PC Stealth, monster closets and clear quests

[hiemfire]

Should we add a disclaimer that assures players that no sprites were actually harmed during the course of playing the game?

I probably should have said as well that using single player video games as an outlet for sadistic tendencies is better than doing the same things in real life.

 

[Laz Man]

Boss rooms are obvious before you enter them and games built around having boss room encounters have pre-encounter prep tools (like ammo and health top offs before the boss encounter), in room tools to defeat the encounter (ledges that you can knock the boss off of, reflectable attacks, toggles that mitigate something the boss is doing, etc.), and/or are built around being dealt with by pre-prepped groups with the game being up front that a group is required.

In 7d2d stealth breaking isn't a "boss room" mechanic though. It is someone wanting to tell an interactive story with the POI they designed and either not considering how their set up will interact with the stealth system TFP has implemented or wanting to force the players to experience their POI exactly the way they wanted with no option to avoid their magical worlds' traps...

There are actually many boss rooms that you have exactly described.  Many of the final loot rooms of quest POIs are designed with areas for the player to take advantage of.  (E.g. a door to open/close, pallets to jump on, ladders to use, etc.)

 

[unholyjoe]

Should we add a disclaimer that assures players that no sprites were actually harmed during the course of playing the game?

i plead guilty... i drank 2 sprites and a dr pepper in the process.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Probably too late for 7 days, but it may help to get feedback from people their ideal stealth gameplay and what other games out there have best implemented it.

There's alot of stealth games out there and I don't believe even the most stealth focused allowed you to silently beat boss room encounters for example.

The Hitman series is probably the one game I have played where stealth was a main focus of the game 100% throughout.

May I introduce "Splinter Cell" to you?
Pretty much the best stealth games I have played (only up to Chaos Theory though, since I am old)

And they still hold up to this day.
Stealth has its pros and cons.

And once you mess with the pros without giving the cons some adjustment as well, it just doesnt feel right.

That is what sleeper wake ups are right now.
You can sneak so well outside, then BOOM everything changes once the fire... station gets looted.

It is not only bad for stealth, it is also game-logic-breaking.
You have inventory slots. That is a rule. Everything weighs the same.
That is an ingame rule.
If you suddenly had an item that only Agility could carry, that instead uses a weightbad for some reason, it breaks this whole system.
 

If my sneak is at close to 0, I should not get detected. (make sneaking overall harder I would like that)
But stepping on one specific block, or standing still inside a room and suddenly all hell breaks lose for no discernable reason is not just bad. It is the worst.

You know why nobody complained about garbagepiles making sounds:

1: Is it clear what happens?
Yes. The detection metre is visible, the trash is visible, it gives audio feedback and the reaction makes sense as well.
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
Yes. Either don't walk on it or destroy it. Or you can even buy perks to make it even less effective.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The latter.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
Yes. Everything you do makes sounds, so does a stepping on a pile of garbage. Nothing feels out of place (except for sometimes the placement but honestly that is a minor thing)

And now do these questions with the sleeper volumes:

1: Is it clear what happens?
No. They just randomly wake up once you are inside the room. Your stealthmeter hasn't changed, so why?
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
No. Most of them are behind cover, so you need to enter and fight them. Sometimes you even need to drop into a locked room, fighting in closed quarters with an agility build.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The former. There is no way to avoid this except to avoid POIs. That would mean avoiding quests and the best loot.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
No.
Everything stealthrelated in the whole rest of the game is based on that indicator. Every perk affects this indicator. Every zombie can be snuk up on to 1m if you are silent enough. So why do these Z's wake up?

Because TFPs want moments for their players. And that is it.

 

[Laz Man]

May I introduce "Splinter Cell" to you?
Pretty much the best stealth games I have played (only up to Chaos Theory though, since I am old)

And they still hold up to this day.
Stealth has its pros and cons.

And once you mess with the pros without giving the cons some adjustment as well, it just doesnt feel right.

That is what sleeper wake ups are right now.
You can sneak so well outside, then BOOM everything changes once the fire... station gets looted.

It is not only bad for stealth, it is also game-logic-breaking.
You have inventory slots. That is a rule. Everything weighs the same.
That is an ingame rule.
If you suddenly had an item that only Agility could carry, that instead uses a weightbad for some reason, it breaks this whole system.
 

If my sneak is at close to 0, I should not get detected. (make sneaking overall harder I would like that)
But stepping on one specific block, or standing still inside a room and suddenly all hell breaks lose for no discernable reason is not just bad. It is the worst.

