Stealth Rework Proposal (Performance-Conscious Approach)

Lisa_Lina

Refugee
In English:
I don't know where exactly to post this, so I duplicated it here.

Dear Developers,

Introduction:

My name is Lina, and I have been playing your game since the early alpha stages. I truly appreciate your hard work and I genuinely love your game. I know you are constantly trying to optimize it and make the experience enjoyable for all players. I’ve noticed that a portion of the community has been very critical about the current stealth system and optimization decisions, and I decided to share a few ideas from the perspective of someone who has previously worked with programming.

Main Points (Detailed Reasons and Proposed Solutions):

1) Restoring Full Stealth in POIs


Some players would like to see proper stealth mechanics return to POIs. Currently, Trigger Zones are widely used, which automatically awaken all zombies and effectively break stealth gameplay. As I understand it, this approach was originally implemented to optimize zombie spawning and processing within locations.

How do I see a possible solution? By approaching the issue from a different angle.

First, POI zones could be replaced with two dynamic player-centered zones: a Loading Zone and a Detection Zone. These zones should not be cubic but rectangular prisms.

Each location would still contain predefined spawn positions for zombies. Zombies would only be loaded when the player’s Loading Zone intersects with an unloaded zombie spawn point. The system should also take into account the character’s facing direction (their field of view).

Now regarding detection: the Detection Zone should not be static. It should dynamically expand or shrink based on factors such as lighting conditions, smell, and noise levels.

If a zombie that was previously loaded (by an earlier Loading Zone overlap) sees, hears, or smells the player, it should then be awakened or switched into an aggro state toward the player.


2) Zombies Always Knowing the Player’s Position in Trigger Zones

Many players complain that zombies inside Trigger Zones always know the player's exact position, even if the player has not made any noise.

What solution would I suggest?

First, zombies should primarily react to the source of a sound rather than directly to the player. Let’s conceptually separate the player from the noise source, similar to your stone-throwing mechanic.

When the player creates a noise, and zombies do not have visual contact, they should investigate the source of the sound — not immediately know the player's location. They move toward the noise and only initiate an attack once they actually SEE the player.

If the player is detected visually, that’s when combat begins.

The same logic should apply to smell. We can treat scent similarly to sound, except that it originates from the player’s position. However, zombies should NOT be able to detect or “see” the player through walls. Instead, they should move to investigate the “disturbance.” If the player is then visually confirmed — only then should an attack begin.


3) Storms

I believe that during storms and at night, zombies’ vision and scent detection should be weaker than usual. However, their strength and speed should increase due to the constant ambient noise and chaos.

This would create interesting gameplay dynamics:
  • In an empty house during a storm, the player would be relatively safe because zombies would struggle to detect them.
  • However, if the house is not empty, all zombies inside should already be in an aggressive state.
  • Any additional noise made by the player should immediately trigger an attack.

Conclusion:

Thank you for taking the time to read my message. It is very important to me to receive at least some meaningful feedback, because I truly care about your project and wish it nothing but success.

I want to play a logical, engaging, and well-optimized product. I hope you will consider my ideas and perhaps take some of them into account.


Дорогие разработчики,

Вступление:


Я Лина, и я играю в вашу игру с ранних альф. Я очень ценю ваши труды и люблю вашу игру. Я знаю, вы стараетесь оптимизировать игру и сделать всех игроков счастливыми. Я заметила, что часть игроков очень плохо отзывается о стелсе и оптимизации и решила подать несколько идей, как человек, который ранее занимался программированием.

Сама суть (Причины и решения подробно):

1) Восстановление полной скрытности в POIs


Часть игроков хотели бы вернуть полноценный стелс в POI. Сейчас почти везде используются Trigger-Zones, которые пробуждают всех зомби, который его ломает. Изначально, по моим данным, это было сделано для оптимизации прогрузки зомби в локации и их обработку.

Как я вижу решение проблемы? Подходом к проблеме с другой стороны!

