PC Steam reviews - I kinda figured

With all due respect they are NOT making this game to please streamers. If they are its TERRIBLE game design. How fun the early game is as it relates to streamers incomes has ZERO bearing on the direction of where any game should go.
If early game is hurting their business, simply giveselfxp or cheat in some tools and weapons. You could make it part of the lore if you choose. But at no point should the early game be influenced because it is boring to watch on a stream.

A streamer will remain popular and engaging through the worst games. Kage and Kickz are perfect examples. They are extremely popular not because of WHAT they play but who they are, how they engage their audiences and their personalities.
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I was more curious if his viewers were enjoying the game or not, not all viewers are players of the game. I expanded on the last post I made.

And yes they shouldn't make the game for streamers, as you said, that's just a poor game design then. But since he is a streamer I'm just pointing out from a viewers perspective, it's the person that keeps them interested, as well as the game situations, but that can only hold someone for so long as well if the game gets too boring... like I feel it is now.

 
What I would REALLY like now Fun Pimps, is an option to turn on/off RPG elements, or play Sandbox mode. So none of the rpg elements are around to bore the game. That way we can keep getting the graphical updates, ai changes (I'm sure it will improve) and other elements of the game that are good, but remove the RPG so we can still play a sandbox mode. And no Creative Mode isn't the same thing.
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No, but modding is. And that is the answer TFP will give you (because they and Roland gave this answer lots of times now). Sandbox mode is quite easy to get. Set all crafting perks at maximum. Depending on your style set all other perks max or at a mid level. Don't even bother with giving yourself xp. Now optionally adjust gamestage progression and some other parameters to your liking. Done.

 
From an entertainment point of view, you not finding the calipers was probably an enjoyable plot line for the viewers. Didn't they comment on it and laugh, and it was a thing they talked about?
I actually enjoy watching Kickz more than I like playing the game. A Large part of that is his reaction to frustrating situations, or continually getting annoyed with certain mechanics I know are broken but the devs don't seem to care to fix. The youtuber makes it interesting, the RNG makes it interesting. If you're always going to get whatever you need because you can perk it or build it or buy it then that whole element is gone. Which in turns takes away from the enjoyment of the viewer. The player, ya, I can see them/you, being frustrated but that's survival. You don't magically get the ability to do something just because you killed enough zombies and oh boiiiyee hot ■■■■, now I can make calipers. That's not survival. But then, is 7dtd a survival game anymore? Once skills go in I argue it's moved past survival into something else, and clearly we're leaving the sandbox now too.

I hear you saying you are glad for it and don't like RNG but the simple fact is, it adds so much game play

What I would REALLY like now Fun Pimps, is an option to turn on/off RPG elements, or play Sandbox mode. So none of the rpg elements are around to bore the game. That way we can keep getting the graphical updates, ai changes (I'm sure it will improve) and other elements of the game that are good, but remove the RPG so we can still play a sandbox mode. And no Creative Mode isn't the same thing.

This way the fans that love the way the game was can play the way they want, and those that like the rpg/fallout role could play that one. It's not even having two games, it's just not forcing one segment of the game on everyone. Lots of games do this, allow for a sandbox mode.
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I bet most of the viewers would rather see me shooting guns than crossbow bolts. Takes longer to kill and is just boring to watch. I would get bored watching a youtuber shooting zombies for 10 mins because they are bullet sponges and the poor guy cant make ammo. Maybe it's just me, I dunno.

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With all due respect they are NOT making this game to please streamers. If they are its TERRIBLE game design. How fun the early game is as it relates to streamers incomes has ZERO bearing on the direction of where any game should go.
If early game is hurting their business, simply giveselfxp or cheat in some tools and weapons. You could make it part of the lore if you choose. But at no point should the early game be influenced because it is boring to watch on a stream.

A streamer will remain popular and engaging through the worst games. Kage and Kickz are perfect examples. They are extremely popular not because of WHAT they play but who they are, how they engage their audiences and their personalities.
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Let me be clear, I agree with this 100%

Please guys just know some of my opinion is effected by being an content creator. But not all of it. And I still think my views are valid.

 
No, but modding is. And that is the answer TFP will give you (because they and Roland gave this answer lots of times now). Sandbox mode is quite easy to get. Set all crafting perks at maximum. Depending on your style set all other perks max or at a mid level. Don't even bother with giving yourself xp. Now optionally adjust gamestage progression and some other parameters to your liking. Done.
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yeah, that's just not the same tho is it.

We're going to need to rely on modders, but that doesn't mean you'll get the game you want still. Not all of us have the time/skill to mod it exactly like we'd want. Turning off all the rpg elements, or introducing hundreds of toggles to adjust in an "advanced zombie slayer' tab as has been requested, could help as well.

