PC Steam reviews - I kinda figured

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. If I wanted to be great with a shotgun, then I had to, naturally enough, start using my shotgun. Now, I'm a master shotgunner because I clicked on a perk point for it.
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You talked about disadvantages of lbd and said there is only one downside. I was listing another one. It might be unimportant to you, it probably isn't unimportant to some others.

And there are choices involved. There is the choice how much you concentrate on getting good at shotgun or "waste" points on utility perks? Are you the radical starving artist type who prefers shotty master over everything else or the pragmatic shotgunner who looks after his well-being (food, temperature, ability to carry lots of stuff...) too? Do you invest in minimum melee skills for the moments when your ammo runs out?

Even if it is only about shotgunner, your choice is whether you want more headshot damage with your shotty or faster reload or general damage. Do you want more damage out of stealth or is that masterly or not. And there is the choice of going to level a perk first to 3 or 4 or 5 or distributing the points to get a little headshot,faster reload. Do you want to be really good at other weapons too (beside master shotty) or do you concentrate on shotty exclusively.

 
You talked about disadvantages of lbd and said there is only one downside. I was listing another one. It might be unimportant to you, it probably isn't unimportant to some others.
And there are choices involved. There is the choice how much you concentrate on getting good at shotgun or "waste" points on utility perks? Are you the radical starving artist type who prefers shotty master over everything else or the pragmatic shotgunner who looks after his well-being (food, temperature, ability to carry lots of stuff...) too? Do you invest in minimum melee skills for the moments when your ammo runs out?

Even if it is only about shotgunner, your choice is whether you want more headshot damage with your shotty or faster reload or general damage. Do you want more damage out of stealth or is that masterly or not. And there is the choice of going to level a perk first to 3 or 4 or 5 or distributing the points to get a little headshot,faster reload. Do you want to be really good at other weapons too (beside master shotty) or do you concentrate on shotty exclusively.
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Well, I should be clear, I am now and always, stating my own preferences. I speak only for myself, and make no assumptions about whether anyone else agrees with me.

Yes, both systems involve a choice, as I already mentioned, a choice to either spend a perk point, or to use the item (whatever it is, the shotgun was only an example) to level up my skill in that item.

So, it then moves on to immersion. Which is more immersive? Click on a perk point, or using the item to get better at it? I think "lbd" wins on that score almost in-arguably.

However, the final analysis, in any game, must always be, is it fun?

For me, "lbd" is more "fun" than clicking on a perk point. For others, it may well be more fun to click the perk point, than to go out into the world and use the item.

I make no bones about that. I'm just stating my own personal preference.

 
Well that was the beauty of A16.4. It had both. It had learn by doing, so with each bag of garbage you opened, you were directly upping your scavenge skill, but you were also earning XP that could be directly put into a skill that you didn't want to develop naturally, say archery or whatever.
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Yea. They went from making basically everyone happy, by giving you choices where to spend stuff, but also save them by doing them to "well just pretend you got better at something and put ina skillpoint". This isn't D&D. I don't want to pretend to get better at something because of magic. I want to see why I got better at it and feel rewarded.

And those who wanted to mine efficiently without mining unefficiently could still always put points into it.

- - - Updated - - -

And to get back on point:

Why are there so many players when so many dislike it?

I found (yes really found didn't create it) a meme just today:

https://bit.ly/2SycQ8G

 
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I'm not sure that spending hours hitting on inert pixels is "harder" ^^.
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You want to get better at things without doing them. That's basically the definition of easier (without difficulty or effort).

 
You want to get better at things without doing them. That's basically the definition of easier (without difficulty or effort).
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"Effort" in a video game. You're funny.

You really want me to get bored, maybe you want to feel less lonely.

And no, I want nothing : I'm just enjoying the actual alpha. You don't. I play RP games since a long time, those mechanics are usual : follow quests, kill mobs, use skill points to upgrade your avatar. TFP didn't re-invent the wheel.

But whatever, I'm playing and having a good time. You complain and seem very unhappy. Hope you'll get what you want : I'll play with the settings you want without whining. Adaptability is the word.

 
I think with some more work done to it the new system can work good. As it is right now for me it is ok but that is about it. I don't hate it but don't love it as it is right now. Some more work though could turn out pretty good if done right.

I agree with others about the old system. It had issues but those few issues just like with the new system could of been worked out to have it work better.

As of now though they done spent this much time on the new system so I would prefer they stick to it and get it balanced out more do some more changes to it to have it feel more right.

