PC Steam reviews - I kinda figured

this game is not developed in spare time. not sure how many staff there are but there are many paid staff working on this game. thought it was important to point that out
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You are correct. This is an actual Studio with full-time employees....er....independent contractors.... ;)

 
I only play with bow (until the irradiated z come). So when I earn skill points, it's for headshot skills, archery and multiplier skill when sneaking. What's really the difference, except that I'm not forced to put those points to be a better archer (even if I personnaly do it, because I want to become a powerfull archer) ? It's the same thing for the other activities. Once TFP will have balance the XP gain, a miner will level up by mining and spend his points in... guess what : mining skills.

But I may miss something.
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I think you are missing something. After the xp balance you could spend all day and night mining for xp, then spend those points on archery skill. So after a week of mining, you come out of your hole in the ground as an expert archer even though you've never fired an arrow.

That feels unintuitive.

 
I think you are missing something. After the xp balance you could spend all day and night mining for xp, then spend those points on archery skill. So after a week of mining, you come out of your hole in the ground as an expert archer even though you've never fired an arrow.
That feels unintuitive.
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Inmersive al hell x-D

 
The only downside to it, and what probably got TFP to kill it (maybe??), was spamcrafting, but I think that could have been solved without throwing "the baby out with the bath water".
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Two downsides: It was also boringly automatic. Nearly no meaningful choice involved (except maybe for "I want to be better at X; I use X exclusively instead of adapting to the situation").

 
Two downsides: It was also boringly automatic. Nearly no meaningful choice involved (except maybe for "I want to be better at X; I use X exclusively instead of adapting to the situation").
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Oh, I couldn't disagree more. If I wanted to be great with a shotgun, then I had to, naturally enough, start using my shotgun. Now, I'm a master shotgunner because I clicked on a perk point for it.

Either way I've got a choice (use the shotty, or click on the perk), but in the old system, my choice (to use, or not to use my shotty in order to become expert at it), felt vastly more intuitive, and most importantly of all, more fun, than clicking on a perk could ever hope to be.

 
I think you are missing something. After the xp balance you could spend all day and night mining for xp, then spend those points on archery skill. So after a week of mining, you come out of your hole in the ground as an expert archer even though you've never fired an arrow.
That feels unintuitive.
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You never watched arrow ?

To learn shooting a bow you neet to punch water in a bowl

 
I don’t remember when I started playing. Maybe a12-13. I never liked Minecraft, never played it thought it sounded dumb. Then I watch a YouTube vid on 7dtd and started playing, and playing, and playing. I was addicted. Every alpha came and the resets happened and every time I was happy with the updates.

17 is different in that there has never been a major overhaul like this in 3 years since I’ve been play. With any major change, lots of people get upset.

Honestly the only real issues I see are 1) with how stamina is handled at lower levels and some of the perk gating. The stamina issue is a big problem early on and I feel it needs more work. 2) zombie sleepers not spawning right away is always a major issue on MP servers. Enter poi and then they spawn behind you.

However the rest of the changes are amazing, lots of potential for the next 3 months for a18 which is hopefully beta. For now I’m doing a vanilla play through on Nav before I share my full thoughts on all the issues. So far using my knowledge of a17 changes has helped immensely.

Overall I’m only struggling when I play multiplayer on random gen. Joining a day 100 server as a noob isn’t super great.

 
Oh, I couldn't disagree more. If I wanted to be great with a shotgun, then I had to, naturally enough, start using my shotgun. Now, I'm a master shotgunner because I clicked on a perk point for it.
Either way I've got a choice (use the shotty, or click on the perk), but in the old system, my choice (to use, or not to use my shotty in order to become expert at it), felt vastly more intuitive, and most importantly of all, more fun, than clicking on a perk could ever hope to be.
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Agree 100%. No doubt I'll get roasted for posting my opinion again after having said this already, seeing as Roland doesn't consider engaging in discussion constructive and is also willing to give the other side a pass for repeating the same drivel over and over(funny how one directional that criticism is), but I'm going to do it anyway.