But for better or worse, we're moving past survival sandbox into an rpg world that players will either learn to love, mod the hell out of or or just quit playing.

 
I was more curious if his viewers were enjoying the game or not, not all viewers are players of the game. I expanded on the last post I made.
And yes they shouldn't make the game for streamers, as you said, that's just a poor game design then. But since he is a streamer I'm just pointing out from a viewers perspective, it's the person that keeps them interested, as well as the game situations, but that can only hold someone for so long as well if the game gets too boring... like I feel it is now.
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In that regard I can agree with that. If there is one thing I have started to notice watching a handful of streamers on rotation is that most gameplay elements are feeling linear. The personality is indeed the only thing separating anyone from the pack. I guess that goes along with the layout of perks and how they unlock or are obtained. Previously we would see all sorts of gameplay styles. But recently it seems as if most streamers are shoe horned into similar paths to the objective.

 
yeah, that's just not the same tho is it.
We're going to need to rely on modders, but that doesn't mean you'll get the game you want still. Not all of us have the time/skill to mod it exactly like we'd want. Turning off all the rpg elements, or introducing hundreds of toggles to adjust in an "advanced zombie slayer' tab as has been requested, could help as well.

But for better or worse, we're moving past survival sandbox into an rpg world that players will either learn to love, mod the hell out of or or just quit playing.
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With the flexibility modding offers, and with how many mods we have already, if modders cant hit that sweet spot for you, how is it reasonable to expect TFP to hit it? They are working with a way more generic canvas since they have to appeal to everyone if possible. Mods can hit specific areas.

I know its been said to death ad nauseum but learning to mod is the only true way to enjoy the game as you wish it to be. How many other companies out there offer that kind of flexibility. And of they do how many offer it in such an easy manner that its as simple as opening a document and changing a number? TFP have gone out of their way to allow the player to create the experience they desire.

If more people took advantage of that there would be far fewer unhappy customers.

 
With the flexibility modding offers, and with how many mods we have already, if modders cant hit that sweet spot for you, how is it reasonable to expect TFP to hit it? They are working with a way more generic canvas since they have to appeal to everyone if possible. Mods can hit specific areas.
I know its been said to death ad nauseum but learning to mod is the only true way to enjoy the game as you wish it to be. How many other companies out there offer that kind of flexibility. And of they do how many offer it in such an easy manner that its as simple as opening a document and changing a number? TFP have gone out of their way to allow the player to create the experience they desire.

If more people took advantage of that there would be far fewer unhappy customers.
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You are right of course. I keep watching the mod section, and do a bit more on my own. I'm not sure if anyone has managed to scrap the whole skill/perk system yet.

I'd be happy to get rid of that and just put the books back, I know one modder has put that in, but haven't tried it yet, and not sure if it's fully working because you still need all of them removed from the skill tree.

 
So an option to turn the 7day horde off is fine (despite bieng THE core gameplay).

But one to turn off the RPG elements isnt?

Bull♥♥♥♥.

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Kage relates RNG in 7days to not getting paid for his job... because 7 days to die *is* his job.

But yeah we will have to agree to disagree, RNG/looting being the only way to progress and learn new recipes made every game diffrent. (Replayability)

Like people pointed out NOT finding calipers and being unable to craft ammo as a result is a ♥♥♥♥ ton more intresting than 'i specificly choose to not be able to craft this thing so i deal more melee damage'

Now? Grind level 10 for a forge, grind level 30 for steel. Every game will play the exact same with minor differances in player stats.

Not saying skill books where perfect, but they were a game i wanted to play, 7daystofallout isnt.

 
yeah, that's just not the same tho is it.
We're going to need to rely on modders, but that doesn't mean you'll get the game you want still. Not all of us have the time/skill to mod it exactly like we'd want. Turning off all the rpg elements, or introducing hundreds of toggles to adjust in an "advanced zombie slayer' tab as has been requested, could help as well.

But for better or worse, we're moving past survival sandbox into an rpg world that players will either learn to love, mod the hell out of or or just quit playing.
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Yes, most people will have to hope that some modder has a similar taste. But really, there have been enough sandbox players (for example) posting their views on a regular basis, just one of them with a modicum of programming skills needs to put that energy into making a "sandbox" mod.

7d2d has a very low entry threshold to modding. It is so simple that I could even show anyone able to edit a text file how he could do what I was proposing, and I would need just a paragraph or two to explain it.

 
I bet most of the viewers would rather see me shooting guns than crossbow bolts. Takes longer to kill and is just boring to watch. I would get bored watching a youtuber shooting zombies for 10 mins because they are bullet sponges and the poor guy cant make ammo. Maybe it's just me, I dunno.
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Let me be clear, I agree with this 100%

Please guys just know some of my opinion is effected by being an content creator. But not all of it. And I still think my views are valid.
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Gonna have to disgree (again) here kage.

