Subquake's Undead Legacy

[CrocoKyle]

...to be fair, the last UL version was released two and a half years ago. His patreon currently has 262 paid members. The lowest paid tier is $2.50/month. So his supporters have paid an absolute minimum of 262 x $2.50 x 30 months or $19,650 waiting for this update since the last version release. (The highest paid tier is $50/month, so the real cost is somewhere between $19,650 and $393,000) Two and a half years and at least $20k for a version update feels like a bit much.

 

[bdubyah]

...to be fair, the last UL version was released two and a half years ago. His patreon currently has 262 paid members. The lowest paid tier is $2.50/month. So his supporters have paid an absolute minimum of 262 x $2.50 x 30 months or $19,650 waiting for this update since the last version release. (The highest paid tier is $10/month, so the real cost is somewhere between $19,650 and $78,600) Two and a half years and at least $20k for a version update feels like a bit much.

And that is their choice to support him that way. But no matter how many people are doing it, or how much each gives, Subquake owes them nothing in return. It isn't a contract or something. If they feel it isn't worth it then they can simply stop supporting him.

What i do find issue with, however, is his lack of communication here regarding progress.

He is a modder, not a game studio. He doesn't owe you anything. And he has posted here enough for people to know he is still plugging away. Asking him for daily/weekly posts is just asking to potentially burn him out or something. The entitlement here is too strong.

It's a late game luxury/goal for most players, and that's all it need to remain as, at least for the purposes of getting the mod out sooner. If he wants to expand/enhance the system, great. But something like that sounds extensive (from a timeframe/mod work standpoint) and it should have remained a "side" project for the mod, something for him to work on between official releases, as opposed to immediately being incorporated into the work in progress, and thus slowing the whole thing down.

That is 100% your opinion and since it isn't your mod, you don't get to make decisions on what is "worth" holding up a release for. Sub makes that call, not you.

 

[wolfarus]

And that is their choice to support him that way. But no matter how many people are doing it, or how much each gives, Subquake owes them nothing in return.

Wow, really? And you call ME entitled?

That's one of the main points of patreon. You help pay (or donate, if you want to get technical) somebody to do something that you and they want to do. You give them $ to help bring that product out. The instant somebody starts taking $ from the public to fund something, they VERY much do "owe something" to their backers. And given that this forum is still the main way (as far as i can tell just from reading the various posts in this topic thruout the years) that people get their info from concerning the mod, he can at least stop by 1x a month and take a cple mins to make a post and give everyone here a summary of progress, as opposed to (just) occasionally showing a new thing that's being put into the mod.

As for your points to me, yes it was/is my OPINION. Not once in my 2 posts have i demanded he do anything. I'm simply voicing my frustration (now that my patience for this has run out) and saying what he SHOULD be doing. Keyword: SHOULD.  

Now i suggest you take your little self, go vroom around navezgane in your dune buggy, calm down and come back when you can reply with some maturity.

 

[BFT2020]

It's a late game luxury/goal for most players, and that's all it need to remain as, at least for the purposes of getting the mod out sooner. If he wants to expand/enhance the system, great. But something like that sounds extensive (from a timeframe/mod work standpoint) and it should have remained a "side" project for the mod, something for him to work on between official releases, as opposed to immediately being incorporated into the work in progress, and thus slowing the whole thing down.

And what makes you entitled to tell a modder what they should be working on and what they shouldn't be working on?  Last I checked, UL is Subquake's mod.  That means he gets to make the decisions on what he wants to add to the mod and what he doesn't want to add to the mod.  He gets to prioritized what work he is doing on it.

If you want to direct someone on what they should do in a mod, hire some developers to develop your mod and direct to your heart's content.

 

[bdubyah]

Wow, really? And you call ME entitled?

That's one of the main points of patreon. You help pay (or donate, if you want to get technical) somebody to do something that you and they want to do. You give them $ to help bring that product out. The instant somebody starts taking $ from the public to fund something, they VERY much do "owe something" to their backers. And given that this forum is still the main way (as far as i can tell just from reading the various posts in this topic thruout the years) that people get their info from concerning the mod, he can at least stop by 1x a month and take a cple mins to make a post and give everyone here a summary of progress, as opposed to (just) occasionally showing a new thing that's being put into the mod.

As for your points to me, yes it was/is my OPINION. Not once in my 2 posts have i demanded he do anything. I'm simply voicing my frustration (now that my patience for this has run out) and saying what he SHOULD be doing. Keyword: SHOULD.  

Now i suggest you take your little self, go vroom around navezgane in your dune buggy, calm down and come back when you can reply with some maturity.

Patreon is just a way to support modders/creators. He still doesn't owe you anything. There is no contract. 