Во-первых, зоны POIs нужно заменить на 2 зоны - зону вокруг игрока (Зона прогрузки и Зона заметности). Эти зоны не куб, а прямоугольный параллелепипед. В каждой локации есть заготовленные позиции для зомби, и зомби можно прогружать в то время, когда Зона прогрузки игрока попадает на этого непрогруженного зомби. Нужно учитывать угол поворота персонажа (направление его взгляда). Приступаем к самой заметности - Зона заметности не должна быть статичной. Её нужно расширять и уменьшать, учитывая такие параметры как освещенность, запах, шум. Если уже прогруженный ранее (прошлой зоной) зомби увидел, услышал или учуял игрока - его можно пробудить или включить режим агра на игрока.

2) Зомби всегда знают позицию игрока в Триггер-зонах.

Многие игроки жалуются на то, что зомби в Триггер-зоне всегда знает где игрок, даже если тот не издал шум. Какое решение я предлагаю? Во первых, лучше всего агрить зомби на источник шума в первую очередь, а не самого игрока. Представим что шум и игрок не едины, как с вашей системой кидания камней. Игрок издаёт шум, и зомби если не видят игрока - идут проверять камень, так как они не должны сейчас знать где игрок. Они проверяют его по шуму, пока не УВИДЯТ. Если игрока увидели - это уже нападение. С запахом идентично. Представим, что запах это шум, но который исходит из точки игрока. Зомби НЕ ДОЛЖНЫ видеть игрока через стены, а должны пойти проверять что же там за "шум". Если игрок обнаружен - нападение.

3) Штормы.

Я считаю, что при шторме и ночью у всех зомби зрение и чутьё должно быть хуже, чем обычно. Но сила и скорость должна возрастать, так как это постоянный шум. Это значит, что в пустом доме во время шторма будет безопасно, потому что зомби не видят игрока. Но если дом не пуст - все зомби в доме должны быть в состоянии агрессии. Если хоть какой-то лишний шум издаёт игрок - они должны будут нападать.

Заключение:

Спасибо что выслушали меня. Мне очень важно получить от вас хоть какой-то полезный фидбек, потому что я очень переживаю за ваш проект и желаю ему лишь самого хорошего. Я хочу играть в логичный, интересный и оптимизированный продукт. Надеюсь, вы прислушаетесь к моим идеям и что-то возьмёте на заметку.
 
Certainly food for thought.

Changing zombie placement to being based on a radius around the player is interesting. I suspect it would affect non-stealth as well and I wonder how it would play.

With triggers, I don't think the zombies start with knowledge of your location, but given the player had to enter the trigger volume and that volume might be so small that zombies are right on top of you, leading to immediate detection.

Storms (and other weather effects) are certainly an opportunity for a variety of interesting variants and I wish there were lots of easily configurable options there such that your goals, the current game's goals, and some other goals would all be possible based on those settings. I, for instance, have not found feral sense to be all that useful, but if I could tie it to some scalable effect -- such as how much fog there is -- then I might enjoy that.

e.g. The foggier it is, the more feral sense kicks in, but that would complicate stealth not make it easier. So you might want fog to scale back detection range, for instance, and both options are cool.
 
With triggers, I don't think the zombies start with knowledge of your location, but given the player had to enter the trigger volume and that volume might be so small that zombies are right on top of you, leading to immediate detection.
Of course, zombies don't always know where the player is. But the trigger zone is usually quite large. You can enter a POI and zombies are already coming towards you, right in your direction. At one POI with army tents, this is very noticeable, when out of nowhere, all sorts of zombies run out from literally every corner, as if they were deliberately camping the player.
 
I agree with points 1 and 2.

However, I disagree with point 3. Storms are relatively rare and are designed to create extreme conditions, so let the zombies get stronger. A loss of vision will weaken them, which is not good.
 
In English:
I don't know where exactly to post this, so I duplicated it here.

Dear Developers,

Introduction:

My name is Lina, and I have been playing your game since the early alpha stages. I truly appreciate your hard work and I genuinely love your game. I know you are constantly trying to optimize it and make the experience enjoyable for all players. I’ve noticed that a portion of the community has been very critical about the current stealth system and optimization decisions, and I decided to share a few ideas from the perspective of someone who has previously worked with programming.

