PC Steel unlocks too late / in the wrong order

[Hek Harris]

Try "run" instead of the default "sprint" for feral zombies. It changes a lot of thing (essentially in close fights so you don't have to waste ammo).

Wolfy, my first answer was for the OP. My second, my bad, I thought it was the OP responding so I didn't understand. Didn't see you were gone on another subject (learning by doing).

 

[HungryZombie]

I've seen someone from Fun Pimps post on the forums they are looking at how to balance the zombie regen. I think they know it's an issue.

 

[Morloc]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.

If you're playing on "Insane" and you're not dying, you're lying, you're modding, you're exploiting, you may be MP, or you're not even touching the game. Get used to dying. I rarely died in A16 on Insane and I almost always melee'd. Now I play on default+1 and die often. Sometimes it's a tactical error "I'll back off into this.....bathroom ", sometimes it's a strategic mistake (CR with death debuff at night anyone? ...and sometimes it's good old bad luck. "Crap...is that a bea....".

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

-Morloc

 

[CoolJ]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to not telling other people what they should be accustomed too. If you are dying on default settings, then you really have no business telling other people how to play the game.

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

Saying this, is the exact same as saying that you don't think people should get the perks from the points they spend. So whatever perks you like, you can spend the points, but they wont work until level 70.

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

-Morloc

>CoolJ - again, no ad hominem please! - OzHawkeye<

 

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I have played more now and I do agree, some materials seem to be out of order. For example, I can learn the bicycle before the forge. Bear in mind that this is an alpha and this stuff will likely be tweaked and fixed soon enough. I can deal with it while I wait for The Pimps to do their thing. Very happy with A17 despite the issues associated with a game in alpha and EA. You guys should have seen the WoW alpha...

 

[WolfyBlah]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.
If you're playing on "Insane" and you're not dying, you're lying, you're modding, you're exploiting, you may be MP, or you're not even touching the game. Get used to dying. I rarely died in A16 on Insane and I almost always melee'd. Now I play on default+1 and die often. Sometimes it's a tactical error "I'll back off into this.....bathroom ", sometimes it's a strategic mistake (CR with death debuff at night anyone? ...and sometimes it's good old bad luck. "Crap...is that a bea....".

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

-Morloc

Dark souls never kills you unfairly, theres always a way to see an ambush ahead of time if you slow down and look (or use common sense).

-considered a difficult game

-dosent kill the player just because.

The reason for that is its terrible design to kill the player because they got unlucky.

Players should be able to survive, the entire point of the 'survival aspects' is to stay alive right?

So no, people shouldnt 'get used to dieing'

Iv played higher difficulty settings through all the alphas and they have all ammounted to more zombie HP or more recently higher chance of bull♥♥♥♥ enemies spawning. Neither is a good scale for difficulty to be honest, someone playing on insane is doing the exact same as someone on scavanger, the only difference is more enemy hp and more ferals/irradiated.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

Yup, baseless defense is the best! kill 'em in the streets! :smile-new:

I disagree here.

For MP, the 1 (active) CB limit kills CB-spam griefing more than solid gameplay. (Why do you need to claim the whole map?)

I would say the CB limit "negatively" affects the single player experience moreso than the MP experience.

My answer to the "issues" that would arise from it, however, is to be more strategic in how you build.

You must not have been raided by very good players then or dealt with very good players in general, let me break it down why you're wrong.

You can only be "So" strategic in how you build. You won't thwart determined raiders, trust me.

I have played on many ,many servers, many of the most popular ones with some of the most hardcore of players and I've learned much in my 5000 hours of playing this game (on and off for 5 years now )

1. Spam griefing by spamming LCB is a very rare thing, and even if so, you can always break the land claim blocks, If you can't break them, you can usually dig them out very quickly, most players that do LCB griefing just toss them out over the ground unprotected; also do you know how much resource you need to create enough LCB to grief someone? Several, and you're practically handing those over for free.

(Its easier just to destroy the base)

2.Many Admin will ban or step in after excessive griefing takes place. You're automatically protected.

