my private game where I live long enough for this to become a thing, is just to use the enemy spawn toggle, so right after hoard night, I jus turn enemy spawn off, and then I don't get bothered by them.  A better option, would, in my opinion, would be to allow a player to control just how much Screamers they want in their game(s), and let them set that directly.  Like the setting for "Daily Quest Progression",



just allow player to directly set maximum allowed "Screamers Daily Spawn Limit", resetting at midnight, each game day, and once the player selected limit is reached, no more screamers for that game day.  Presto, without needing to wait for TFP to perfect the spawning in of screamers, players can now directly set how often (or if) the entire game mechanic of Screamer Spawning can take place, in their personal, private games.   We already have the way by which folks could use fine tuning controls to tailor their game play to maximize their enjoyment, and minimize frustration.  All we would need is a systematic approach to correcting/controlling gameplay, and paid "Option Packs" would allow for a quick and dirty way for players to voice their frustration, propose options/mention issues, and get a very simple solution, fast (because we don't need to wait for the whole game to be rewritten, just a few options), this would give TFP a bit of revenue, the players a fast and responsive way to get timely updates that address many (most?) player issues, and if they do the forum icons, anyone can take pride in their confirmed support of the franchise.

The only thing I would want, beyond this control on Screamers, would be some protection for my hoard nights.  I once had a Screamer outbreak while awaiting horde night, not a good thing, especially right now, with current issues.

 

[Riamus]

Honestly, screamers don't really bother me.  They might be a bit annoying when I'm busy, but otherwise, they don't matter much.  As soon as I hear them, I go out and kill them.  In many cases, before they scream for reinforcements.  And if I don't get them in time, then it takes 30 seconds or so to wipe up the reinforcements and get back to what I was doing.  Of course, I don't go "gun blazing" through POI all the time, so I rarely have screamers appear while doing quests.  For people who have that problem, it can be more frustrating.

They may add an option for screamer spawns at some point, but like I said, most new options are likely to occur right near the end once they have all the features they want added in.  I think they still plan a UI update, which would be the time when you could expect to see more options added.  I think there's even a suggestion thread about screamer options that you could add your support for if you wanted to look it up.  More support for a specific option means a higher chance they'll consider adding it.

Just keep in mind that there are a LOT of options that people would like to see, and they aren't likely to add every possible option.  They'll pick and choose whatever they think is most helpful.  After that, it's up to mods to fill in the gaps.  That doesn't help people on console, but that's something console players are familiar with and should expect.

 

[WarMongerian]

They are very unlikely to offer a paid set of options as a way to get options sooner.  Even if they offered that for some reason, it would happen the same time they would have made the options for free.  Paying doesn't mean it happens faster.  I doubt there are any options that anyone (or 99% of people) would pay for that aren't part of a DLC where those options are related to.

What you describe as "party play" is already easily possible.  At least on PC.  Console would be possible once they offer random maps and cross play.  You already figured out how to do that, but it's easy enough.  They should add an option for number of spawn points in RWG, but that's not something you'd pay for.  That is something that would be a free option.

1) - Your instanced loot option isn't likely to ever happen.  The game is meant to be played cooperatively, so you work together to get what you need and share those resources.  Once you get used to the game, it is really easy.  But if you need extra help with resources, 2) - just go to your game's options and increase the loot percentage.  Double or triple it and you will not have any problems, even with everyone being too new to understand how and where to get enough resources.

In short, an "options pack" or any form of paid options requires the same effort as making those options free.  They won't get done sooner than free would, so there's really no value in it being paid.

Just a small part, but the highlighted portions are in fact, not correct.

You have many times the post count that I do, but I find myself having to ask, what is your recent play experience in 7DTD?  I got this great game back on 2 Feb, 2024 after watching a friend getting frustrated and often angry at not being able to figure things out, and after watching his struggles, I told him I would buy and play this game with him if he was still playing it on Feb 1st.  Come Feb 1st, he was still playing, and the rest is history.  

