Story Mode Controversy --REDUX

I'm not entirely sure you're serious, but just in case you are...

Roland said:
Agreed. It is the Duke character himself. There’s no organized crime
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I think you missed the point. The "Casino Indian" trope promotes the stereotype that Native American casinos are (among other things) associated with organized crime.

You can't get much more associated with organized crime than being a crime boss.

Clearly, the Duke fits the stereotype.

Unless you think that someone who is the leader of a gang of thugs, who runs a shakedown racket and kills indiscriminately, is somehow not an organized crime boss? Maybe because there's no "crime" in a world without laws, or something like that?

Call it "organized villainy" if you like. It still doesn't mean the Duke is any less of a "Casino Indian" caricature.

It also means the "it's realistic" defense doesn't work for the Duke, even if there were cases where outside organized crime organizations occasionally infiltrated tribal casinos. The notion that it is the tribal casino leaders themselves who are the organized crime bosses (like the Duke) is completely unrealistic.

Roland said:
It’s just this one corrupt individual who you just admitted has no connection to organized crime. He’s unique. The exception to the rule.
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Nothing in the game files supports this interpretation. He is the only Native American casino owner in the entire game. He is not compared with other Native American casino owners; in fact no other Native Americans are even mentioned in the game, even as his rivals.

Let's return to the example of Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's (the film version). Would most people look at that portrayal of an Asian, and think the film is saying all the other Asians don't act like that?

No, and for the same reasons, most people would not look at the portrayal of the Duke and think the 7D2D writers were saying other Native American casino "owners" don't act like that. They'd think the Duke represented the norm.

Partly because that is the norm, if they believe the "Casino Indian" trope.

In fact, that might be the reason why there is so little information about the Duke before the war. TFP might not have felt it was needed, since "everyone knows" about Native American casino owners already. That's just a guess though.

Roland said:
Objection, your Honor. Hearsay.

Lines by characters aren’t necessarily the gospel truth. They are the perspectives of those characters. People who lose at casinos often accuse the casinos of being crooked because how else could they have lost?

Why trust Jen, Rekt, Hugh, and Bob at their word? I don’t trust them. The Duke is probably a great guy.
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For one thing, the first sentence was one of those "general" statements that all the traders used to say, before TFP made the traders root for different factions. So that clearly wasn't a "personal" opinion, it was just lore dump.

For another thing, they all agree with each other about who the Duke is, who he was, and what he does. They disagree about whether they like a brutal gang leader who runs a shakedown racket and kills people. The ones who consider him a "great guy" are the ones who seem to think might makes right.

I'd be happy to be wrong about that, but unless they significantly change the dialogue that is in the translation files, I won't be.
 
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khzmusik said:
I'd be happy to be wrong about that
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Then be happy and stop wasting your time on silly quests, or just die on this hill. :rolleyes:
Not even @Riamus , who told us is partly native American, is interested in your topic.

Also, you completely ignored proof I provided about cases in which native Americans were working hand in glove with The Mob.
Plus there's a case of a tribe that in the past actually created a racketeering crime organization. But, no, that's not enough for you, go figure.
 
Jost Amman said:
Then be happy and stop wasting your time on silly quests, or just die on this hill. :rolleyes:
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Sure. I'll just assume Roland is right, and all of the traders in the game are totally wrong about the Duke, and he's really just a great guy.

Also, I don't think either of us should berate the other for wasting their time, or being too willing to die on their hill. Glass houses and all that.

Jost Amman said:
Also, you completely ignored proof I provided about cases in which native Americans were working hand in glove with The Mob.
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I ignored nothing. I responded in detail to every news article you posted. Literally zero of them even suggested that Native American casinos were "working hand in glove with the Mob" (even the ones which did show corrupt tribal leaders). I won't rehash it, go back and read my post.

I also replied to the summary of the Mitchell book, though since you couldn't link to the entire text (with its sources), and I never heard of it before you mentioned it, I could only provide rebuttals written by others.