3. You absolutely need larger bases to deal with groups of raiders, the rule of thumb is your base must be strong enough to withstand at least 3-4 raiders or more for at least 10 hours to be a very good base design, and if your base incorporates traps that kill them and prevent them from getting their bags back, your base is legendary.

You need more space to do that, you need to separate all your loot into separate areas in the base, you need to protect them behind several vault doors and the same thing goes for your forges, work bench, chem station, ect. If not they will either break them, or take all the resources out of them while continuing to raid.

4. Small bases get collapsed. The range that the LCB give you is definitely within the limit of players just destroying your base instead of raiding it. Many do it to prove a point, many do it in spite, and some do it for the lulls.

You need space to hide loot, if you only have this 1 land claim block you're essentially limited to a few rooms full of nothing but vault doors, that makes living in the base not very fun if you have other players living there with you.

If you're limited in space you don't have the necessary coverage to deter/prevent yourself from being raided clean.

Whats harder, a base with many hallways, mazes, vault doors and loot separated on many different levels, or a base that is just 1 room and everything is right there?

 

[Morloc]

Saying this, is the exact same as saying that you don't think people should get the perks from the points they spend.

Please take a moment to look up what "exact same" means, then re-evaluate your response. Perhaps you meant to say "almost the same" or "virtually the same", which would still be hyperbole, but could still subjectively be true.

Try and see the glass as "half full". If you buy the motorcycle perk you can build a motorcycle. Points spent, perk acquired...ability gained. TFP could make this perk harder to gain than steel, but I really like the idea of being able to build it sooner if I'm fortunate/determined enough to save up the steel.

I'd like to see more of this sort of thing actually...less linear perks FTW! :smile-new:

-Morloc

 

[Morloc]

The reason for that is its terrible design to kill the player because they got unlucky.
Players should be able to survive, the entire point of the 'survival aspects' is to stay alive right?

So no, people shouldnt 'get used to dieing'

Rimworld is a survival game too, but in many ways you're not expected to survive....certainly not everyone. This aspect makes pulling off a "win" very satisfying. It might be true that luck in a game being a factor in your survival might not be the very best design, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as "terrible" either. With all the changes in A17, the traditional "default" settings are probably not an analogue to what we used to use. I believe Roland implied something to that effect when he'd wished that they had dropped the difficulty setting a notch.

Iv played higher difficulty settings through all the alphas and they have all ammounted to more zombie HP or more recently higher chance of bull♥♥♥♥ enemies spawning. Neither is a good scale for difficulty to be honest, someone playing on insane is doing the exact same as someone on scavanger, the only difference is more enemy hp and more ferals/irradiated.

You forgot what's probably the biggest difference...the Zs hit harder. Very different game because of that. Heavy-fisted zombies force you to play more carefully. You need to consider mobility vs. mitigation. Those one or two hits you might absorb fighting some ferals become deadly. You end up needing to decide whether you'll adjust your playstyle accordingly, or take the risk of racking up deaths. It's not called 7D2Survive though, so it's all still fun The significant increase in feral encounters is what daunts me the most.

I'm curious...what would be a proper scaling of difficulty for you? If not more bullet-spongy zombies, or more specialized zombies, are you talking about the survival aspects being made tougher, or.........?

-Morloc

 

[MrMobius]

I feel like most of the people responding to this thread are missing the point the OP was making:

That the order in which steel smithing, and steel related perks unlock aren't quite right:

Motorcycles require a non trivial amount of steel, but unlock before steel smithing.

Gun smithing perks unlock before steel smithing, and also require non trivial amounts of steel.

The perks to allow crafting of tier 2/3 mods (many of which require steel) are also unlocked before steel smithing.

Neither the OP, nor I, are complaining about when steel unlocks, just questioning the design of making steel requiring perks available prior to actually unlocking steel.

Some have said that you can just buy the steel from traders: Whilst this is true, Getting enough steel to be meaningful from traders requires that

A: You have found enough traders to have a meaningful amount available for purchase.

B: You have enough dukes to buy it.

There is an opportunity cost associated with this: You have to sell things in order to gain the dukes for that. This requires selling stuff you would otherwise be using. Bear in mind that crafting weapons/tools for selling is limited to at best 3x per trader, for each item.