The two problems with your above post (just the highlighted ones, mind you), are that they are not correct.  I know I didn't point this out up thread (just like a messed up my poll's answers), but my games settings are already at 200% loot (the highest the game currently allows), so no, in fact changing this setting will NOT help fix this issue.  Next, you must understand that currently, when folks play as an in-game party, on any "Retrieve Supplies" mission, the courier stachel is already being 'Instanced', so far from instanced loot not ever going to happen, it already is, but only applied to 'mix things up' by making it harder for teams to learn the game, by giving each player their own courier stachel, which sometimes rolls in the same spot as another team member, and sometimes not.

I realise that you are probably suffering the same condition that I encountered in college, that of someone that has years of experience, trying to help a new person learn how to do something that you learned how to do years ago.  The problem for my professors, they had forgotten how to 'not know' how to do something, and my advantage, wasn't because I was smarter or better than my teachers, but that my own recent experience of 'not knowing' was a fresh memory, and that gave me an advantage in helping others achieve their own "light bulb" moments.  Add in the effect that 7dtd is often updated,and...

In the last 30 days, I have played with the husband and wife team, and we had the instanced courier satchel, and non-instanced loot within the same PoI.  We just need all the loot locations to be instanced/per player, rather than just the quest completion loot.  If they can do it for the courier satchel, they can (and we need to have the option to make this happen, for those of us that play in a party) and should just apply this to all loot locations within a given PoI, for each member of the party at the time of the quest being started.

 

[Riamus]

Heh. Okay.  First, if you are still having trouble with resources when increased loot settings, then that is something that you need to figure out because it should be very easy with increased settings.  Keep in mind people play this game on minimum settings and even want lower than minimum settings, even with multiple players.  This isn't meant to say you are wrong or something... Just that it shows that there is a disconnect in how you play versus how the game is designed, and it would be something to sort out. There are some good gameplay videos and streamers you can watch to see how others play and manage resources.  But if there are specific resources you are struggling with, you can mention them and someone can give you tips.

Second, I didn't say that nothing was instanced.  I said loot (as in normal loot, not quest items that are required to turn in to complete a quest) are not instanced and are very unlikely to ever be.  That would be way too much loot in the game and greatly unbalance multiplayer versus single player.

As far a my own gameplay, I play regularly.  Currently, I'm only playing 2 players games, but I've done anywhere from 1 to 7 players and loot has never been an issue.  In any games I host, I always use 100% loot, and we are always swimming in loot before long.  Yes, some things are harder to get, especially in the early game, but there isn't anything wrong with that.

 

[zztong]

What do you use to customize your private game settings?

24-Hour Cycle - I use 60 minutes, but I think that's the default. I note it because many folks make it longer.

Day Length - I make the night two hours longer so that it is more like summer hours where I live in RL. It also used to make the Trader open at dawn. I'd like to be able to change the Trader's hours of business. I know I probably can by making a modlet, but I just haven't.

Blood Moon Frequency, Blood Moon Range, Blood Moon Warning - Sometimes I change those to randomize the Blood Moons, so maybe they'd be 6-8 days and give little to no warning. Other times I just play the defaults. I have played with no Blood Moons as well. That's a pretty chill game, but it has its appeals.

Blood Moon Count - I usually don't change it, but sometimes. I have enjoyed playing on servers where they maxed it out. I want to say the number only changes the rate I earn experience points. You can really rake in the XP when there are lots of zombies and you've got a good horde base. I don't always make a horde base. Basically, anything goes with this setting.

I'll make the Bedroll zone size match the Land Claim zone size. I don't care which size is used, but I want them to be the same.

That's it, really.

I'd like to have more flexibility on the air drops, making them like every 5 or 7 days. Or maybe making them 7 days, but containing twice the loot. (Single Player) I could possibly make this happen with a modlet. I just haven't felt strongly enough about it to bother.

I'm not opposed to higher Difficulty Settings, but I don't really like bullet sponge enemies.

EDIT:

I forgot, I'd really like to have a setting that let me make the world darker and make the world more foggy. I think those settings for Day, Night, and Horde Night would be cool. I really like dark and foggy horde nights where you only see zombies when they're moderately close.

