PC Stone->Iron->Steel is unbalanced.

[Solomon]

This is not a bad start for a comparison, buuuuuut...

This is placing a value on 'stamina' as the basis of the comparison. Usually the difference between using a Stone Axe or an Iron Pick-Axe is speed. Yes, early game stamina can be a crucial commodity, but around the time you should be getting Iron tier tools the rate you use stamina is often equal to the rate you gain (or close enough). This means the stamina net cost is negligible (really low and comparable to each other). Durability, mod slots, and frankly speed is a greater concern. This is why the T4 tools don't really have a stamina cost but rather a fuel cost, and are incredibly fast.

That all being said, maybe the stamina cost of Iron Tools should be lowered a bit so that it's not worse across the board than primitive ones (running out of stamina does affect speed, and stone tools have a practical unlimited durability).

Thats true, the idea of this discussion sparked when roland claimed that steel tools are massively overpowered early game. Originally i wanted to discuss that this is not the case but after making some calculations its true. 

The point where i got suprised is the fact that if you on day one or in the first week get your hand on an iron tool due to the stamina requierement they are technically "downgrades" because you feel like it burns up your reserves too quickly while with steel the stamina burn throught is still true but its much closer to stone variants.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Put it this way, if you CAN put it into the tool/weapon etc, then  it will do something.

(try putting customized fittings into padded armor. you can't. greyed out)

ergogrip works very well with tools.  It's a must have for me.

REALLY useful once you get to steel.

SexRex and coffee works for iron, but need the grip at steel.

If I get a Q6 stone shovel, I tend to keep that until Q5 iron and ergo grip.

I'm at lvl 40 and just starting to put points into LotL.

I max miner/motherload, 3 in cookery, and get to Q5 lvl for machineguns as priorities.

Foods next, then more in heavy armor.

Since I do the machineguns I need lotsa bullets. LOTS.

Lots of forged iron for bars and spikes required.

Cement.  Rocks. Never enough early on.

So mining gets maxed. 

Oh, always at least 1 point in sneak attacks. If you're crouched and shooting, even if they see you, it seems to count.

(just bought up all the steel I could, scrapped my lowbie mgs, and had just enough to make a Q5 M60.

Had to use the toughguy glasses for the last point in health to make it. )

We all have differing playstyles.

sorry for the long post.

 

[Crater Creator]

Before anything this post was inspired by @Roland by making me calculate just how good are steel tools are.

Ooh, those sneaky math teachers!  They're always up to something.

The OP makes a point which I think everyone has overlooked: why should there be an inflection point?

Assuming the numbers are correct, the stamina required to destroy any given number of blocks is not consistent.  If you think this number should go up over time, then why should it decrease going from iron to steel?  If you think this number should go down over time, then why should it increase going from stone to iron?

It’s not about how steep the curve is, or whether perks and whatnot can make the curve less important.  It’s about why the curve has a kink in it.  If you believe the game’s progression curve on this really is smooth in practice, then what smooths this out?  Where is the kink in the opposite direction, that gets easier but then harder?  Yes there are other curves, like stamina regeneration or loot level, but what other curve has a kink in it?  So far the only things people have brought up are things that change smoothly from early game to late game, or how things “feel”.

The elapsed time doesn't counteract this.  I did a test of my own: the time to destroy a 1000 HP iron block with different tools.  For each I did three trials, one each with a Q1, Q3, and Q5 tool, to average out the range in stats.  Results:

58.3s (stone axe)

24.5s (iron pickaxe)

16.6s (steel pickaxe)

8.49s (auger, for the sake of completeness)

I did this test in debug mode to eliminate the effects of stamina.  With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.  Stamina regeneration and max stamina increase smoothly from low to high as you gain perks and levels, respectively.  Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

 

[Gazz]

 Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

 

[RipClaw]

With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.