For what it's worth, I have been trying to track down independent confirmation of Mitchell's allegation that the Seminole Tribe originally took money for their first casino from anyone associated with the Mafia. There are conflicting accounts, and I have not found the original source for that claim.

But it doesn't matter much with regards to the "Casino Indian" trope. Even if that allegation is true, it happened before the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, and that created the laws under which tribal casinos nationwide are allowed to start or continue their operations. They are extraordinarily strict, and designed to keep out organized crime (and do other things as well).

Plenty of tribes lose their licenses for much less. You can find a list of those tribes on the NIGC website:

Enforcement Actions

www.nigc.gov www.nigc.gov

In other words, even if it was true in that case, it hasn't been true for decades.

...Also, just to be clear. We are talking about the "Casino Indian" trope, as a false and negative racial stereotype, as defined in all those articles I posted.

What exactly are you trying to say about this trope?
 
khzmusik said:
What exactly are you trying to say about this trope?
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That TFP are definitely allowed to depict a native American as a criminal exactly because there HAVE BEEN and currently ARE criminals inside the native American society EXACTLY like in ALL OTHER cultures.

We don't care that, in your opinion, there are no SPECIFIC precedents to justify what you call "a trope" associated to the Casino business.
There ARE precedents of criminal activity (also associated with The Mob) inside the native American culture.

You're so narrow minded in your replies that you don't even realize how far you're going to justify your position, it should be obvious what we're trying to say to you, but you don't see it. Incredible! :rolleyes:

Having a Native American faction as adversaries in a post apocalypse context says nothing about real Native Americans any more than The Road Warrior says something defamatory about Australians. Do you understand the difference?
 
I've been watching this thread since it started and.. Wow. This is kinda addictive.
I think you should be able to insert whatever stereotype into games, tv, or media of any sort as you see fit for the medium, baring anything so grossly explicit that you run into legality concerns. if your concepts are considered offensive, that is a risk inherent of all works- I'm sure I could pick apart many games and find things to offend me.
So on that note, I'm fine with the portrayal of a 'casino Indian', just as I am the portrayal of a Italian mafioso, or a Black rapper, or a Mexican farmer.. Why might this be? .. Because if you've ever a person in real life, you'll realize that people aren't limited to stereotypes. It's kinda like we all of the freedom to be whoever we want.. and some people might be drawn to certain lifestyles not because of their racial identity, but because that's just who they are at heart. Crazy, I know. I just don't see why anyone would look at the Duke, -a fictional character from a game where story has not been the focus- then lock in and say, 'This is the guy- this is who all Native Americans are'.
Pandora's box was opened long before this moment. Tropes exist, if you see them, you can't unsee them, but we all have the power to not take actions from fictional people, and assign them to real ones.
 
Since the .. thing .. is posted as a "warning", I'll give my risk assessment. I'm a complete layman but well versed in gamer controversies since Sarkeesian.

Strongest case: TFP publishes the story as exactly as bad as khz fears.. Duke is The Pure Evil Indian crime lord. "Joining him" is simply a matter of killing everyone else. Etc.

What'll happen:
90%+ likelihood: No-one cares. Not a peep in social media. Story might be called lame, but Duke won't cause any change in anything.

In the couple percent gap, where someone manages to rile up a small uproar on socials, AND TFP botches the response: loss of 2-200 units sold. Lot's of posturing, no leverage.

If on the other hand, TFP simply provides a decently based response "Yup, that's what we wrote. Go away".. possibly 200-2000 units sold extra, in simple support purchases.

Gamers, the actual buyers, are sick and tired of activist corruption; any company standing up to that will grab quite a few support votes, some of those will turn into actual money. The "modern activist audience" does not buy games, not even titles perfectly tailored for them, much less random mechanical grinders like this one.

In either case, we're talking about a difference of a couple hundred copies. The issue is so ridiculously small, that you'd have to appeal to people who are nostalgic for their childhood games of Cowboys and Indians to have any effect here. The old farts that are still wondering what on earth was that banned for ... ;)
 
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