 

[WarMongerian]

The only thing I have myself experimented with for the hoard night settings, were to turn them off initially, then later making them every night for a bit, then making them every 7 days again.  I like all the experimentation that you do, it sounds like you are getting in some great playtimes.

 

[WarMongerian]

That would be way too much loot in the game and greatly unbalance multiplayer versus single player.

As far a my own gameplay, I play regularly.  Currently, I'm only playing 2 players games, but I've done anywhere from 1 to 7 players and loot has never been an issue.  In any games I host, I always use 100% loot, and we are always swimming in loot before long.  Yes, some things are harder to get, especially in the early game, but there isn't anything wrong with that.

I'm still trying to understand where you are coming from in your replies, so I'll keep trying to understand...

1) - 2 player game.  Are you, by any chance, playing a competitive (maybe even PvP playstyle)?

2) - Unbalanced.  How is the potential of having such a setting, ever going to cause an imbalance between players?

The only way I can see the highlighted parts making any kind of sense, is in the context of multiple parties being in the game (at the same time), and in some kind of competitive stance one against the other.  Are you thinking in such terms?

If not...

My own thoughts were naturally in terms of what my gaming is like.  I have 2, (or three if the wife feels like joining us) folks in the game, all in the same party, all trying to play and stick together.  This would mean us all going as a group to a specific PoI/Quest, deal with it, and then return as a group to the trader, get the reward, and then get the next quest.

This is not faster that playing this PoI in single player, as I have to walk them through the PoI and make sure they are getting all the loot, and this takes many run throughs so they learn and retain a given PoI's spawns and loot locations.  From your replies, It seems that you are playing with folks that already know how to play, and not just with cheat mode on, is that the case?  When I play solo, I can clear any of these PoI much faster than my group can, and without instanced loot in the PoI's, what has happened over and over again, is one or the other (usually the husband) gets eyes on the loot location, and grabs it up without the other ever knowing about a given loot/spawn location, and while I do know how do a PoI repeatedly, again and again, and again, it is a very much slower process than it needs to be.

Maybe a setting for "Training Runs" could be implemented?

 

[Riamus]

1) no. 

2) You can always get a lot more loot on multiplayer than in single player simply because you have more people getting loot (assuming everyone is helping).  If you introduce a way to allow every pain in a party to get the same loot, you increase that significantly. 

Why don't we just break this down.  Note that these are example numbers and not intended to be accurate as I don't have numbers available and am not going to attend time getting them as it should bw clear enough. 

Single player: 

Time to complete and loot POI "x" is 15 minutes.  They get all the loot.  We will call that amount 10,000 dukes worth of loot. 

8 player (as the extreme example, where fewer players reduces this):

Time to complete and loot the same POI is 5 minutes with everyone helping.  Each person gets all the loot.  That is 80,000 dukes worth of loot and they did it in 1/3 the time, meaning they can then go out and loot even more in the same time it takes the single player to do so.

That is unbalanced.  Now, you may not care that it is much faster for multiplayer than for single player, but TFP have been making changes already to help balance then, so they clearly do care.  It won't ever be entirely balanced, but there is not reason to make it worse.

There is of course the obvious that not everyone in a party might do a quest together or scavenge together, but your suggestion of instanced loot would relate to people working together, so for an equal comparison, you can say that all players in the party do work together. 

As I mentioned before, if you have specific resources you are struggling with in multiplayer, list them and someone can give you tips on how to get enough.  Once you know the game, it really is very easy.

To be clear, multiplayer should be faster because more players use more resources.  However, they achieve this by being able to complete POI more quickly.  And most resource needs don't scale equally with the number of players.  You don't need parts for a weapon for every person if not everyone uses that weapon.  8 players don't need 8x the resources to build a base (unless they are crazy ).  And so on.  And so scale equally.  But even so, you can get enough resources without any real effort.

 

[WarMongerian]

Why don't we just break this down.  Note that these are example numbers and not intended to be accurate as I don't have numbers available and am not going to attend time getting them as it should br clear enough. 