Main Points (Detailed Reasons and Proposed Solutions):

1) Restoring Full Stealth in POIs


Some players would like to see proper stealth mechanics return to POIs. Currently, Trigger Zones are widely used, which automatically awaken all zombies and effectively break stealth gameplay. As I understand it, this approach was originally implemented to optimize zombie spawning and processing within locations.

How do I see a possible solution? By approaching the issue from a different angle.

First, POI zones could be replaced with two dynamic player-centered zones: a Loading Zone and a Detection Zone. These zones should not be cubic but rectangular prisms.

Each location would still contain predefined spawn positions for zombies. Zombies would only be loaded when the player’s Loading Zone intersects with an unloaded zombie spawn point. The system should also take into account the character’s facing direction (their field of view).

Now regarding detection: the Detection Zone should not be static. It should dynamically expand or shrink based on factors such as lighting conditions, smell, and noise levels.

If a zombie that was previously loaded (by an earlier Loading Zone overlap) sees, hears, or smells the player, it should then be awakened or switched into an aggro state toward the player.


2) Zombies Always Knowing the Player’s Position in Trigger Zones

Many players complain that zombies inside Trigger Zones always know the player's exact position, even if the player has not made any noise.

What solution would I suggest?

First, zombies should primarily react to the source of a sound rather than directly to the player. Let’s conceptually separate the player from the noise source, similar to your stone-throwing mechanic.

When the player creates a noise, and zombies do not have visual contact, they should investigate the source of the sound — not immediately know the player's location. They move toward the noise and only initiate an attack once they actually SEE the player.

If the player is detected visually, that’s when combat begins.

The same logic should apply to smell. We can treat scent similarly to sound, except that it originates from the player’s position. However, zombies should NOT be able to detect or “see” the player through walls. Instead, they should move to investigate the “disturbance.” If the player is then visually confirmed — only then should an attack begin.


3) Storms

I believe that during storms and at night, zombies’ vision and scent detection should be weaker than usual. However, their strength and speed should increase due to the constant ambient noise and chaos.

This would create interesting gameplay dynamics:
  • In an empty house during a storm, the player would be relatively safe because zombies would struggle to detect them.
  • However, if the house is not empty, all zombies inside should already be in an aggressive state.
  • Any additional noise made by the player should immediately trigger an attack.

Conclusion:

Thank you for taking the time to read my message. It is very important to me to receive at least some meaningful feedback, because I truly care about your project and wish it nothing but success.

I want to play a logical, engaging, and well-optimized product. I hope you will consider my ideas and perhaps take some of them into account.


Дорогие разработчики,

Вступление:


Я Лина, и я играю в вашу игру с ранних альф. Я очень ценю ваши труды и люблю вашу игру. Я знаю, вы стараетесь оптимизировать игру и сделать всех игроков счастливыми. Я заметила, что часть игроков очень плохо отзывается о стелсе и оптимизации и решила подать несколько идей, как человек, который ранее занимался программированием.

Сама суть (Причины и решения подробно):

1) Восстановление полной скрытности в POIs


Часть игроков хотели бы вернуть полноценный стелс в POI. Сейчас почти везде используются Trigger-Zones, которые пробуждают всех зомби, который его ломает. Изначально, по моим данным, это было сделано для оптимизации прогрузки зомби в локации и их обработку.

Как я вижу решение проблемы? Подходом к проблеме с другой стороны!

Во-первых, зоны POIs нужно заменить на 2 зоны - зону вокруг игрока (Зона прогрузки и Зона заметности). Эти зоны не куб, а прямоугольный параллелепипед. В каждой локации есть заготовленные позиции для зомби, и зомби можно прогружать в то время, когда Зона прогрузки игрока попадает на этого непрогруженного зомби. Нужно учитывать угол поворота персонажа (направление его взгляда). Приступаем к самой заметности - Зона заметности не должна быть статичной. Её нужно расширять и уменьшать, учитывая такие параметры как освещенность, запах, шум. Если уже прогруженный ранее (прошлой зоной) зомби увидел, услышал или учуял игрока - его можно пробудить или включить режим агра на игрока.