You know why nobody complained about garbagepiles making sounds:

1: Is it clear what happens?
Yes. The detection metre is visible, the trash is visible, it gives audio feedback and the reaction makes sense as well.
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
Yes. Either don't walk on it or destroy it. Or you can even buy perks to make it even less effective.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The latter.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
Yes. Everything you do makes sounds, so does a stepping on a pile of garbage. Nothing feels out of place (except for sometimes the placement but honestly that is a minor thing)

And now do these questions with the sleeper volumes:

1: Is it clear what happens?
No. They just randomly wake up once you are inside the room. Your stealthmeter hasn't changed, so why?
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
No. Most of them are behind cover, so you need to enter and fight them. Sometimes you even need to drop into a locked room, fighting in closed quarters with an agility build.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The former. There is no way to avoid this except to avoid POIs. That would mean avoiding quests and the best loot.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
No.
Everything stealthrelated in the whole rest of the game is based on that indicator. Every perk affects this indicator. Every zombie can be snuk up on to 1m if you are silent enough. So why do these Z's wake up?

Because TFPs want moments for their players. And that is it.

Stealth definitely has its quirks.  I doubt it will ever be splinter cell level greatness but hopefully it gets more love before gold to make it feel better.  At least now you can stealth an attack volume to a certain degree so things are st least improving.

 

[hiemfire]

You know why nobody complained about garbagepiles making sounds:

There was one guy/gal a couple of years ago that did, along with complaining about how heavy armor negatively impacted sneaking since they "had to use heavy armor" due to them playing on Insane/Nightmare settings...

 

[Xandyr78]

May I introduce "Splinter Cell" to you?
Pretty much the best stealth games I have played (only up to Chaos Theory though, since I am old)

And they still hold up to this day.
Stealth has its pros and cons.

And once you mess with the pros without giving the cons some adjustment as well, it just doesnt feel right.

That is what sleeper wake ups are right now.
You can sneak so well outside, then BOOM everything changes once the fire... station gets looted.

It is not only bad for stealth, it is also game-logic-breaking.
You have inventory slots. That is a rule. Everything weighs the same.
That is an ingame rule.
If you suddenly had an item that only Agility could carry, that instead uses a weightbad for some reason, it breaks this whole system.
 

If my sneak is at close to 0, I should not get detected. (make sneaking overall harder I would like that)
But stepping on one specific block, or standing still inside a room and suddenly all hell breaks lose for no discernable reason is not just bad. It is the worst.

You know why nobody complained about garbagepiles making sounds:

1: Is it clear what happens?
Yes. The detection metre is visible, the trash is visible, it gives audio feedback and the reaction makes sense as well.
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
Yes. Either don't walk on it or destroy it. Or you can even buy perks to make it even less effective.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The latter.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
Yes. Everything you do makes sounds, so does a stepping on a pile of garbage. Nothing feels out of place (except for sometimes the placement but honestly that is a minor thing)

And now do these questions with the sleeper volumes:

1: Is it clear what happens?
No. They just randomly wake up once you are inside the room. Your stealthmeter hasn't changed, so why?
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
No. Most of them are behind cover, so you need to enter and fight them. Sometimes you even need to drop into a locked room, fighting in closed quarters with an agility build.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The former. There is no way to avoid this except to avoid POIs. That would mean avoiding quests and the best loot.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
No.
Everything stealthrelated in the whole rest of the game is based on that indicator. Every perk affects this indicator. Every zombie can be snuk up on to 1m if you are silent enough. So why do these Z's wake up?

Because TFPs want moments for their players. And that is it.

Can I just thank you for this?  I tried to explain/express this in my own comment on the previous page, but you've done so more clearly and concisely than I did, and I very, VERY much appreciate your efforts.

So.  Thank you.  Very, very much.

 

[Niil945]

If you can stealth 90% of it but must openly attack 10% of it, THAT’S masochistic?

My last experience with stealth was in early A19 so I haven't tested the current version of things.

When still learning the POI's I would say it's very frustrating and it's self defeating to have to run back through a large POI banging on walls and looking for sleepers that are hidden in crevices and behind panels after spending almost a full game day sneaking through it. I could run those same poi's in half the time without stealth. I remember playing before they added the dots at the end when only a few remained and after. The problem was that some of the larger poi's had (at the time) so many hidden sleepers that the notification wouldn't show because there were too many alive still that were very easy to miss. Early to mid game when running T1-T4 POI's that's not too bad, but it's pretty terrible when running the large T5's. At the time I just couldn't justify the point investment for the ability to less effectively clear POI's than other builds. It's already slower than just blazing through with guns without having to backtrack to find sleepers and when it does happen that's basically a POI I could have ran and completed when having to rerun an entire large building. Beyond just being slower doing it this way also requires 10 points and specific gear that's meaningless on horde night.