Running around gathering stuff like mechanical parts can be done, but they are used to craft other useful things too, and you would be spending a non trivial amount of time doing it, which could be spent looting or exploring. So again, there is an opportunity cost.

Others have said that once steel is available for crafting it becomes abundant.

This is partially true, but also irrelevant to the point. The point is that perks which require steel should only be unlocked *after* steel is readily available.

I appreciate based on earlier comments about traders, that you could take a short cut by buying steel, and that is a somewhat valid argument, but if you want to make a full set of weapons (pistol, rifle and shotgun) and motorcycles for a party, that is not reasonably achievable, given that the buy price for most loot is pretty poor, even with better barter at 4/5, and that non stacking items (often the most valuable items) are limited to 3x sold to each trader, depending on what they already have in stock. Let's also take into account that traders almost never buy pistols, which are by far the most common weapon drop, compared to rifles and shotguns.

When steel should be unlocked itself in a separate, balancing question, that was not being asked by the OP.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Rimworld is a survival game too, but in many ways you're not expected to survive....certainly not everyone. This aspect makes pulling off a "win" very satisfying. It might be true that luck in a game being a factor in your survival might not be the very best design, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as "terrible" either. With all the changes in A17, the traditional "default" settings are probably not an analogue to what we used to use. I believe Roland implied something to that effect when he'd wished that they had dropped the difficulty setting a notch.


You forgot what's probably the biggest difference...the Zs hit harder. Very different game because of that. Heavy-fisted zombies force you to play more carefully. You need to consider mobility vs. mitigation. Those one or two hits you might absorb fighting some ferals become deadly. You end up needing to decide whether you'll adjust your playstyle accordingly, or take the risk of racking up deaths. It's not called 7D2Survive though, so it's all still fun The significant increase in feral encounters is what daunts me the most.

I'm curious...what would be a proper scaling of difficulty for you? If not more bullet-spongy zombies, or more specialized zombies, are you talking about the survival aspects being made tougher, or.........?

-Morloc

I didnt mention zombies dealing more damage intentionally, because that IS a good way to increase difficulty.

Increased spawns (volume, not composition) is also a good way to increase the difficulty.

As to the composition of enemies: im all for unquie/special enemies, probably my favourite game of all time is killing floor (and in someways killing floor 2) so im all about fighting cool and unquie enemies.

Irradiated: enemies regenerating HP just blows as a way to increase the difficulty.

If irradiated meant: will explode upon death or will always infect/bleed with every hit... better.

Ferals: this is a more of a sucky difficulty factor because of the way its implemented.

Increasing the zombies movement speed can be a good way to increase difficulty but it needs to be done in a way thats not 'unlucky, all the Zs we spawned in this room will be sprinters'.

Overall difficulty setting wether zombies: walk, mostly walk but sometimes run, 50/50, mostly run, always run i would be in support of.

To take a nod to how KF handles move speed: its balanced in a way that *some* things cannot be outrun, specificly a raging scrake(chainsaw enemy) or fleshpound (walking pile of muscle and metal and rage)

These are more mini bosses, maybe 1-4 of each will spawn in a wave, the 'difficulty' comes from managing these enemies while not being overwhelmed by weaker trash mobs.

Would highly advice people to go give the killing floor games a try, see *how difficult* it is to not die when 2 raging FPs, a husk and a siren pop around the corner.

 

[CoolJ]

Please take a moment to look up what "exact same" means, then re-evaluate your response. Perhaps you meant to say "almost the same" or "virtually the same", which would still be hyperbole, but could still subjectively be true.
Try and see the glass as "half full". If you buy the motorcycle perk you can build a motorcycle. Points spent, perk acquired...ability gained. TFP could make this perk harder to gain than steel, but I really like the idea of being able to build it sooner if I'm fortunate/determined enough to save up the steel.

I'd like to see more of this sort of thing actually...less linear perks FTW! :smile-new:

-Morloc

So I should just lie to myself and pretend that I can make a motorcycle when I really can't? There is no positive side to a perk point spent and the perk not working. None at all. Do you even understand how absurd that sounds?

 

[OnlyMeiya]

So I should just lie to myself and pretend that I can make a motorcycle when I really can't? There is no positive side to a perk point spent and the perk not working. None at all. Do you even understand how absurd that sounds?