I hope the stamina consumption of the power tools will not be too high. What I love about working with the auger is that I only have to pause when I need to refill the tank or a zombie falls into my mine.
 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I hope the stamina consumption of the power tools will not be too high. What I love about working with the auger is that I only have to pause when I need to refill the tank or a zombie falls into my mine.
 

er? I just drill the zombie with the auger.  Makes a nice squelchy sound.

 

[DaChibii]

Ooh, those sneaky math teachers!  They're always up to something.

The OP makes a point which I think everyone has overlooked: why should there be an inflection point?

Assuming the numbers are correct, the stamina required to destroy any given number of blocks is not consistent.  If you think this number should go up over time, then why should it decrease going from iron to steel?  If you think this number should go down over time, then why should it increase going from stone to iron?

It’s not about how steep the curve is, or whether perks and whatnot can make the curve less important.  It’s about why the curve has a kink in it.  If you believe the game’s progression curve on this really is smooth in practice, then what smooths this out?  Where is the kink in the opposite direction, that gets easier but then harder?  Yes there are other curves, like stamina regeneration or loot level, but what other curve has a kink in it?  So far the only things people have brought up are things that change smoothly from early game to late game, or how things “feel”.

The elapsed time doesn't counteract this.  I did a test of my own: the time to destroy a 1000 HP iron block with different tools.  For each I did three trials, one each with a Q1, Q3, and Q5 tool, to average out the range in stats.  Results:

58.3s (stone axe)

24.5s (iron pickaxe)

16.6s (steel pickaxe)

8.49s (auger, for the sake of completeness)

I did this test in debug mode to eliminate the effects of stamina.  With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.  Stamina regeneration and max stamina increase smoothly from low to high as you gain perks and levels, respectively.  Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

Because progression isn't just one curve, but multiple aspects. The issue with the initial analysis is that it assumes that 'stamina cost per block' is the true guide for character progression. Where as actual progression has multiple vectors to it. To be honest, I sort of trust the designers on this... even though they seem to be doing a trial & error/experimental approach to the design (yes I know all designs go through multiple designs and some systems are totally different than originally conceived). I just hope there is a master spreadsheet somewhere where they at least doing some sort of intelligent balancing instead of pushing it to live and seeing what works.

From my perspective it appears that for 'building/harvesting' progression goes from 'stamina cost' to 'time to harvest' to finally 'fuel cost'. I think people are getting hung up on Steel tier being the end tier when really it's part of 'time to harvest' segment. I can sort of see if the reduction of stamina cost for steel tools is to overall increase the 'time to cost' without encroaching on mechanical tools near instantaneous harvesting. You can sort of see this balancing act with shovels where eventually all the shovels are the same due to the low block health of sand/clay (not including cement/cobblestone pallets in POIs). You almost never need a steel shovel because Iron harvests almost at the same speed but doesn't cost steel to make. In most of my playthroughs I just keep a 'Gravedigger' mod on my Pickaxe, and transfer it to a temporary Q5 stone shovel when I need to dig, since the inventory slot is more important (unless I have an auger, then it's just the all purpose tool).

 

[Roland]

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

I think it is pretty telling that the Keeper of the Spreadsheets on the TFP team came and read all the concerns and only had this to say....

 

[RipClaw]

er? I just drill the zombie with the auger.  Makes a nice squelchy sound.

I prefer the sound that my steel club makes when he cracks the skulls of the zombies 

 

[Gazz]

I think it is pretty telling that the Keeper of the Spreadsheets on the TFP team came and read all the concerns and only had this to say....

I knew where it was heading. =P

There are multiple approaches to get there so the only chance to scale this is statistically, taking all means into account. It's up to the players how strongly they push harvesting.

If you create a mod where it's game over after you harvest one block then the vanilla balancing would suck for that.

 

[Crater Creator]

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

Not only those people, but on further testing I see what you're getting at.

Player A: I only harvest a single block, e.g. to crack open a safe.

Analysis: As discussed, Player A that only harvests a single block will encounter this weird inflection point, where stamina usage is highest with T2 iron tools.

Player B: I mine until I've harvested an arbitrary number of blocks, e.g. 100 blocks.