But regarding the varying complaints, it doesn't sound contradictory to me at all because those experiences are based on triggers in specific POI's of different shapes and sizes that were built at different times with different design styles and different points in time that people tried stealth builds. The Crack-A-Book was redesigned but the factories that I've run so far are the same. Not sure about the other skyscrapers or if there are any new ones that I haven't experienced yet. The old Crack-A-Book was one of the easier ones to stealth but the new one looks like bad news to try it in. I can say right now I don't know how it is trying to run a tier 5 POI with stealth in A20 because I'm not at a point where I can freely respec due to costs but once I get a little further I'll probably tinker around.

 

[Ripflex]

I'll chime in on my views of stealth, how it was when I built a character 100% on nightly stealth runs, and now.  I think around alpha 16 - 18 I occasionally will build a stealth character when I was a bit late joining my group and their roles (farmer, cook, builder and looter) were assigned - so I made my Stealthy night looter with nightvision goggles, light armoured with bow, knife and silenced pistol.  Back then I can solo at night and do melee takedowns and silenced ranged killing with most the zeds in sleep mode.  It took a little longer but I wasn't being rushed, hurt and making a lot of noise.  Was it OP, I didn't think so - it was simply a different playing method that few players like to play - I would consider it OP if EVERYONE played the meta - but they didn't.  Now, stealth doesn't work as well at a point not worth it even if you adapt and memorize the Spawn triggers and back peddle and hide to shake off the zeds hunting you.  If that's a balanced way of stealth, wouldn't it be a cheaper investment to go heavy armor and heavy guns - walk in room fire a shot and go to a kill zone and kill the Zeds running in a straight line to you - it's faster.  It reminds me the method the people in the Walking Dead do after a year surviving the Zombie Apocalyspe, they just get bored, walk in a house yell and bang on the door and kill whatever zombie pokes it's head out ?

 

[Roland]

Now, stealth doesn't work as well at a point not worth it even if you adapt and memorize the Spawn triggers and back peddle and hide to shake off the zeds hunting you.  If that's a balanced way of stealth, wouldn't it be a cheaper investment to go heavy armor and heavy guns - walk in room fire a shot and go to a kill zone and kill the Zeds running in a straight line to you - it's faster.

yeah but…

it was simply a different playing method that few players like to play

Some people make decisions based on what is most efficient and some based on how they like to play. Stealth doesn’t have to compete with the efficiency of a machine gun in clearing POIs. It’s perfectly okay if there is only a small fringe group who plays stealth because they enjoy stealth. 
 

 

[BarryTGash]

Here's an early morning pre-caffeine idea (like we need more ideas for new mechanics complicating things, ha!): agitation level

The more zombies one sneaks past, the higher the agitation level of zombies becomes; in their soupy smooth-brained minds something is not right making them more alert and sensitive to sound and movement. They start to groan, moan and shuffle more and more in their partial hibernation (providing the sneaker audio cues that they're increasingly pushing their luck). Agitation decays over time whilst not performing agitation inducing actions (eg. remaining still, crouching, silent in the dark), killing a zombie removes that zombie's agitation influence from the volume/POI total (but maybe adds a small kick to the surrounding zombie's agitation first?). Consider it a micro-heatmap for a single POI. No need for RNG failure - your actions dictate everything.

The point is that stealth could be effective without resorting to triggered events (you could still have the occasional scripted jump scare), but perhaps not for an entire POI unless you're willing to spend considerably longer running that POI (depending on size? but I suppose considering that zombies in further volumes won't be spawned in yet it might not be an issue... except multiplayer?) . It's like considering stealth to be a slowly regenerating resource. It is depleted but given time, can be recouped. Clearly, in huge or multilevel POIs, it wouldn't make sense for the top floor to become agitated by shenanigans on the ground floor (again less issue in singleplayer as those volumes won't have spawned yet) so a radius of influence around the player and already agitated zombies would be necessary (attenuated by the inverse square law). The following graphic, being one of the first loosely related examples I found, sort of shows what the heatmap might look like:

Spoiler

Lots of issues I haven't considered - eg. how would it affect feral sense or vice versa? would day time get an agitation penalty and night time a bonus? - but just a thought...

 

[Niil945]

Some people make decisions based on what is most efficient and some based on how they like to play. Stealth doesn’t have to compete with the efficiency of a machine gun in clearing POIs. It’s perfectly okay if there is only a small fringe group who plays stealth because they enjoy stealth. 
 