2) Зомби всегда знают позицию игрока в Триггер-зонах.

Многие игроки жалуются на то, что зомби в Триггер-зоне всегда знает где игрок, даже если тот не издал шум. Какое решение я предлагаю? Во первых, лучше всего агрить зомби на источник шума в первую очередь, а не самого игрока. Представим что шум и игрок не едины, как с вашей системой кидания камней. Игрок издаёт шум, и зомби если не видят игрока - идут проверять камень, так как они не должны сейчас знать где игрок. Они проверяют его по шуму, пока не УВИДЯТ. Если игрока увидели - это уже нападение. С запахом идентично. Представим, что запах это шум, но который исходит из точки игрока. Зомби НЕ ДОЛЖНЫ видеть игрока через стены, а должны пойти проверять что же там за "шум". Если игрок обнаружен - нападение.

3) Штормы.

Я считаю, что при шторме и ночью у всех зомби зрение и чутьё должно быть хуже, чем обычно. Но сила и скорость должна возрастать, так как это постоянный шум. Это значит, что в пустом доме во время шторма будет безопасно, потому что зомби не видят игрока. Но если дом не пуст - все зомби в доме должны быть в состоянии агрессии. Если хоть какой-то лишний шум издаёт игрок - они должны будут нападать.

Заключение:

Спасибо что выслушали меня. Мне очень важно получить от вас хоть какой-то полезный фидбек, потому что я очень переживаю за ваш проект и желаю ему лишь самого хорошего. Я хочу играть в логичный, интересный и оптимизированный продукт. Надеюсь, вы прислушаетесь к моим идеям и что-то возьмёте на заметку.
i have no issue with stealth love it.. Can stealth attack volumes even. in fact many times a z has gone past me . They also go to the spot you were at when detected so simple rule move if you fail stealth.

every armour path has a anti to it so for a player to want to be 100% stealth they should just turn god mode on.
Post automatically merged:

Of course, zombies don't always know where the player is. But the trigger zone is usually quite large. You can enter a POI and zombies are already coming towards you, right in your direction. At one POI with army tents, this is very noticeable, when out of nowhere, all sorts of zombies run out from literally every corner, as if they were deliberately camping the player.
Thats cause that is how the trigger volume is set up its on purpose.
 
i have no issue with stealth love it.. Can stealth attack volumes even. in fact many times a z has gone past me . They also go to the spot you were at when detected so simple rule move if you fail stealth.

every armour path has a anti to it so for a player to want to be 100% stealth they should just turn god mode on.
I was specifically talking about stealth in POIs. Stealth works correctly outdoors. And I'm not saying the player should be completely stealthy, but rather that the player inside a POI should be able to sneak around even in a trigger zone. Because trigger zones work regardless of the player's noise level. I know this is intentional, but it doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
 
However, I disagree with point 3. Storms are relatively rare and are designed to create extreme conditions, so let the zombies get stronger. A loss of vision will weaken them, which is not good.
I think if there was a setting to control zombie behavior during storms, it would be ideal.
 
Thats cause that is how the trigger volume is set up its on purpose.
Many people on YouTube complain specifically about stealth in POIs because of the Trigger Zones.

Personally, I have not cleared a single building without major encounters, even in situations where I did absolutely nothing to reveal myself and simply stepped into a Trigger Zone. Inside these zones, zombie behavior feels extremely strange.

For example, I can make a lot of noise inside a building, loot almost the entire POI, and nothing happens — no one attacks. But the moment I cross an invisible zone boundary, every zombie suddenly rushes at me.
 
I was specifically talking about stealth in POIs. Stealth works correctly outdoors. And I'm not saying the player should be completely stealthy, but rather that the player inside a POI should be able to sneak around even in a trigger zone. Because trigger zones work regardless of the player's noise level. I know this is intentional, but it doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
i was to talking bout pois..
Post automatically merged:

Many people on YouTube complain specifically about stealth in POIs because of the Trigger Zones.