Analysis: All the numbers just scale up, so T2 iron tools will, again, weirdly use the most stamina.

Player I mine every available block, e.g. until the vein of ore is exhausted.

Analysis: The vein will be some random fixed number of blocks, so the result is the same as Player B: T2 iron tools will weirdly use the most stamina.

Player D: I mine until I get tired (out of stamina).

Analysis: The time to exhaustion decreases smoothly across tiers: 81.7s for stone, 14.2s for iron, and 8.67s for steel.  Interestingly, Player D barely gets more yield with T3 steel tools than they do with T2 iron tools.  Mining iron ore, the iron yield was 768 for stone (tools), 277 for iron, and 250 for steel.

Player E: I mine for some set length of time, e.g. until sunrise.

Analysis: For a fixed duration, yields rise smoothly through the tiers.  In one hour of mining iron ore, iron yield is 485 for stone, 1112 for iron, 1680 for steel, and 3349 for the auger.  To test the stamina usage, I set max stamina to 200, got dehydrated to minimize regeneration, and chose a duration of 4 in-game minutes, because that's how long it took the worst tool to bottom out on stamina.  Stamina usage for this constant duration was 110 for stone (tools), 185 for iron, and 200 for steel.  So like Player D's yield, stamina usage rises smoothly, but T2 iron and T3 steel are almost the same.

Player F: I mine until I have an arbitrary amount of harvest, e.g. 1000 iron.

Analysis: With infinite stamina, Player F's elapsed time decreases smoothly with tier: 5m19s for stone, 2m29s for iron, 1m43s for steel, and 51.0s for an auger.  Without infinite stamina, the stamina usage to harvest at least 40 iron (like with Player E, we choose the max possible value before the worst tool exhausts stamina) decreases smoothly with tier: 179 for stone, 143 for iron, and 130 for steel.

Player G: I mine until my tool breaks.

Analysis: I didn't have the patience to actually run an experiment.  But the times will increase smoothly with tier since higher tiers have more durability, as will the yields.  These effects probably dominate any potential inflection point in the stamina usage.

Conclusion: There are multiple use cases (A, B, and C) with a weird inflection point where T2 iron tools use the most stamina.  There are other use cases (D and E) where T2 iron tools and T3 steel tools have nearly identical results by some measure, meaning that T3 may be significantly superior by some measures, but not every measure.  But the curves in these cases are still technically smooth, as are the curves in the other use cases studied.

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

 

[Solomon]

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

I gotta thank you for the further testing, i usually dont have the time to do such thing thanks to work and family so in most cases i only have numbers to work with.

 

[Danidas]

Here is the real question for this, How good of a stat roll did you get on each of your tools as stats for T2 Iron, T3 Steel, and T4 Auger are random? Note that T1 Stone always have the same stats but as mentioned they can vary wildly for anything beyond the stone age. As a result it is possible to get a Iron tool with better stats then a Steel one or even a lower quality tool having better stats then one of a higher quality all mattering on where the stat rolls land and how far the over lap in stat ranges is.

 

[meganoth]

Not only those people, but on further testing I see what you're getting at.

Player A: I only harvest a single block, e.g. to crack open a safe.

Analysis: As discussed, Player A that only harvests a single block will encounter this weird inflection point, where stamina usage is highest with T2 iron tools.

Player B: I mine until I've harvested an arbitrary number of blocks, e.g. 100 blocks.

Analysis: All the numbers just scale up, so T2 iron tools will, again, weirdly use the most stamina.

Player I mine every available block, e.g. until the vein of ore is exhausted.

Analysis: The vein will be some random fixed number of blocks, so the result is the same as Player B: T2 iron tools will weirdly use the most stamina.

Player D: I mine until I get tired (out of stamina).

Analysis: The time to exhaustion decreases smoothly across tiers: 81.7s for stone, 14.2s for iron, and 8.67s for steel.  Interestingly, Player D barely gets more yield with T3 steel tools than they do with T2 iron tools.  Mining iron ore, the iron yield was 768 for stone (tools), 277 for iron, and 250 for steel.