Single player: 

Time to complete and loot POI "x" is 15 minutes.  They get all the loot.  We will call that amount 10,000 dukes worth of loot. 

8 player (as the extreme example, where fewer players reduces this):

Time to complete and loot the same POI is 5 minutes with everyone helping.  Each person gets all the loot.  That is 80,000 dukes worth of loot and they did it in 1/3 the time, meaning they can then go out and loot even more in the same time it takes the single player to do so.

I'll address this as a fair premise.

1)  I may not have made it clear, in retrospect, that I am detailing the creation of, (and use of), an optional setting, specifically for use in a group of players learning the game, where one person knows enough of the game to make it worthwhile to get their friends to buy the game, and give it a try.

2)  Given that we are not talking about folks that know how to play the game as well as others, your premise that it will go faster with a party than a single player who is passably competent.  When was the last time you played in a party with folks that don't know what they are doing?  When did you last try to play such a game, while specifically doing quests?

3)  Your math seems off, in that you fail to address the lesser loot that new folks are going to get, as they keep missing stuff, while all of them will be needing 100% (if not more) of the food and drink requirements that a single player will incur, not too mention all the additional time needed and resources do to medical needs from all the injuries the newbies are going to suffer while trying to run thru a PoI, again and again, and again, until they ALL learn how to properly clear/loot any given PoI.

4)  In it's current state, the game is wrongly written to make this harder than a single player just ignoring the new folks, and letting them get frustrated, and becoming former players, as opposed to egar players that tell all their friends about what a great game 7DTD is, and how they can then teach all their friends how to play, and so get more and ever more paying customers all eagerly buy/playing the game.

5)  Right now, playing this game as it is currently written, someone like me, who tries to get new folks up to speed, has to deal with one player always grabbing the loot locations without everyone else even seeing the loot location, and this is an issue, as some things are consumed when looted, and those that are not consumed, become empty, and those that were late to the location won't see it as a loot location rather than as just background dressing.

These are things I am dealing with when trying to demonstrate a PoI for other, new players.  it is not anywhere near as easy as you keep trying to make it out to be.  We have not even mentioned all the ways that TFP have made bad decisions (in the context of making learning and playing this game by new players that even have a friend willing to try to teach them how to play), such as making a time limit for the next person to be able to do a PoI (something like an hour of game time later between attempts), and going out f their way to make use of instanced loot, just to mess around with folks heads, and having the quest item/loot in random places instead of all in the same place, during the same instance of a playthrough of a single quest at a given PoI.  So "instanced loot" is already in the game, but in the opposite from what new players need.

What we have right now, is designed for experienced players, to keep things from being boring.  What we need for new players, lucky enough to have a friend trying to show them how to play the game legit, is option packs, where "Party play" is one such option, made at game creation, by the more experienced player, to make training the new players (read as: paying customers) easier rather than harder.  Under "party play", we would want things like:

A)  All players are in the same party, all the time, while in a game with Party Play selected (this is not an issue, see below).

B)  Only the host (the most experienced player) can be the party leader.

C)  All quests the party leader gets (in the notional party play mode) are the only quests the new players can have.

D)  All loot at the PoI, need to start off as Instanced, Identical.  See below.

E)  All party play quests need to have options, for training purposes.  See Below.

Using the only computer 'skills' I have (cut and paste, lol), I'll attempt to show how this could look...

Starting with the "Death Penalty", I get the following pop up:

We can easily imagine something like:

Party Play = All players in one party, all the time.  Only usable in games hosted where the host will the party leader.

Instanced Loot = Identical.  All loot, identical and instanced for each party member.  Everyone gets their share, every time.

                         = Random.  Everyone get all loot locations, instanced for each player, but random contents.

More could be done, of course, but this is the gist of this idea.  Right now, the trader system has undergone several iterations with players/parties/and bad or confusing outcomes, this way, in this case (of a proposed option not in exitance at the moment), all player would be lumped into the host's party, with the host as party leader handling all the quest interactions with the merchant, so they can prevent any other player from selecting any quests of their own, as this is intended as a training tool.  Only the host/party leader can select a mission, and all players must accompany the leader to the quest PoI, be present at start of quest, and not leave the area (same as always/currently).