It's not an exclusionary choice. There are many gray areas in between those two and even combinations of those two. There's a difference between being as efficient as machine gun clearing POI's and so inefficient that it's not worth it even if you like the playstyle. Some POI's before were in the latter category, some were in the former. I can't say which end of the spectrum A20 changes are as I haven't tried it. I thought A19 stealth (early on, not sure what changes there have been since that experience) was okay after memorizing each of the T5 POI's so that I knew exactly where to go and what to kill so I wouldn't miss anything. I think, if done well, stealth is safer and thus should present more risks when someone screws up and it should take longer. It's 10 skill points but it's also reducing the need for medical supplies and ammo that could be saved for horde night. A20 is different in that I haven't even had to worry about ammo crafting, so much of it drops that we haven't even had our miners farm nitrate, coal, or lead yet for our group of 5 and about half the group uses guns exclusively.

That's yet another thing that stealth had going for it before that doesn't seem to matter currently in A20, pressure to be conservative with ammo unless mass farming it to freely use. I go into a T4+ and come out with loads of ammo, far more than I use clearing it even if I use guns. We have 5 players, 2 miners, and they're constantly asking me what we need and we're at day ~70 and I haven't had to tell them once that we need supplies for ammo.

 

[ElCabong]

 there's nothing worse than spending an hour and a half going through a clear mission only to discover at very end you haven't got it all cleared and you don't have any idea where are the z is because it's not showing up on your radar. 

This is why I don't do level 5 missions. Now we're talking 3 or more hours in a very complicated zone.

For some reason the cleaning room in the missile complex always has two Z's in it that never show up on my radar. 

I'm not complaining about z's evading stealth. I'm complaining ending a very complicated dungeon with no idea where the hell they are. 

 

[meganoth]

May I introduce "Splinter Cell" to you?
Pretty much the best stealth games I have played (only up to Chaos Theory though, since I am old)

And they still hold up to this day.
Stealth has its pros and cons.

And once you mess with the pros without giving the cons some adjustment as well, it just doesnt feel right.

That is what sleeper wake ups are right now.
You can sneak so well outside, then BOOM everything changes once the fire... station gets looted.

It is not only bad for stealth, it is also game-logic-breaking.
You have inventory slots. That is a rule. Everything weighs the same.
That is an ingame rule.
If you suddenly had an item that only Agility could carry, that instead uses a weightbad for some reason, it breaks this whole system.
 

If my sneak is at close to 0, I should not get detected. (make sneaking overall harder I would like that)
But stepping on one specific block, or standing still inside a room and suddenly all hell breaks lose for no discernable reason is not just bad. It is the worst.

You know why nobody complained about garbagepiles making sounds:

1: Is it clear what happens?
Yes. The detection metre is visible, the trash is visible, it gives audio feedback and the reaction makes sense as well.
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
Yes. Either don't walk on it or destroy it. Or you can even buy perks to make it even less effective.
3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The latter.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
Yes. Everything you do makes sounds, so does a stepping on a pile of garbage. Nothing feels out of place (except for sometimes the placement but honestly that is a minor thing)

And now do these questions with the sleeper volumes:

1: Is it clear what happens?
No. They just randomly wake up once you are inside the room. Your stealthmeter hasn't changed, so why?
2: Does it have a reasonable counterplay?
No. Most of them are behind cover, so you need to enter and fight them. Sometimes you even need to drop into a locked room, fighting in closed quarters with an agility build.

Yes and no. The trap rooms are poison for INT and PER players as well, only STR and FOR players can be reasonably sure that they have the firepower if it is survivable at all. 

But reasonable counterplay was already mentioned in the discussions in A19. And now with only some zombies waking up there may be another possibilty: If only one or two zombies wake up, you may be able to kill it or them with a crossbow or bow so you stay in stealth for the rest of them

If that doesn't work or you wake up too many, sure, you actually have to run and try to restealth or use parkour to get to a safe position or use your gun to actually deal with them, or a combination of them. Even then, if you succeed in running without waking the rest you may have to deal only with one or two instead of all.

Where I have my doubts for example is if you only wake up 1 or 2 and then use a silenced pistol to get rid of them, will I have a good chance to not wake up the others with high stealth? I also have my doubts that the 10% mentioned by Roland is the reality.

3: Does it force the player into a situation or does it need the player to make a mistake?
The former. There is no way to avoid this except to avoid POIs. That would mean avoiding quests and the best loot.
4: Does it fit with all the ingame logic?
No.