Player E: I mine for some set length of time, e.g. until sunrise.

Analysis: For a fixed duration, yields rise smoothly through the tiers.  In one hour of mining iron ore, iron yield is 485 for stone, 1112 for iron, 1680 for steel, and 3349 for the auger.  To test the stamina usage, I set max stamina to 200, got dehydrated to minimize regeneration, and chose a duration of 4 in-game minutes, because that's how long it took the worst tool to bottom out on stamina.  Stamina usage for this constant duration was 110 for stone (tools), 185 for iron, and 200 for steel.  So like Player D's yield, stamina usage rises smoothly, but T2 iron and T3 steel are almost the same.

Player F: I mine until I have an arbitrary amount of harvest, e.g. 1000 iron.

Analysis: With infinite stamina, Player F's elapsed time decreases smoothly with tier: 5m19s for stone, 2m29s for iron, 1m43s for steel, and 51.0s for an auger.  Without infinite stamina, the stamina usage to harvest at least 40 iron (like with Player E, we choose the max possible value before the worst tool exhausts stamina) decreases smoothly with tier: 179 for stone, 143 for iron, and 130 for steel.

Player G: I mine until my tool breaks.

Analysis: I didn't have the patience to actually run an experiment.  But the times will increase smoothly with tier since higher tiers have more durability, as will the yields.  These effects probably dominate any potential inflection point in the stamina usage.

Conclusion: There are multiple use cases (A, B, and C) with a weird inflection point where T2 iron tools use the most stamina.  There are other use cases (D and E) where T2 iron tools and T3 steel tools have nearly identical results by some measure, meaning that T3 may be significantly superior by some measures, but not every measure.  But the curves in these cases are still technically smooth, as are the curves in the other use cases studied.

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

Great empirical study.

Nitpick: I don't think a rise from 1112 to 1680 (in case E) can be called "almost the same". While it isn't over 100% more like in the other steps it is 45% more, a factor for which a perk point would kill to get it.

It also should be said that as the tiers are designed for different game stages and specialisations o the player and your raw data has to be matched with the intended use cases.

For this we can roughly classify players into the groups STR-players and non-STR-players. For both of these groups you would have to analyze their probable situation and likely perk-distribution to find the real decisions players would be making in regard to the tool they are using.

For example A STR-player would likely have SexRex at 2 or 3 in mid game simply because their melee weapon also needs a lower stamina consumption. Add to this that coffee should be available in quantities in mid game this player will switch to iron pickaxe even though his stamina consumption would be higher. Empirical evidence in my group at least: Our miner took up iron pickaxe in mid game, never mind the higher stamina usage. Naturally this depends on the food situation in mid game as well.

What complicates the situation a little is that players tend to value a specific metric very high: How long they can dig continually with their stamina pool and regeneration. After early game for most players total stamina usage is a non-issue.

 

[Crater Creator]

Here is the real question for this, How good of a stat roll did you get on each of your tools as stats for T2 Iron, T3 Steel, and T4 Auger are random? Note that T1 Stone always have the same stats but as mentioned they can vary wildly for anything beyond the stone age. As a result it is possible to get a Iron tool with better stats then a Steel one or even a lower quality tool having better stats then one of a higher quality all mattering on where the stat rolls land and how far the over lap in stat ranges is.

That's why for all tests I took the average of three tools, at quality levels 1, 3, and 5.  Here are the numbers.


Tool


Block Damage


Stamina Cost


Attacks/Min


Stone Axe Q1


21/23*


8


105


Stone Axe Q3


25


8


105


Stone Axe Q5


30


8


105


Stone Axe Avg


26


8


105


Iron Pickaxe Q1


36


19


64


Iron Pickaxe Q3


46


17


66


Iron Pickaxe Q5


48


18


62


Iron Pickaxe Avg


43


18


64


Steel Pickaxe Q1


64


27


54


Steel Pickaxe Q3


83


25


56


Steel Pickaxe Q5


83


26


52


Steel Pickaxe Avg


77


26


54


Auger Q1


21


0


313


Auger Q3


27


0


293


Auger Q5


27


0


303


Auger Avg


25


0


303

*I put a diamond-tipped mod on the Q1 stone axe for some tests, so that I wouldn't have to deal with the time to repair it in longer trials.