On the matter of training, when in Party Play mode, it would be nice to have an option, to do 'Practice Runs' of a quest, so that, instead of a single Pre-Clear of the PoI, and then the actual clear attempt, a trainer could discuss everyone's comfort level/expertise with a given PoI, and launch a series of {practice runs} of a given PoI, so folks can get as many shots at doing the thing enough to not be clueless later on, when they do it for real.

On a personal note, I have found it very beneficial to be able to do a PoI, over and over again, until I am familiar with the spawn points of enemies, both the always something there ones (as well as the maybe someone/something there spawn points with the PoI), and to get an idea of the loot locations and their possible/probable loots.  For training purposes, 'instanced and Identical' loot would be my go-to starting off point, and as the folks become familiar with the game, with the randomized loot being a more challenging option, later on.  For instance, if Instanced, Identical loot was on, and one person didn't have their toilet pistol, it would be easy to lead them back to the toilet in question.

I would like to share some instances of trying to train new folks to understand/enjoy this great game.

War, "Alright troops, here is the fabled (insert the tier one quest locations PoI name), we are going in all guns blazing (ignoring, for the moment, the fact that we do not yet in fact, have any guns) and kick some Zombie Butt".  

Husband and Wife team:  "Hell Yeah".

Front door puts up valiant resistance, but, in a hotly contested bout of newbies being newbies, eventually, the poor, misunderstood, innocent little door is smashed down, where upon, the question is asked, "did you try to just open the door, or did your homicidal urges just take over"?

Blushes and guilty pleasure looks go round...

"Ahem, let's try to at least not wake up the whole countryside, and clear this PoI room-by-room".

Husband decides to charge right in, gets ganked, party has to try to save him, loot runs low...

Husband immediately grabs any and all Loot locations, often before Wife has had a chance to even see it.

In retaliation, Wife starts doing this, and Husband is left without loot.

Repeat ad nauseam.

Right now, as is, this game is very well built and balanced, for single player.  It is not setup to make it easy for a trainer/player, to get their friends to buy this game, come play with him/her, and teach them how to get themselves up and running.  Everything from initial spawning into the game, is setup to make it a solo start, and while that is definitely immersive, it is also making it harder for folks to be brought into this game, learn how things work, and then do their first solo playthroughs.

At a minimum, we need spawn point options, that let the host trim the list down (all the way to one spawn point if needed), so groups of friends can start together, and a party friendly setup, so no confusion over who has what quest, and who can join a quest, and...

I am to tired to continue this right at the moment, but will take a nap and eat some toast....

Later

 

[meganoth]

2) I was doing this with two friends who didn't know the game some 2 years ago. Both of them had been playing PC games for years though, one was aged about 20, the other somewhere around 50. We spawned in different locations and they had no problems reaching the trader independently from me. We played vanilla settings and it seemed they had no problem with difficulty or getting resources. The younger player was actually ninja-looting a bit but when I told him we want to loot stuff as well he adapted and left us loot as well. Since we brought back and shared the loot anyway it also didn't matter much who found what.

So what is the difference to your game? Your friends sound like they never played a first-person action game before. It also sounds as if they haven't learned how to avoid getting hit by zombies at all, in fact it sounds like their melee fights are them trading hits with zombies. They probably just walk up on a zombie, stand still and hit the zombie until dead, while the zombie hits them multiple times as well.

Doing it this way means you will fail the game at the most basic level. Almost all players with a minimum of experience in any action game will realize in the first 5 minutes or 5 hours of playing this game that they have to advance on the zombie, hit it, and retreat fast so the zombie doesn't hit them. Also they would realize that they are faster than the zombies and can just outrun them. Or they would realize that even if they are bad at avoiding hits they can use arrows from a safe distance to kill or damage zombies.

Or the more experienced player teaching them the game could tell them all this.

Suddenly getting to the trader all alone would not be a sure death sentence and doesn't need a more experienced player to chaperone. Suddenly they don't die multiple times a day or need an absurd amount of healing bandages or food. Suddenly they don't need to memorize POIs to clear them.