Personally, I have not cleared a single building without major encounters, even in situations where I did absolutely nothing to reveal myself and simply stepped into a Trigger Zone. Inside these zones, zombie behavior feels extremely strange.

For example, I can make a lot of noise inside a building, loot almost the entire POI, and nothing happens — no one attacks. But the moment I cross an invisible zone boundary, every zombie suddenly rushes at me.
So all zombies have to be the same all pois have to be the same.. pretty boring imo..
 
i was to talking bout pois..
I recommend watching this video (even though it's not new) about trigger zones in attack mode. You'll see what I mean. The useful stuff starts at 3:25.
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So all zombies have to be the same all pois have to be the same.. pretty boring imo..
If this seems boring, it's best to fill it with random events. For example, zombie patrols, or some scream inside or behind a POI that could wake up a zombie, or anything. Otherwise, it turns into memorizing a location and clearing it through close combat or using only firearms.
 
Personally, I have not cleared a single building without major encounters, even in situations where I did absolutely nothing to reveal myself and simply stepped into a Trigger Zone. Inside these zones, zombie behavior feels extremely strange.

That sounds like an exaggeration. I've certainly cleared buildings with stealth, but not all of them are possible to do with 100% stealth.

Triggering and detection aren't the same thing, though the zone's placement and the zombie placement can make detection very likely.
 
That sounds like an exaggeration. I've certainly cleared buildings with stealth, but not all of them are possible to do with 100% stealth.

Triggering and detection aren't the same thing, though the zone's placement and the zombie placement can make detection very likely.
In fact, when you visit a Trigger Zone with attack mode enabled, all the zombies already know where you are, and stealth won't help you at all. Just watch the video I provided above.
 
It's a terminology thing. Trigger volumes are not Attack volumes.
English is not my native language, so I apologize if something is unclear.

If I understood correctly what you meant, I should clarify that in this post I was suggesting replacing all Trigger Zones — attacking ones, sleeper ones, any type — with zones that are responsible only for loading zombies and handling stealth logic differently.

The reason for this is that the game still seems to struggle with proper zombie loading inside POIs, and it still relies too heavily on guaranteed combat scenarios, even in cases where the player clears an area flawlessly without making mistakes.
 
I think and may be wrong, but you are combining the spawn volumes and the triggers.
What you are describing, is the way it was before. When you are stealthing have you ever
noticed the little red light on the cameras? Sometimes those are strategically placed causing
you to be spotted. I find a way around the area to break, or cover them.

Garbage, How much light, constant movement after hearing a zombie make the awareness
sound, and not waiting for it to time out, entering their vision which is 180' side to side.
All add up to being seen also. If a room or area is lit I black it out, meaning make or fix door,
place temp blocks over windows, blow out torches and candles. Some times as I recon a place
I do those things from the outside then enter. To make it as close to night as possible. Opening
and closing containers constantly before checking and clearing all adjacent rooms also raises
awareness, and lowers the stealth check.

Although there are some pois where I have seen, following the path or what I call the No No
zone, set you in the middle of a phase spawn area. But depending on how I approach I am either
detected or not. I have broken walls to go into a house and there was a zombie standing right there
with it's back to me, and I stealth killed it.

Some areas like Loot Rooms especially in higher tier loot areas, are built to be semi or anti stealth, or
that would be he only place players would hit, then say the game is too easy.

I have watched some streams, turned up my sound with headphones on, and said nope wouldn't have
done that.
 
English is not my native language, so I apologize if something is unclear.

If I understood correctly what you meant, I should clarify that in this post I was suggesting replacing all Trigger Zones — attacking ones, sleeper ones, any type — with zones that are responsible only for loading zombies and handling stealth logic differently.

The reason for this is that the game still seems to struggle with proper zombie loading inside POIs, and it still relies too heavily on guaranteed combat scenarios, even in cases where the player clears an area flawlessly without making mistakes.