The old system feels more meaningful to many of us because your choices actually have meaning and consequence rather than just consequence. You had to make the decision early to spend your time training a skill and then after you put in the effort you got the payoff. Now you can just pick what you want to be good at on a whim and immediately reap the benefit. It's a shallow system, it's over simplified and incredibly archaic. And those of us that see this are sick of being told we shouldn't engage with people who dismiss and disparage these kinds of criticisms, without ever providing explanation of how the system is supposedly more complex or meaningful (saying you feel it is meaningful isn't meaningful if you can't explain how meaning is attached to choices).

 
Also, look at the EA for Ark or the alpha for WoW back in 2003. This is NOTHING compared to those...
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Really? I'd argue that Ark is an example of early access done correctly. They chose a direction and stuck with it. They added a ton of new content to keep people playing. Their early access lasted maybe two years. That's almost how it took to create the A17 stable release.

 
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Really? I'd argue that Ark is an example of early access done correctly. They chose a direction and stuck with it. They added a ton of new content to keep people playing. Their early access lasted maybe two years. That's almost how it took to create the A17 stable release.
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Yeah, ARK was actually one of the best early accesses I've ever seen. Most of those who used to complain about it had clearly not been part of many early access processes before. Yes they made mistakes (releasing a DLC before full release for example) but progress was constant and they had a proper roadmap for the entire time. Even the flyer update wasn't as big of a debacle as this in my opinion, because while it was unpopular they were able to frame it as being a part of the direction they had always wanted to take the game, and honestly you couldn't really dispute that looking at their entire roadmap because it really kind of was in line with everything they'd done. Sure we still hated it, but it wasn't really a change in direction from the devs, just an oversight originally (they never intended ptera that could reach mach 3).

 
I did so because so many people seem to be spewing negativity for a game developed in spare time
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This game is definitely not being developed in spare time (altho it may seem like it on many occasions).

 
I only play with bow (until the irradiated z come). So when I earn skill points, it's for headshot skills, archery and multiplier skill when sneaking. What's really the difference, except that I'm not forced to put those points to be a better archer (even if I personnaly do it, because I want to become a powerfull archer) ? It's the same thing for the other activities. Once TFP will have balance the XP gain, a miner will level up by mining and spend his points in... guess what : mining skills.

But I may miss something.
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I think you are missing something. After the xp balance you could spend all day and night mining for xp, then spend those points on archery skill. So after a week of mining, you come out of your hole in the ground as an expert archer even though you've never fired an arrow.That feels unintuitive.
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A little bit akward. With the new system, YOU can simulate the "learning by doing" thing by spending your points in the specialization you use to earn those points. It's the same thing. But, for me who don't like being forced to use a riffle for hours before being good at it, it's a good thing too. Aren't you saying you don't want me to play that way ?

Immersion is your choice, you are not forced to distribute points in other perks than the ones you use. Or is the temptation to do it an issue ?

For example, I hate mining - but I like building. With the new system, I can spend my time exploring, killing z, hunting, harvesting the old world. And when I decide it's time to go and break boulders, I can spend points in that activity and be efficient. I have the feeling that you want me to spend a lot of time getting despressed in front of thousand boulders...

 
A little bit akward. With the new system, YOU can simulate the "learning by doing" thing by spending your points in the specialization you use to earn those points. It's the same thing. But, for me who don't like being forced to use a riffle for hours before being good at it, it's a good thing too. Aren't you saying you don't want me to play that way ?Immersion is your choice, you are not forced to distribute points in other perks than the ones you use. Or is the temptation to do it an issue ?

For example, I hate mining - but I like building. With the new system, I can spend my time exploring, killing z, hunting, harvesting the old world. And when I decide it's time to go and break boulders, I can spend points in that activity and be efficient. I have the feeling that you want me to spend a lot of time getting despressed in front of thousand boulders...
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Sounds to me you just want the game to be easier ;)

 
I think they went a bit too granular w A16 system. A combo of a 'Ranged Weapons' learn by doing & perk based specializations; which is sorta what they had, but not really? Sry, can't recall all the fine details.