If the enemies are spongy as hell if you are not using a specfic weapon (guns).. why even have the rest of the weapons?

Not finding calipers in that game made every piece of ammo you found exciting.

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Im of the opinon that the basic bow/crossbow *should* be able to kill everything in the game if you hit them in the head 2 or 3 times.

(use player SKILL, not characters stats)

A17 is the worst balanced alpha to date: it takes 6-7 bodyshots to kill a zombir with a day 1 bow.... what the hell? It used to be if you didnt hit the head you did effectively no damage, now shooting somthing in the toe can kill it.

 
...Bull♥♥♥♥.

...

Like people pointed out NOT finding calipers and being unable to craft ammo as a result is a ♥♥♥♥ ton more intresting than 'i specificly choose to not be able to craft this thing so i deal more melee damage'
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I would ♥♥♥♥ing answer your ♥♥♥♥ post but I'm ♥♥♥♥ at ♥♥♥♥ emphasizing everone of my ♥♥♥♥ing points. Because everyone has to ♥♥♥♥ understand that I'm ♥♥♥♥ angry. ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥

:fat:

 
Its intended in the design of the game for more risk = more reward. Sorry you can't sit on your ■■■ in a cave and come out 3 days later with the best gear the game has anymore. You have to go looting to get the best stuff or pay top dollar for it at a trader.
We're going to introduce some simple mods that you don't need a schematic for. But how hard is it to loot a book store? Those aren't very dangerous at all.
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I understand the risk vs reward mentality you're pointing out here. However, I think the point that was being made is that crafting is now effectively a bad option and due to skill points being so limited as well as gamestage being based on level, it's actually bad to invest into crafting because you will be worse off.

I simultaneously agree that you shouldn't be able to sit in a cave for 3 days and come out with the best stuff in the game, nor should crafting be hindered as it currently is, especially in a game so focused around base building/crafting.

Perhaps the main issue here is actually that investing into intellect doesn't offer any real advantages over going for damage and looting simultaneously.

 
I understand the risk vs reward mentality you're pointing out here. However, I think the point that was being made is that crafting is now effectively a bad option and due to skill points being so limited as well as gamestage being based on level, it's actually bad to invest into crafting because you will be worse off.
I simultaneously agree that you shouldn't be able to sit in a cave for 3 days and come out with the best stuff in the game, nor should crafting be hindered as it currently is, especially in a game so focused around base building/crafting.

Perhaps the main issue here is actually that investing into intellect doesn't offer any real advantages over going for damage and looting simultaneously.
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So I was asked what I added to my game that has made me enjoy it more and one big thing is Quality mattering.

The talented wookienookie (dev on RH) has added Quality back into the game for us, and I have balanced tools and weapons to increment a base of block and entity damage ever 20 levels of craft. Our system goes from 1-120. every 20 levels is a new increase in tier. every single digit adds a fraction of a percentage to stats. I have rebalanced perks to fit with the new values.

I can honestly tell you looting a quality 39 wrench or a quality 92 fireaxe feels SO much more gratifying and adds incentive to keep looking for better items. I did NOT change anything in progression or perks (yet) but that small change alone, along with crafters actually getting to see their work reward SOMETHING other than just how durable the item is makes crafting feel worthwhile.

It's such a simple addition, one that offers rewards and does not change the path that they have laid out for us. I don't think TFP need to reinvent the wheel here, they just need to make some worthwhile tweaks and allow for some type of rewarding feeling while we play.

 
Gonna have to disgree (again) here kage.If the enemies are spongy as hell if you are not using a specfic weapon (guns).. why even have the rest of the weapons?

Not finding calipers in that game made every piece of ammo you found exciting.

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Im of the opinon that the basic bow/crossbow *should* be able to kill everything in the game if you hit them in the head 2 or 3 times.

(use player SKILL, not characters stats)

A17 is the worst balanced alpha to date: it takes 6-7 bodyshots to kill a zombir with a day 1 bow.... what the hell? It used to be if you didnt hit the head you did effectively no damage, now shooting somthing in the toe can kill it.
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I dont mind the enemies being spongy with a bow. What I mind is days and days on searching, hours and hours, with no payoff. Biggest case of blueballs I ever had lol.

And no, finding ammo was just more salt in the wound. Oh wow cool, I have enough bullets now to kill a couple of zombies. Lame.

Also this has very little to do with YouTube. I put in the time and effort to level up, search or grind boulders, I want the reward. Rng = sometimes no reward and that's not fun to me.