Keep talking and we'll find a common language. :) It's pretty easy for me to conflate the different zombie volumes too. Stallionsden uses all of the variations far more than I do, plus I'm a little out of practice as work has been keeping me away from making more POIs. He might correct me if I say something wrong... :)

Term: Sleeper (or Zombie) Volume ... a 3D space where you place "sleepers" (usually zombies). There are different types of Zombie Volumes: Active, Passive, Attack, Trigger, and Wander. But trigger is special. I wouldn't call them a Sleeper Volume.

Active will place sleepers when you get within 4 blocks of the volume (horizontally) and if you're noisy you'll wake them. You see these a lot. They're really common, specially in lower tier POIs. I use them about 95% of the time. They're stealth friendly. That is, unless you enter them vertically. If you "drop" or "climb" into one, they place the zombies when you enter the volume, which can sometimes be right beside you. That placement is done for performance reasons so that you're not spawning in zombies on floors above and below you. I don't think vertical travel is stealth friendly, specially with ladders turning off stealth.

Passive I think will place the the zombies inactive, kind of like extra sleepy. IIRC, they can get activated by triggers. If you can get one of these to place without activating it's trigger, these zombies are easy meat to stealth. But if they trigger, they're probably what you hate.

Attack will place the zombies like normal, but when you enter the volume they will all be awakened. I don't think they know where you are but are alert to your presence. If they are near you they'll spot you right off. These are a complication for stealth. You usually have to disengage and come back to stealth them but if it is with a large area you might find they are active but don't see you.

Wander will place them like normal, but when you enter some/all of them will start to wander. If they're near you, they'll spot you and attack. Many players will see the zombies stand up (and not see you) and assume they woke them, but it isn't true and you can still sneak attack them if they didn't see you. I think these are best used in larger spaces so that the zombie can start wandering before you see it. I think these are fun stealth complications as you try to stealth those wandering without waking those that aren't.

A Trigger volume doesn't have zombies, IIRC. It just sends a trigger signal to whatever wants to receive it. That might be a passive volume of zombies that they want to wake up. But trigger volumes aren't the only thing that can send signals. Objects that you interact with can send signals too, such as doors, keyracks, and well more and more things in the game as the devs implement more and more.

Triggers can also trigger scripts, which can do a variety of things, including make waves of zombies.
 
I recommend watching this video (even though it's not new) about trigger zones in attack mode. You'll see what I mean. The useful stuff starts at 3:25.
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If this seems boring, it's best to fill it with random events. For example, zombie patrols, or some scream inside or behind a POI that could wake up a zombie, or anything. Otherwise, it turns into memorizing a location and clearing it through close combat or using only firearms.
that looks like a skill issue imo not a bad game mechanic
 
that looks like a skill issue imo not a bad game mechanic

Yeh, I don't think he quite defined an Attack volume correctly. They do all wake, but they don't necessarily know where you are. In his example at the 3:15 mark, he enters the volume and they wake, but the distant zombies don't see him. The close one does. Then he fires a gun and they all know where he is then. Plus, he's in a test world with a stealth value of 50, which is pathetic.

Then, back in the Church he says he has a "maxed out character" but his stealth value is 43, which is servicable for level 1, but he steps on a noise maker, his score jumps to 67 and they wake. Okay, its an attack volume, but if he had some stealth he could back out and regain stealth. Also, he didn't have to enter the volume. He could have shot the zombies with a bow before entering the volume and not awoken them, but for some reason he keeps closing and enters the volume. He just had to get within 4 blocks of the volume to get them to be placed. Well, I can tell you why he kept closing... he's not carrying a stealth weapon. He can't bullseye a zombie from outside the volume with the SHOTGUN he's carrying.

The video is also A20... ancient history.

I love stealth, but you actually have to be sneaky. "Crouch and Go" only gets you so far. It works in those "face roll" situations when you can roll your face on the keyboard and defeat everything. But if you start to take out blocks, like in that church, open up lines of fire, keep your distance, listen for your own footsteps, stay out of the light, watch your stealth meter, get that stealth meter down to around 4, and definitely keep from stepping on the noise makers, then you can stealth stuff.

I feel like this is a video for the "tell me you don't know stealth without saying you don't know stealth" category.
 
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