 
Well that was the beauty of A16.4. It had both. It had learn by doing, so with each bag of garbage you opened, you were directly upping your scavenge skill, but you were also earning XP that could be directly put into a skill that you didn't want to develop naturally, say archery or whatever.
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That system was weird IMO, since it was just a mix of unrelated systems.

I'm not talking about going back to A16.4, they should find a new way that fits both LBD and the old-way RPG leveling system, something that fits well with the new Attributes and skills. What it should be I don't know, I just feel it should be something new...

 
"Effort" in a video game. You're funny. You really want me to get bored, maybe you want to feel less lonely.

And no, I want nothing : I'm just enjoying the actual alpha. You don't. I play RP games since a long time, those mechanics are usual : follow quests, kill mobs, use skill points to upgrade your avatar. TFP didn't re-invent the wheel.

But whatever, I'm playing and having a good time. You complain and seem very unhappy. Hope you'll get what you want : I'll play with the settings you want without whining. Adaptability is the word.
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I think those upset by lbd being gone are upset BECAUSE it did reinvent the wheel. You said it best by saying that. They went from a pretty unique system that felt more intuitive and rewarding to one that is exactly like every other RPG out there. They had a unique system, it just needed some more love and attention.

Count on your hand how many survival games had an action system like that. Now count how many have the RPG system 17 has. I think that's the issue. It's not a bad system, it's just much less involving than what we had.

 
I see the game as doing tasks to get food, water, and shelter taken care of and then explore and loot and build defenses to survive blood moons and then continue exploring and improving gear and reaching the point at which you feel invulnerable.

I really enjoyed this game when there was no experience or levels at all. Every task and objective I set for myself was simply to survive and move toward thriving. Since xp has been introduced I read all the time posts like “mining isn’t worth doing because you don’t earn enough xp”.

In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.

I like the point system because (once I fixed the killing xp imbalance) I truly felt free to do whatever I wanted in order achieve objectives to live and survive knowing it was all helping me to improve. I spend my points at night and truly enjoy making those purchasing decisions.

If I were to mod the game further it would be to remove the xp bar and the xp gains from the main screen because I don’t want anything screaming at me to notice xp.

LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?

 
I love the game for the zombie survival and less on building, but the problem is lack of a survival threat. On the hardest settings by day 3 we are up and running:

- every clothing gives +- to temp?!

- unlimited water

- food is everywhere, trader stocks food, vending machines new stock of food everyday?! Canned foods from looting, easy hunting mechanic (would love to see a more fleshed out hunting game where we follow tracks).

- blood moon is a non issue until late game

Adding xp into game is going to harness min/maxers no matter what, but removing LBD from players who enjoy immersing into their character progression was a big let down, it was pretty much the only reason I kept playing in A16, 'not' maxing every skill and try out different character builds.

With end game bandits yet to come, no behemoth, attribute gates, no LBD, I've not played 7dtd in the past week which has been a religious game for me for the past few years. Been playing a lot of Kenshi lately, they've really embraced LBD.

 
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A necessity...hmmm, probably. This is one area though, where I do think TFP would be well advised to put an in-game menu option, "Digging Zombies Y/N". It's super fundamental, and modding it out (or in) is currently nigh on impossible I suspect.
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Absolutely agree to making this an option. The more game play options the merrier.

 
some folks have made the point that the progression in 16.4 needed some fixes, to be sure, but they liked it better than what we have now. my guess is tfp looked at that system as a stepping stone to what they envisioned for gold. taking time to fix that stop gap instead of creating what they truly wanted would have been a waste.

i further guess, that when we get to 17.4 this new system will be better than it is now, and even better than 16.4 because it will allow for so much more depth of character development.

i should point out that i have guessed at all the big lottery number games, and am still win-less.

 
I see the game as doing tasks to get food, water, and shelter taken care of and then explore and loot and build defenses to survive blood moons and then continue exploring and improving gear and reaching the point at which you feel invulnerable.
I really enjoyed this game when there was no experience or levels at all. Every task and objective I set for myself was simply to survive and move toward thriving. Since xp has been introduced I read all the time posts like “mining isn’t worth doing because you don’t earn enough xp”.

In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.

I like the point system because (once I fixed the killing xp imbalance) I truly felt free to do whatever I wanted in order achieve objectives to live and survive knowing it was all helping me to improve. I spend my points at night and truly enjoy making those purchasing decisions.

If I were to mod the game further it would be to remove the xp bar and the xp gains from the main screen because I don’t want anything screaming at me to notice xp.

LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?
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As someone who also played before XP and levels where a thing i have never been a fan of it. I call it a grind constantly because it IS. Adding a leveling system to the game is giving prayers somthing to sink a bunch of time into 'grind'.

Where we disagree is i view the new system as even worse for this than the LBD system.

This game is now about nothing but grinding XP to unlock crafting recipes so i can actualy play the parts of this game that made me play it for hundreds of hours (building and crafting) instead of ten (combat and looting).

 
I see the game as doing tasks to get food, water, and shelter taken care of and then explore and loot and build defenses to survive blood moons and then continue exploring and improving gear and reaching the point at which you feel invulnerable.
In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.

LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?
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And for me, training yourself to be better at something is ALSO something that the "hero"/survivor must do before he can be "invulnerable".

You never had to train a certain skill. Most skills leveledup as you went (armor was slow but pretty much everything else), so if you wanted to get better at something that you disliked, you got points from leveling up.

I actually liked the introduction of skills. It gave a sense of early/mid/endgame. I could have a concrete bunker, but still deal not enough damage to deal with the horde, if I wasn't careful.

This is something that is TRUELY just an opinion. So this is something TFPs have the upper hand :D

 
I see the game as doing tasks to get food, water, and shelter taken care of and then explore and loot and build defenses to survive blood moons and then continue exploring and improving gear and reaching the point at which you feel invulnerable.
I really enjoyed this game when there was no experience or levels at all. Every task and objective I set for myself was simply to survive and move toward thriving. Since xp has been introduced I read all the time posts like “mining isn’t worth doing because you don’t earn enough xp”.

In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.

I like the point system because (once I fixed the killing xp imbalance) I truly felt free to do whatever I wanted in order achieve objectives to live and survive knowing it was all helping me to improve. I spend my points at night and truly enjoy making those purchasing decisions.

If I were to mod the game further it would be to remove the xp bar and the xp gains from the main screen because I don’t want anything screaming at me to notice xp.

LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?
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I loved playing this game without lvls and xp. back those days our group was huge. Now with every new update, more and more moving to other games.

Yes this is not only but also because of xp, gates and few other reasons. They dont want to invest 100 hours of playtime into something that could get reset any time for new update. As long as we cant keep our lvl and go on any server with the same lvl they quit the grind. For us there is no such thing as "Playthrough" i dont even know what that means.

I want to add we are PVP players and never play pve

 
I see the game as doing tasks to get food, water, and shelter taken care of and then explore and loot and build defenses to survive blood moons and then continue exploring and improving gear and reaching the point at which you feel invulnerable.
I really enjoyed this game when there was no experience or levels at all. Every task and objective I set for myself was simply to survive and move toward thriving. Since xp has been introduced I read all the time posts like “mining isn’t worth doing because you don’t earn enough xp”.

In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.

I like the point system because (once I fixed the killing xp imbalance) I truly felt free to do whatever I wanted in order achieve objectives to live and survive knowing it was all helping me to improve. I spend my points at night and truly enjoy making those purchasing decisions.

If I were to mod the game further it would be to remove the xp bar and the xp gains from the main screen because I don’t want anything screaming at me to notice xp.

LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?
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I don't know Roland. I think what's screaming "focus on xp!!!" is the mountain of skills themselves and everyone wants to get to those bigger and better game features. You can hide it, nerf it, do whatever you want. But so long as you have a mountain of skills gating you from the content of the game you really want to be playing with, you're going to have "focus on xp!!!" screaming in the background.

Sure. Maybe for you, out of sight out of mind will be enough to drown out that scream. But I can't imagine even with the play style you seem to favor, the back of your mind isn't still screaming "focus on xp!!!" from a far, only to scoot up and scream louder when you see a skill you really wish you had right now as you're spending points at night. I also wouldn't be surprised if you squashed the hell out of that voice when it pops and re-focused on your plan of attack and next objective. Thus pushing that shout back to the background. But... It's still there. Right? Maybe not... *shrug* :)

Survival Games, at least from my opinion, are best done without XP and without skills. They're purely gear focused and your progression in the game opens new area's/access options to bigger and better gear along with harder challenges to offset the gains. While the older challenges remain present but you're rewarded with those at least becoming much easier.

For example the mobile game Survive was a great survival specific game.

Unfortunately, 7D2D has RPG aspects. So... Skills and XP focus it is. Just the way the cookie crumbles in my world.

 
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Did stamina bother anyone prior to 17? No? Then stamina isn't the issue, the current implementation of it is.

 
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