My friends didn't need training to loot a POI, the "training" was just doing quests in random POIs. No need to restart a POI quests. In fact I never heard from anyone before that he does this, and we do get new players posting here.

5) What about telling the husband that he should let everyone do some looting? And maybe put up some rules. For example we usually have a rule that everyone in the group gets to loot at least one of the loot containers in the final room. Recently we also added the rule that the quest owner has first pick. Also I probably don't need to mention that we give magazines and books to the person who needs them and collect all stuff in containers at the home base. Playing co-op and sharing needs to be learned. Once you really play co-op you will notice how much faster everyone progresses in a group than if you were playing single.

Repeat ad nauseam.

If they repeat the mistakes ad nauseum it means they don't seem to learn from them.

I probably sound to you like a veteran who is unable to grok what a new player has to deal with. But there are new players joining the game all the time and mostly they don't have these problems. The game is designed so that typical players can master it. It is not designed so that the 90 year old aunt who only played Bridge and Canasta all her life could fire it up and have a smooth experience. In other words, I wouldn't call it an entry-level game for total PC game newbs. It may be in the future, but I doubt it.

Your friends are probably not a lost cause, just teach them the basics of melee and maybe, when they get the hang of it, everything else will become much easier.

Also clearing a POI means sometimes just to retreat to a previous room if you come against multiple zombies and let them come and kill them one by one, with all of you concentrating on one zombie. No need to memorize a POI, just look into a room and when you see multiple zombies, go back to a previous room and deal with them unfairly by ganging up on them. Rule number one is you should avoid fighting 2 or more zombies at the same time.

 

[Riamus]

I would say that you underestimate the ability of new players to learn, even without help.  But we don't have specific data from a large enough number of new players to know that for sure.  Dying is not a bad thing for a new player.  It teaches them what they can and cannot handle.  It teaches them to play the game.  Some games you will play head on attacks and some you will play stealth because head on will always result in death.  This game mostly allows the first option... if you are smart.  But if you played a game that is intended as a stealth game and you keep trying to go in using a frontal attack, you will die and you will learn that's not how to play that game.  This is true for any game, and unless someone is not a gamer at all, they should already understand this.  Your example of the player purposely grabbing loot quickly while overwhelmed would be what someone who plays games would do.  If they didn't play games, they would instead be far more likely to just try to run away.  A gamer is someone who will try to grab loot even if being killed.

Also, very few people new to the game would actually need a tour guide or trainer to walk them through how to play the game.  They might join friends or others, who may give them tips or suggestions or answer questions, but few would need anything more than that.  Join a party, maybe die, maybe not get as much loot as others, but you share loot, so it doesn't matter much.  Maybe you start slower than those with experience, but it doesn't really matter.

In reality, this game is very easy for anyone with even a little experience with action games, at least with the default settings.  If someone only plays casual games, they may struggle a bit, but they'll learn if they decide they like the game.  And if they decide they don't like the game, that's okay.  This game isn't going to be what everyone likes.  If loot is really such a difficult thing, loot settings can already be increased.

As far as the math... 1) it's an example where I specifically said the numbers were made up, 2) it is still faster with multiple players and it is definitely easier with multiple players even if you have to share loot.  Anyone playing the game for any length of time will tell you this.

For general loot in a POI, you don't need to all see that the loot is there before someone takes it.  Why would you?  So what if someone grabs the trash pile before anyone else sees it?  For the loot room, some loot piles disappear, but there will always be boxes and either a lockbox or a leather chest remaining, so everyone will see that's where the loot room is.  Unless someone purposefully destroys those, of course.  If someone is a loot ninja and grabs everything before others can, well... that's just how some people play and you either choose to play with them and accept that you have to hurry if you want to loot, or you choose not to play the game with them.  Just because some people are like that doesn't mean you need instanced loot.