A motorcycle only costs 36 Steel bars, that is very very easily doable if you know where to farm it and get some in work crates/trader, ect.

Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes, you don't.

I'm over level 100 and still haven't found a tool and die set, would it be nice to have? Yep, do I need it? Nope. Do I want it? Yes. (yes im aware that certain loot doesn't appear till you have 4/5 or 5/5 Lucky looter.) (I'm at 4/5 and I toss on lucky goggles for opening crates and stuff )

 

[skullpoker]

If you add a <!-- and a --> at the right points in progression.xml, suddenly there are no more level gates...

#levelgate

 

[Morloc]

There is no positive side to a perk point spent and the perk not working. None at all.

I agree 100%.

I'm aware of only one perk which isn't working however, and it's disabled so you cannot purchase it (I'm not sure about the armor perks).

I do KNOW you can build a motorcycle if you buy the perk though. So as we say in everywhere but your brain...you're wrong. If you're serious and this really isn't working for you, I suggest you try to verify your files through Steam and submit a bug report if the behavior continues.

In A16 you could make seeds immediately...you couldn't really plant them until you got a hoe though. If you did need to buy a perk for making seeds before you had a forge and iron, would you buy it?...you might.....if you had found a hoe.

To recap...

If you can't get the steel to build a motorcycle, or don't care to focus on this you would....

A) Buy the Motorcycle perk!

B) Wait on buying the Motorcycle perk!

If you have collected 45 steel and your INT is high enough, you might....

A) Buy the Motorcycle perk!

B) Wait on buying the Motorcycle perk!

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything.

Have a nice day. :smile-new:

-Morloc

- - - Updated - - -

If you add a <!-- and a --> at the right points in progression.xml, suddenly there are no more level gates...
#levelgate

ROFL!

/WIN!

-Morloc

 

[CoolJ]

A motorcycle only costs 36 Steel bars, that is very very easily doable if you know where to farm it and get some in work crates/trader, ect.
Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes, you don't.

I'm over level 100 and still haven't found a tool and die set, would it be nice to have? Yep, do I need it? Nope. Do I want it? Yes. (yes im aware that certain loot doesn't appear till you have 4/5 or 5/5 Lucky looter.) (I'm at 4/5 and I toss on lucky goggles for opening crates and stuff )

I don't need a motorcycle. I have a minibike. What I need is 50 steel for a shotgun. I only want a motorcycle. Even if I had 36 steel I wouldn't use it for that. Lets not forget steel arrow heads that I should have been able to make since I unlocked special bolts and arrows 48 levels ago. Like I said. There is no defending this. The recipes for these items need to change or steel needs to be made earlier. These are just wasted perk points. No other perk in the game is gated like this.

I swear to god if the perks for the perception and strength tree's didn't actually work until level 70, you people would be foaming at the mouth about it. The very second it happens to be something that you either haven't played far enough into the game to need, or your play style doesn't require, then people who mention how broken it is just need to shut up.

For the record, I always hated ammo being gated by the tool and die set. Which for some reason you need to also make steel arrow heads. Thank god the trader actually did have one of those. Good luck buying it though. He want's about 4000 dukes. I feel like there was a reason that the T&D set was not required to make arrow heads and bullets before. It is because we hated it. Seriously, crap like this wasn't even fun when finding it was the only gate.

 

[Hek Harris]

But... if you need so much steel, why don't you build a forge and craft some ?


sorry, just wanted to know how angrier you can become...

 

[CoolJ]

I agree 100%.
I'm aware of only one perk which isn't working however, and it's disabled so you cannot purchase it (I'm not sure about the armor perks).

I do KNOW you can build a motorcycle if you buy the perk though. So as we say in everywhere but your brain...you're wrong. If you're serious and this really isn't working for you, I suggest you try to verify your files through Steam and submit a bug report if the behavior continues.

In A16 you could make seeds immediately...you couldn't really plant them until you got a hoe though. If you did need to buy a perk for making seeds before you had a forge and iron, would you buy it?...you might.....if you had found a hoe.

To recap...