But take "Crafting". A woodworker learns a bunch of basic skills that are applicable to other crafts. Measuring, planning, reading plans, basic hand-eye coordination, etc.

Ranged Weapons all share some skills, estimating distance, trigger pull/string release being critical, how to use sights, general maintenance.

Or simple cardio. Lots of walking or running improve overall energy lvls, even when standing still.

Strength from swinging a pick or an axe certainly translate into more stamina swinging a bat at a zombie.

Wear body armor &/or a backpack all the time and you get used to it.

And don't try to stretch these out over 200+ hours. Or at least front load ~75% to the first quarter. Have the player feel they're progressing.

 
No it doesn't. There was no sense of accomplishment in the learning-by-doing system.
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For you.

For many of us (dare I say probably most, given the success of Skyrim), there is a huge sense of accomplishment in learning by doing.

- - - Updated - - -

The only downside to it, and what probably got TFP to kill it (maybe??), was spamcrafting, but I think that could have been solved without throwing "the baby out with the bath water".
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They already fixed that in A16.4

 
A little bit akward. With the new system, YOU can simulate the "learning by doing" thing by spending your points in the specialization you use to earn those points. It's the same thing. But, for me who don't like being forced to use a riffle for hours before being good at it, it's a good thing too. Aren't you saying you don't want me to play that way ?Immersion is your choice, you are not forced to distribute points in other perks than the ones you use. Or is the temptation to do it an issue ?

For example, I hate mining - but I like building. With the new system, I can spend my time exploring, killing z, hunting, harvesting the old world. And when I decide it's time to go and break boulders, I can spend points in that activity and be efficient. I have the feeling that you want me to spend a lot of time getting despressed in front of thousand boulders...
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A16.4 had both aspects, that's probably why more people were happy. Now only you and people with your mind set are happy.

 
A little bit akward. With the new system, YOU can simulate the "learning by doing" thing by spending your points in the specialization you use to earn those points. It's the same thing. But, for me who don't like being forced to use a riffle for hours before being good at it, it's a good thing too. Aren't you saying you don't want me to play that way ?Immersion is your choice, you are not forced to distribute points in other perks than the ones you use. Or is the temptation to do it an issue ?

For example, I hate mining - but I like building. With the new system, I can spend my time exploring, killing z, hunting, harvesting the old world. And when I decide it's time to go and break boulders, I can spend points in that activity and be efficient. I have the feeling that you want me to spend a lot of time getting despressed in front of thousand boulders...
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You have a point there... the downside of the "learn by doing" system is that IF/WHEN you change idea about how to develop your toon it may be too late and you just fall behind since you'll need to practice for hours what you need even if you hate doing that.

On top of that there are lots of "dumb" and boring activities that you're forced to repeat over and over just to get one more point on that skill. I called it "the hamster wheel" lol

It would be great if they'd find a compromise between the two systems (meaning pure skill point leveling and LBD / Learn By Doing).

One possible solution would be to earn skill points for attribute related activities. Example: when you melee fight you mainly get EXP on STR, AGI. When you shoot you mainily get EXP on PER + AGI. When you craft you mainly get EXP on INT + AGI. And so on.

Once you have enough EXP on any one attribute, the attribute levels up and you get a skill point to spend there (and only there).

 
You have a point there... the downside of the "learn by doing" system is that IF/WHEN you change idea about how to develop your toon it may be too late and you just fall behind since you'll need to practice for hours what you need even if you hate doing that.
On top of that there are lots of "dumb" and boring activities that you're forced to repeat over and over just to get one more point on that skill. I called it "the hamster wheel" lol

It would be great if they'd find a compromise between the two systems (meaning pure skill point leveling and LBD / Learn By Doing).
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Well that was the beauty of A16.4. It had both. It had learn by doing, so with each bag of garbage you opened, you were directly upping your scavenge skill, but you were also earning XP that could be directly put into a skill that you didn't want to develop naturally, say archery or whatever.

 
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