And yes, your entitlement. The fact that a modder has made an awesome mod that you can play for free, and you are "frustrated" with how long it takes him to update it. People really will complain about anything. 

And I think the word you meant was COULD be doing, not should. Should implies you know better than him what he should spend his time on. You don't. It's his mod, he can work on whatever he pleases. I've seen more than a few good modders leave the scene after having to deal with whiners like you. You aren't helping anything. Just have some patience and don't say anything if it's just gonna be negative. 

 

[Subquake]

...to be fair, the last UL version was released two and a half years ago. His patreon currently has 262 paid members. The lowest paid tier is $2.50/month. So his supporters have paid an absolute minimum of 262 x $2.50 x 30 months or $19,650 waiting for this update since the last version release. (The highest paid tier is $50/month, so the real cost is somewhere between $19,650 and $393,000) Two and a half years and at least $20k for a version update feels like a bit much.

Has anyone taught you, that it's rude to discuss such things about other people? The fact that the mod is available for free to download for everyone, doesn't mean that maintaining and working on future updates is. I wonder how would you feel, if other people would discuss your salary publicly online and if the work you put into whatever you are doing is worth something or not?

Supporters are what keeps the project alive and well, without all of the amazing people who have been supporting me in the past and are supporting me actively none of what I'm working on would be possible (my time spent on making it which is over 10000 hours easily at this point, all the assets, all the licenses, all the maintenance costs for server hosting, website etc) and it's not all about update frequency, but about actual content and features the updates bring, that's what is important. You don't go to a restaurant and don't demand a 3 course meal to be served equally fast as a burger in a fast food place. Some updates are more frequent, others take longer. A16 to A19 update for me took two years to develop and was a fraction of complexity compared to the changes coming with next 2.7 update.

Personal issues are completely justifiable in terms of delay, so i'm not upset/holding that against him one bit.

What i do find issue with, however, is his lack of communication here regarding progress. Yes, he's posted on this forum a bit here and a bit there, but hardly enough for people to go on and get the info they need to keep waiting vs thinking the mod has been abandoned (or giving folks like me the impression that it has been) And obviously by the amount of people we've had coming here vs finding the discord, he should have taken the scant few minutes for a post, 1x a month or so, to come into this thread, and give people a basic summary of the work done thus far, keeping the non-discord users in the general loop.

As for the electricity overhaul, that's one of the VERY few things, if not the only thing, that i think vanilla 7d has gotten right so far. It's not too complicated or needlessly "tier'd".

It's a late game luxury/goal for most players, and that's all it need to remain as, at least for the purposes of getting the mod out sooner. If he wants to expand/enhance the system, great. But something like that sounds extensive (from a timeframe/mod work standpoint) and it should have remained a "side" project for the mod, something for him to work on between official releases, as opposed to immediately being incorporated into the work in progress, and thus slowing the whole thing down.

Again, i love the mod thus far and i honestly hope to be proven wrong about my (admittedly out of patience grumpyness) post about the mod being abandoned.

All your messages just sound like backseat modding. What makes you think, that your opinion is more important than my opinion or anyone else? Feedback is important and I take it seriously, but a single persons feedback will never be more significant than the overall feedback of the whole community who enjoy UL for the reasons they do. This just sounds super entitled from your end feeling the sole responsibility and right to decide what's worth my focus and time and what isn't. Be patient, the update will come. I understand the frustration of waiting for so long, but all good things take time. Do something else in the meantime and enjoy UL when the update arrives or play the older version in the meantime for a20.7. Mod is not abandoned, I communicate on UL's discord pretty much daily, it's not my obligation to look after people, who can't do just a bit of research and more digging around and saying things are abandoned without checking the facts first.

I've seen more than a few good modders leave the scene after having to deal with whiners like you. You aren't helping anything. Just have some patience and don't say anything if it's just gonna be negative. 

I heard stories, it's very sad to hear that some long time modder deciding to quit what they are doing because of feeling discouraged to do more and just feeling unappreciated. It's probably more common than we might think, many just don't talk about it and less popular mod authors just move on with something else and never come back. 7 Days is a fantastic game and I am super appreciative to TFP to allow us work on all these crazy mods and sometimes change the game so drastically, offering people who enjoy the game a different perspective on how it could play and I think there's huge potential in what could be changed in the future.

 

[CrocoKyle]

Has anyone taught you, that it's rude to discuss such things about other people? The fact that the mod is available for free to download for everyone, doesn't mean that maintaining and working on future updates is. I wonder how would you feel, if other people would discuss your salary publicly online and if the work you put into whatever you are doing is worth something or not?