If you can't get the steel to build a motorcycle, or don't care to focus on this you would....

A) Buy the Motorcycle perk!

B) Wait on buying the Motorcycle perk!

If you have collected 45 steel and your INT is high enough, you might....

A) Buy the Motorcycle perk!

B) Wait on buying the Motorcycle perk!

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything.

Have a nice day. :smile-new:

-Morloc

To recap. You are avoiding the facts all together and saying the same thing that does not matter at all. The best part about it is you think it makes you look smart. The fact is. There is no practicable way to get the steel required to make things I unlocked 48 levels ago. Much less things that unlocked along all of those 48 levels.

You also don't seem to understand how perk points work. If you do not spend a perk to unlock these items when they are available, and you spend it on something else. NEWS FLASH! You still need it! So no there is no choice to be made. They expect you to be able to craft these items before level 70 or they would not have them unlock at way earlier levels.

It is no argument that you personally don't require it, and nobody gives a damn that you don't. It is a conceptually flawed argument.

I will say though, I am eager to read whatever nonsense you post next.

 

[BobTheBard]

I see the steel gate as less of a gate and more of a bottleneck in the perk system. My issue with the gating isn't that some steel recipes are obtained before steel itself. That's fine. The issue I have is that most of them are obtained before steel. From a gameplay perspective it's hard to get excited about taking a perk and thinking 'Man, this perk is going to be great when I finally get enough resources to use it in 25 levels.' But if you don't take it earlier, which you shouldn't, you then wind up with about 10-12 perks you want the second you hit 70 so you wind up not picking anything for 15 levels to save up points.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

I don't need a motorcycle. I have a minibike. What I need is 50 steel for a shotgun. I only want a motorcycle. Even if I had 36 steel I wouldn't use it for that. Lets not forget steel arrow heads that I should have been able to make since I unlocked special bolts and arrows 48 levels ago. Like I said. There is no defending this. The recipes for these items need to change or steel needs to be made earlier. These are just wasted perk points. No other perk in the game is gated like this.

Why do you need 50 steel for a shotgun? (Sorry I'm legit asking, I do not use shotguns ever)

Iron arrows are very nice and easy to make, they've been carrying me far into the early 100's.

You know what else are wasted perk points that early?

I'll speak from a day 1-14 point of view.

Things like Better Barter, daring adventurer, charismatic nature (For obvious reasons at an early level and charismatic nature is only for multiplayer )

Living off the land (Since you can't make iron tools yet )

Olympian swimmer (very little reason to go through water and I've noticed a huge decrease in large lakes)

Salvage Operations (You aren't even at the phase where wrenching parts is necessary ) [maybe]

The point i'm trying to make is there are several perks you won't put points into if you use common sense depending on your game stage.

So you're saying you want a motorcycle , but wouldn't craft one if you had the resources? I don't understand the logic with this one.

I swear to god if the perks for the perception and strength tree's didn't actually work until level 70, you people would be foaming at the mouth about it. The very second it happens to be something that you either haven't played far enough into the game to need, or your play style doesn't require, then people who mention how broken it is just need to shut up.

There is a large difference between what those perks do, and what they aim to achieve, you're trying to compare a dichotomy of perks. It just doesn't work that way.

Those are necessary to help survival, the other is a luxury, if you get lucky you can spend perk points accordingly.

For the record, I always hated ammo being gated by the tool and die set. Which for some reason you need to also make steel arrow heads. Thank god the trader actually did have one of those. Good luck buying it though. He want's about 4000 dukes. I feel like there was a reason that they T&D set was not required to make arrow heads and bullets before. It is because we hated it. Seriously, crap like this wasn't even fun when finding it was the only gate.

I do kind of hate that also because it seems that you might not find one till your lucky looter is at 5/5 which is pretty dumb, I haven't found one yet and i'm level 120. (with 4/5 )

You don't need to make steel arrow heads, you can survive off iron ones for a while. I'm still using them and since my perception level is high (8/10) I 1-shot standard zeds and can kill radiated one with compound bow (modded) and the sledge hammer (Also modded)

The damage is nice, but you definitely don't need it absolutely, but I do think its dumb to require tool and die + steel perk to make steel arrow heads.