 

[Crater Creator]

Great empirical study.

Thanks!

Nitpick: I don't think a rise from 1112 to 1680 (in case E) can be called "almost the same". While it isn't over 100% more like in the other steps it is 45% more, a factor for which a perk point would kill to get it.

In case E, I'm saying stamina usage is almost the same: 185 for iron versus 200 for steel.  Yield does rises dramatically.

It also should be said that as the tiers are designed for different game stages and specialisations o the player and your raw data has to be matched with the intended use cases.

For this we can roughly classify players into the groups STR-players and non-STR-players. For both of these groups you would have to analyze their probable situation and likely perk-distribution to find the real decisions players would be making in regard to the tool they are using.

For example A STR-player would likely have SexRex at 2 or 3 in mid game simply because their melee weapon also needs a lower stamina consumption. Add to this that coffee should be available in quantities in mid game this player will switch to iron pickaxe even though his stamina consumption would be higher. Empirical evidence in my group at least: Our miner took up iron pickaxe in mid game, never mind the higher stamina usage. Naturally this depends on the food situation in mid game as well.

What complicates the situation a little is that players tend to value a specific metric very high: How long they can dig continually with their stamina pool and regeneration. After early game for most players total stamina usage is a non-issue.

The thing is, game stage and perk specialization/distribution have across-the-board effects.  Sexual Tyrannosaurus for instance affects stamina usage for all tools equally, no matter the tier.  Therefore, all it does is uniformly scale the curve.  It can't get a kink out of the curve.

I do admit that stamina regeneration sets a threshold under which you don't care anymore.  If you regenerate (made up numbers) 1000 stamina a minute, then you don't care whether your tool uses 100 or 200 or anything up to 1000 stamina per minute.

I think I covered the major ways people decide when they're done mining.  You say players highly value the time to exhaustion, which suggests to me that you're probably a Player D.  I'm much more of a Player C.  I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.  I can't always mine out every ore vein, because that can take weeks, but in principle my mine isn't finished until there's nothing but stone left.  If I'm harvesting sand in the desert I have no choice but to choose some other milestone, since getting all the sand is impossible, but this is the exception to the rule.

If I had to guess, Gazz, who actually sets these numbers, probably looks at this like Player F, whose goal is to harvest a certain amount of material.  But I still say that ideally the game would use numbers like Solomon proposes, because then it would be T1<T2<T3 for all use cases/playstyles.

 

[meganoth]

Thanks!

In case E, I'm saying stamina usage is almost the same: 185 for iron versus 200 for steel.  Yield does rises dramatically.

The thing is, game stage and perk specialization/distribution have across-the-board effects.  Sexual Tyrannosaurus for instance affects stamina usage for all tools equally, no matter the tier.  Therefore, all it does is uniformly scale the curve.  It can't get a kink out of the curve.

No, it doesn't get the kink out of the curve, but it changes how valuable stamina is at any point in time. It changes the relative importance in comparison to other metrics. In very early game total stamina use is the most important metric and should you get an iron axe it might even make a miner think twice before using it. As soon as your food problem is less stringent (with a prolific hunter in the group that can be very early, a farm always takes some time), absolute stamina use gets nearly irrelevant and only the relative speed of depletion and regeneration with a tool may still be important.

I do admit that stamina regeneration sets a threshold under which you don't care anymore.  If you regenerate (made up numbers) 1000 stamina a minute, then you don't care whether your tool uses 100 or 200 or anything up to 1000 stamina per minute.