Now, let's look at how a party should function in this game (and others, really):

You will join a party with one or more people and go out to do a quest together.  You all go through the POI, sometimes together, sometimes not, depending how you choose to play.  Each of you grabs loot as you go, or one person loots everything, again depending on how you choose to play (everyone looting tends to work better due to storage space).  After you finish and have grabbed the loot, you either start another quest or go back to base and unload.  The person who loots something normally will be the one who keeps whatever weapon or tool or armor they find, if they can use it.  Everything else goes into a shared set of containers for others to grab from.  If one person loots all the time before others get a chance, they'll probably be first to get better equipment, but once they have it, all future equipment that isn't better gets shared and if they find something better, their old equipment gets shared.  In the end, people stay relatively level in equipment even if one person generally has a little better equipment if they loot stuff more than others do.  If people are smart, they do not read magazines they don't need so that someone else who is using a specific magazine can level it up.  That is something a party needs to agree on.  If they can't agree, then they should consider a different party.

You mention food and drink as if it's hard to find.  Go through half a dozen tier 1 residential POI and only look in the kitchens and you will find enough to satisfy you.  That can be done in very little time.  If you really need to, you can drink your fill of water from a ditch or pond.  You risk getting dysentery, but that really isn't really that bad of a debuff and you can max out your water quickly that way if you struggle to find water.  Besides, a green pill prevents dysentery and you find those quite often in loot.  But you should have no trouble getting a dew collector set up within a couple of days (your starting water should last you that long unless you're doing a ton of sprinting or something like mining).  With more people in a group, you can complete a lot of quests pretty quickly, each person earning good money.  This should make it easy (especially with more players) to buy the mods for the dew collectors.  If you don't want to boil the water, you can get the mod so you get clean water.  If you want water faster with fewer dew collectors, get the mod to do that.  Yes, they cost money, but more people means more quests means more money.  Even single player, it isn't too hard to get some of those mods early in the game.  Eggs and meat are your food source early in the game.  You shouldn't ever be eating canned food unless it's one that doesn't have a recipe (like pears or anything chicken related).  Eggs are easy to find and if each person spends a short time running in a different direction, or at least spread out, they'll find a decent number for making food.  Or you have one person who is the cook go out and grab a lot of eggs while others are doing other things.  Whatever works for the group.  Meat is normally easy to come by, though it's random because animals are less common in the forest these days.  But I've rarely had much trouble with meat.  You just need to keep an eye out and be willing to stop what you are doing to kill any animal you see when running around and then skin it.  If you struggle with that, put a point into the animal tracking perk.  You can also boil corn if needed and corn is extremely easy to find.  And it's extremely easy to set up some farm plots and plant corn seed that can be found everywhere, and even without points in LotL, you can easily farm a ton of corn without any difficulty.  Boiled corn isn't great because it uses water when you eat it, but it's an option.  And as mentioned, if you need to, you can drink from a water source.  There are just so many options for food and drink in this game and neither is difficult past the first day or two if you have even a little experience with the game.

In the end, more people will progress faster than a single player, assuming everyone is working as a team.  Instanced loot isn't a good option and would make large parties end up with huge amounts of loot.

Also, keep in mind that you can set rules for your party if you have to deal with someone who wants to loot everything.  A simple rule is that only the person whose quest it is can loot the loot room, or that they get to loot what they want from it before anyone else.  That is an easy rule to follow and is easy to verify that others are not ignoring the rule.  If you play with someone who won't agree to something like that, you just don't play the game with them.  It's not really that hard to play a coop game if you try.

 

[meganoth]

You shouldn't ever be eating canned food unless it's one that doesn't have a recipe (like pears or anything chicken related)

I often hear this advice but I disagree. It takes quite some time until you get the recipes for the canned foods and by that time you have looted a lot more canned food so that the cans you find in your first days don't matter much. The advice is good for experienced players who don't have any problems with food in early game and want to further optimize their play.

But if you have problems with food in early game then canned food is just more easy food to fill the gaps in your food supply until the farm eventually takes over.

It is like a market with supply and demand: Early game food is scarce, so 20 food are worth a lot. Late game you can get 80 food out of the same can but food isn't scarce anymore so there is massive inflation on the worth of 1 food.