I get you love it and in a way I'm sad the game is worse for you. I bet someone mods them back in.

 
I dont mind the enemies being spongy with a bow. What I mind is days and days on searching, hours and hours, with no payoff. Biggest case of blueballs I ever had lol.
And no, finding ammo was just more salt in the wound. Oh wow cool, I have enough bullets now to kill a couple of zombies. Lame.

Also this has very little to do with YouTube. I put in the time and effort to level up, search or grind boulders, I want the reward. Rng = sometimes no reward and that's not fun to me.

I get you love it and in a way I'm sad the game is worse for you. I bet someone mods them back in.
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Having to mod major festures in/out of the game for it to be as enjoyable as it was one stable release ago is not on in my book.

Il take days of searching for an illusive book over not wanting to play the game because yet another game system has been dumbed down to the point of irrelevance.

The ammount of effort required in this alpha went from days of looting and being excited when you found the spiked club schem to grind XP by digging/killing zombies and unlock a recipe.

Simpler? Yes

Better game mechanic? Not to me, this new perk system is so far removed from what the game used to be.

You used to get a buzz when you found certain books like the minibike, it was pretty obvious to see from your reaction.

Either that or you are MUCH better at faking than i give you credit for.

I get what you and others have said. This system is what was missing from a16: bad luck protection... thats good, it completely replacing what we had before instead of adding to it... not so much.

For reference i dont have a problem with level gates either: my issue wih them was TFP making silly balance decisions around them.

Level gates can be fine, bake base HP/stamina and crafting recipes into player level so they are not having to intentionally make themsevles weaker, make perk choices all about combat.

 
Having to mod major festures in/out of the game for it to be as enjoyable as it was one stable release ago is not on in my book.
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Not going to lie I am not a fan of this Alpha but even I understand that there will never be a game where i enjoy every single aspect of it. I play so many survival games like Hold Your Own and The Forest where in the back of my head I say to myself "man if i could tweak this or add that it would be so cool" but I'm SOL.

7 Days is one of the rare instances where what you dont like can be reversed, what you want to see can be added. And you don't have to expect devs to add these things if for some reason you're desire doesn't match up with the publics. For me I hate that levelling is so fast. So i know that the majority hate the slow progression already. I'm not going to boycott until Pimps do something unreasonable like make levelling slower. I took 2 minutes and made it slower. Now i can go on and enjoy the game without imposing my wishes on everyone else.

There's a time to be upset, and a time to be reasonable. If things look like they are not going to go the way you like them, you have a choice to implement yourself what will make you happy. Few other games even offer this solution.

 
Go and talk to my collagues who work in the northern part of Siberia. They would laugh.
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Yeh I'm sure they stand outside in their skivvies... Oh no wait, they don't... They dress warmly because... It's cold!

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.. for you.
A17 beats A16 and A15 with regards to 'fun' by an exponential factor.
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Aren't all our posts "for you(me")?

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Ok the issue is with melee vs zombies. Are you talking about poi clearing or horde night? What's your level and what day are you on? What your day setting at?
Maybe you leveled too fast with the 10x biome spawns. In assuming that means more zombies.

Either way your server is so unbalievabley modded, or so it seems, I'm not sure it's the base games fault? Maby adjust the mods on the, is it s server? Maybe more powerful str melee options. Can you mod in new melee perks? That could be cool.
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Presumably if I level up fast the zombies level with me, it's the same as if I naturally level and the zombies naturally level with me.

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Major modder server. Please correct me guppy if I'm wrong. But please dont make adjustments based off modded servers.
Again please correct me if I'm missing something here.
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He's not planning to, he's only mentioning that he hasn't gotten that far yet. Which I think is a prevailing problem with all of the pimps, they don't have time to play so they don't know what end game looks like.

 
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I would ♥♥♥♥ing answer your ♥♥♥♥ post but I'm ♥♥♥♥ at ♥♥♥♥ emphasizing everone of my ♥♥♥♥ing points. Because everyone has to ♥♥♥♥ understand that I'm ♥♥♥♥ angry. ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥
:fat:
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...so much love...

 
Presumably if I level up fast the zombies level with me, it's the same as if I naturally level and the zombies naturally level with me.
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Right. Its all a moving power curve and staying ahead of that is what makes the difference.

Player level and player lethality/survivability, are not the same.

Gazz brought up a good point that leveling up is not good or bad, but gaining important mods and useful equipment is all good.

So, how do you get the good loot/equipment from a strong POI without gain a bunch of levels? Backdoors.

Some strong POI's (Water Works for example) have a great backdoor that TFP's want you to use to gain a little on the power curve. There are others that may or may not be as obvious, but they are there.

 
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