Supporters are what keeps the project alive and well, without all of the amazing people who have been supporting me in the past and are supporting me actively none of what I'm working on would be possible (my time spent on making it which is over 10000 hours easily at this point, all the assets, all the licenses, all the maintenance costs for server hosting, website etc) and it's not all about update frequency, but about actual content and features the updates bring, that's what is important. You don't go to a restaurant and don't demand a 3 course meal to be served equally fast as a burger in a fast food place. Some updates are more frequent, others take longer. A16 to A19 update for me took two years to develop and was a fraction of complexity compared to the changes coming with next 2.7 update.

All your messages just sound like backseat modding. What makes you think, that your opinion is more important than my opinion or anyone else? Feedback is important and I take it seriously, but a single persons feedback will never be more significant than the overall feedback of the whole community who enjoy UL for the reasons they do. This just sounds super entitled from your end feeling the sole responsibility and right to decide what's worth my focus and time and what isn't. Be patient, the update will come. I understand the frustration of waiting for so long, but all good things take time. Do something else in the meantime and enjoy UL when the update arrives or play the older version in the meantime for a20.7. Mod is not abandoned, I communicate on UL's discord pretty much daily, it's not my obligation to look after people, who can't do just a bit of research and more digging around and saying things are abandoned without checking the facts first.

I heard stories, it's very sad to hear that some long time modder deciding to quit what they are doing because of feeling discouraged to do more and just feeling unappreciated. It's probably more common than we might think, many just don't talk about it and less popular mod authors just move on with something else and never come back. 7 Days is a fantastic game and I am super appreciative to TFP to allow us work on all these crazy mods and sometimes change the game so drastically, offering people who enjoy the game a different perspective on how it could play and I think there's huge potential in what could be changed in the future.

Your dev work is paid in part by patrons, who you solicit for openly on the internet. I did a simple calculation that anyone could do. So your salary is literally in your bio. Acting offended by someone discussing that which is not only public knowledge, but you indeed indirectly promote is...odd. And comparing yourself to me, when you have no idea what I do for a living, is further odd. You've collected tens of thousands of dollars from your supporters and fans developing this version  of UL - that is undeniable fact. Instead of feigning offense, you could have turned that into anticipation by suggesting all that money went to good use and this version will be worth it, etc. Odd.

 

[MofuMerchant]

Your dev work is paid in part by patrons, who you solicit for openly on the internet. I did a simple calculation that anyone could do. So your salary is literally in your bio. Acting offended by someone discussing that which is not only public knowledge, but you indeed indirectly promote is...odd. And comparing yourself to me, when you have no idea what I do for a living, is further odd. You've collected tens of thousands of dollars from your supporters and fans developing this version  of UL - that is undeniable fact. Instead of feigning offense, you could have turned that into anticipation by suggesting all that money went to good use and this version will be worth it, etc. Odd.

Just because you keep saying he is odd does not make it true, it is you who is being a weirdo by wallet watching him when it's literally donations to keep the project going.
Also he didn't compare himself to you what are you on? I can't make what he said any simpler so read it again if you didn't understand it. Anybody who supports him via patreon, paypal etc should explicitly understand it is support for his project and not a paid product that will be released X date. Is 2.5 years a long time for an update? Yes should he post more update stuff on patreon? Yes, for his own sake. But things just simply add up and doesn't all goes to plan, the electricity changes took forever a20 to a21 took forever plus he wanted other stuff to go along with those changes so it just all combines into a super long time to finally update. It is his own best interest to update more often as that is better for his financials but he wanted all these great changes in one update.
Lastly I don't think he needs to feign offense, it is genuinely annoying for people to act entitled to your wallet especially when he is still very much working on the project.

 

[wakeybakey]

Your dev work is paid in part by patrons, who you solicit for openly on the internet. I did a simple calculation that anyone could do. So your salary is literally in your bio. Acting offended by someone discussing that which is not only public knowledge, but you indeed indirectly promote is...odd. And comparing yourself to me, when you have no idea what I do for a living, is further odd. You've collected tens of thousands of dollars from your supporters and fans developing this version  of UL - that is undeniable fact. Instead of feigning offense, you could have turned that into anticipation by suggesting all that money went to good use and this version will be worth it, etc. Odd.

This argument and your prior ones may hold water if this was a more conventional product. But this is free mod. You are lucky to even know about it, however old the most recent version of it is, and you can choose to support him or not, but when he flat out tells you that there is no timetable to these updates, it is no business of yours how much money he takes in from willing donors. 

Besides that, your earlier point about you feeling like the game is abandoned is your problem, nobody else's. Every couple weeks I check the release date for the next version on the mod's main page. Then when I see it's still TBA I check this forum and the Discord. I always see that Subquake has posted SOMETHING since the last time I checked. That is enough for me to know it is not abandoned. The original 7D2D Dev Blog went longer without word from TFP so often it became the norm to think the vanilla game was abandoned. You're expecting the output of a full-time team yet you've done the calculations so you should know he doesn't have the resources for that. 