I think I covered the major ways people decide when they're done mining.  You say players highly value the time to exhaustion, which suggests to me that you're probably a Player D.  I'm much more of a Player C.  I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.  I can't always mine out every ore vein, because that can take weeks, but in principle my mine isn't finished until there's nothing but stone left.  If I'm harvesting sand in the desert I have no choice but to choose some other milestone, since getting all the sand is impossible, but this is the exception to the rule.

I wasn't talking about myself. But I discussed this in the forum with quite a few players. Whenever the topic was stamina use of tools the critique was always about the player being out of stamina and then having to stop and regain stamina. For at least two players it was because it "broke the flow" of action, others were fearing the pause would get them much less yield than with a stone axe over time but mostly they just assumed without really evaluating it. Whether there is a "flow" as well as the yield in the long run depends exclusively on stamina regen and therefore on sexrex and whether he uses drinks like coffee while mining.

This is also a problem of your player F experiment. Assuming infinite stamina gives the correct values when stamina regen exceeds stamina use, but often this is not the case and then stamina regen can't be ignored.

I'm definitely Player E. If I decide to mine I usually just mine until daybreak. I don't mind the regen breaks.

If I had to guess, Gazz, who actually sets these numbers, probably looks at this like Player F, whose goal is to harvest a certain amount of material.  But I still say that ideally the game would use numbers like Solomon proposes, because then it would be T1<T2<T3 for all use cases/playstyles.

I can imagine two reasons:

1) Food consumption should increase in mid game while your farm yield rises too. I can't imagine this being of much importance though

2) It looks to me like the stone axe is made to be usable at sexrex 0, iron pickaxe is supposed to be best at sexrex 1-2 when food is no problem anymore (i.e. mid- and end-game for all non-strength players) and steel pickaxe is best at sexrex 3-4 and therefore nearly an exclusive to miners (mid- and end-game).

 

[Roland]

 I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.

We should play together sometime. I'll take a couple of chops out of 100 different trees to give you a fun quest.

and therefore nearly an exclusive to miners (mid- and end-game).

THIS is where the problem lies. In a traditional RPG, the Steel Pickaxe would not be able to be equiped if you were not of the class: Miner. This RPG allows anything to be used whether it is good for your skillset or not and people will use whateve they can use whether it is their best option or not.

 

[Kalen]

THIS is where the problem lies. In a traditional RPG, the Steel Pickaxe would not be able to be equiped if you were not of the class: Miner. This RPG allows anything to be used whether it is good for your skillset or not and people will use whateve they can use whether it is their best option or not.

I get what you're saying.... but I still feel that a higher tier item should, in all circumstances, be better than a lower tier item.   Anything else is counter intuitive.

 

[stample]

I get what you're saying.... but I still feel that a higher tier item should, in all circumstances, be better than a lower tier item.   Anything else is counter intuitive.

Yeah, this sums up my feelings.  If I have to spend perk points to make the Iron better than Stone... then Iron isn't better than Stone.  The perk is.  Or the synergy is.

If the goal was to make any main attribute a viable playstyle, but I need to Perk up enough Str/SexRex to make Iron tools usable, my Int/Agi build is going to suffer greatly.  I should be able to pick up an Iron tool and feel that its definitely better then the Stone one, without feeling there is a minimum Perk investment to make it viable to me.  After all, I still need to do some mining to make a base, and I still need to be able to crack open safes.  Perking Strength should make that even better, but shouldn't feel absolutely necessary.

The whole argument that stamina regen isn't an issue mid- to late-game is predicated around the fact that EVERYBODY DOES IT, but that's because everyone feels its NECESSARY.  I resent that I need SexRex on an Agi character.  I have Flurry of Blows to recover stamina on a kill, but I can't "kill" a safe.

Let me put this another way.  I've leveled up every attribute as a main.  I've played games where I got to 150+ without every putting a single point in Perception, or Intellect, or Stamina, or even Agi (which hurts when I forget I don't have Parkour).  I've never gotten to even 50+ without putting a point in Strength, because it feels that necessary.