 

[bdubyah]

Your dev work is paid in part by patrons, who you solicit for openly on the internet. I did a simple calculation that anyone could do. So your salary is literally in your bio. Acting offended by someone discussing that which is not only public knowledge, but you indeed indirectly promote is...odd. And comparing yourself to me, when you have no idea what I do for a living, is further odd. You've collected tens of thousands of dollars from your supporters and fans developing this version  of UL - that is undeniable fact. Instead of feigning offense, you could have turned that into anticipation by suggesting all that money went to good use and this version will be worth it, etc. Odd.

The problem here is you don't seem to understand that being a patron, or supporting a modder through tips/donations/whatever is not a guarantee for future updates, or anything for that matter. You aren't "buying" a future update. You are simply showing support to someone who created something you like. No different than subbing to a streamer or having a membership to a Youtuber. Just because you gave them money doesn't mean they owe you anything. They could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing you can do. Saying something like:

Two and a half years and at least $20k for a version update feels like a bit much.

is just silly. That simply isn't how it works, no matter what you think or feel about it. Besides, if the time it take for Sub to update the mod is such an issue, why are so many people still supporting him? Oh right, because they just appreciate the work he has put in. That's what the support is for. I'm really not sure why this even has to be explained to you people, it should be common sense. This is a free-to-download mod, not an EA game that promised you future updates when you bought it.

 

[Rakarvi]

Hallo Subquake! There are a lot of alternatively gifted people in this world, I ask you, as a fan of UL, and a fan of talented people in general, do not pay attention to them until they say something reasonable, considering other people's money is basically bad form, not to mention telling a person that he owes to do and how, the mod is amazing, unfortunately it is impossible to play vanilla after it. However, I am infinitely glad that the mod continues to evolve, and for those individuals who believe that it has been done for a very long time, I would advise them to pay close attention to the aspects that AAA projects sometimes take many years to complete, although several dozen, or rather several hundred people develop them, and it still takes a lot of time. Because I've heard that sometimes adding a new, seemingly insignificant section to the code leads to conflicts in many other sections of the code, so thank you SO much for the 10,000 hours you put into this game., I will be waiting for the next UL version. Understanding people are eternally grateful to you for the opportunity to basically play this work of art, but there simply isn't time for the rest. We wish you success, good luck and good health!

I wrote the message in Russian and translated it using a neural network, so if something in the text seems incorrect, it's artificial intelligence!

 

[Witchmaster]

And that is their choice to support him that way. But no matter how many people are doing it, or how much each gives, Subquake owes them nothing in return.

Here you are still wrong.
I am not subscribed to Patreon, it really does not owe me anything - I agree. But it still owes its subscribers. People go there for content, and not just to give money.
Imagine you bought a game for $100, and it either does not work or is buggy. You tell the developers "hey, your game does not work." And they tell you "we do not owe you anything, do we have a signed contract?".

 

[n2n1]

He doesn't owe you anything, morally or legally.
The only thing you can gently blame him for is if he constantly makes promises that he can't keep....were there any?

What the hell, have you completely lost your minds in your "civilized countries"?

 

[bdubyah]

Here you are still wrong.
I am not subscribed to Patreon, it really does not owe me anything - I agree. But it still owes its subscribers. People go there for content, and not just to give money.
Imagine you bought a game for $100, and it either does not work or is buggy. You tell the developers "hey, your game does not work." And they tell you "we do not owe you anything, do we have a signed contract?".

What is so hard to understand about this? The benefits of supporting him are there. The main ones are discord related stuff as far as I can tell, and I'm sure people are still getting that stuff. So they are getting what they "paid" for.

What does buying a game have to do with supporting a mod developer? They aren't the same. Why do I keep having to repeat this to you people? Come up with a better analogy and stop trolling, it's just sad.

 

[Witchmaster]

I won't argue, guys, apparently we have different visions of Patreon, but I can't agree that the author doesn't owe anything to his subscribers.

What the hell, have you completely lost your minds in your "civilized countries"?

I am from an "uncivilized" country, bro.
 

The only thing you can gently blame him for is if he constantly makes promises that he can't keep....were there any?

It doesn't matter to me, but yes, there were promises: the initial update date was somewhere around the end of summer 2023, then it changed to fall 2023, and then something went wrong and Subquake didn't give any more dates.

 

[n2n1]

It doesn't matter to me, but yes, there were promises: the initial update date was somewhere around the end of summer 2023, then it changed to fall 2023, and then something went wrong and Subquake didn't give any more dates.

i.e. he made a mistake once and never repeated it again? right?


 

I am from an "uncivilized" country, bro.

Ааа , ну значит, к тебе не относиться 

 

[Witchmaster]

i.e. he made a mistake once and never repeated it again? right?

Right, yes)