With the ingame logic of random events happening? We could make the argument that the random dog horde on day 3 is as unlogical, unforseeable and unfair to the player as an auto-aggro room

Everything stealthrelated in the whole rest of the game is based on that indicator. Every perk affects this indicator. Every zombie can be snuk up on to 1m if you are silent enough. So why do these Z's wake up?

Because TFPs want moments for their players. And that is it.

Since we now have the tech in the game that zombies can wake up based on a random roll, I would suggest to TFP this: Make all attack volumes have a chance to wake up zombies depending on RNG and your stealth. And add a single base value to each room representing its "danger" so that rooms with higher danger more easily wake up zombies. The advantage: The randomness can happen everywhere and the player has to accept that there is nothing 100% deterministic happening here, just like in reality. He can only influence chances

You would have lots of normal rooms where the chance for any zombie at all waking fairly to really low depending on stealth. And "dangerous" rooms where often more than half the zombies will wake up even with highest stealth. And everything in between-rooms.

 

[SG1-09]

Interesting topic.

I don't really know how far stealth works in the game but yes, clearly the way POIs are designed makes sometimes stealth incompatible. The sleeper volumes are made to control Z spawn and avoid overloading a POI and this system lead many players towards well-prepared exploration gameplay, overriding confrontation and anticipating a potential floor or ceiling collapse with many sleepers.

And I understand this system can lead in the wrong way for stealth players who, during an elimination quest, no longer trigger volumes of "cleverly" hidden sleepers.
But IMO, if the majority of the POI has been dealt with stealth eliminations, the player can afford to make some noise at the very end of the quest.

I've read in this thread about an idea about a system that could reveal the location of remaining Z as time runs out, while the player doesn't find them. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. In the meantime it makes me think of the way sleepers are managed with auto-triggers and I tested the Drive-in POI because it's quite interesting to understand how the sleeper volumes work. During "restore power" quest (so at night), the first part "forces" the player to go through the place where the 1st door can be unlocked and, fatally, zombies located on the opposite side of the player cross the whole Drive-in courtyard (i.e. from far away) to reach the trigger zone. It works with a numbered "ID" that you can choose in the editor (I don't remember if it existed in A19 ). And then at the very end of the POI, 3 empty sleeper volumes just have an ID that matches all the other existing sleeper volumes, which triggers all the sleepers in the POI that the player haven't seen before.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

[...too much stuff...]

Okay so you said running away... what about traprooms you have to fall into to trigger the Z's?
And if one irradiated feral feral (what are these big guys called now?) wakes up, you are screwed. I play with friends on only warrior and one spawned right next to me and nearly twoshotted me, even though I was wearing good armor (not playing stealth anymore until this gets fixed )

I will FIGHT for the removal of the early dog horde till I breathe my last breath.
New players just die for no reason, veterans dread it and hope they can get enough ammunition in time and since they understand supports now, you cant even pillar up anymore and shoot them with arrows!

Also sure. With enough balancing, making it as unnoticable as possible is an option. But if you argue "hey if we make the chance REALLY low its not that bad anymore" why have it at all? It doesn't offer anyone anything except TFPs' feeling of "we give them moments to remember and streamers will scream, so publicity" i guess.
Either you don't care because you have big guns or you hate them. I have not yet seen someone going preparation (stealth/int) say "oh man I love it when they randomly wake up! So tense!"

And I say it again the "its realistic because in real life you can't be perfect" argument does not fly in a survival rpg, except it is made to be unpredictable. Like developing an infection. But then there needs to be counterplay to that. Use better medicine, treat it with something you gathered earlier...
Give me one counterplay to the hidden drop in Z's that just wake up once you land.
You can't run, because you will need to open the exit first and the Z's are already awake.


If they reduce wake up sleepers by >95%... whatever.
I will still say it is stupid, but at least it does not invalidate a whole playstyle anymore.
But I seriously doubt they will do that. Because every POI is built around these sleeper volumes.
So either they scrap the mechanic completely, or they leave it because MM played it once and he thinks its fine.

#sorryfortheagression. But this is just such a glaring flaw that is super easy to fix, and yet mods and devs seem to think this is totally fine.
 

 

[Matt115]

And I say it again the "its realistic because in real life you can't be perfect" argument does not fly in a survival rpg, except it is made to be unpredictable. Like developing an infection. But then there needs to be counterplay to that. Use better medicine, treat it with something you gathered earlier...
Give me one counterplay to the hidden drop in Z's that just wake up once you land.
You can't run, because you will need to open the exit first and the Z's are already awake.

If they reduce wake up sleepers by >95%... whatever.
I will still say it is stupid, but at least it does not invalidate a whole playstyle anymore.
But I seriously doubt they will do that. Because every POI is built around these sleeper volumes.
So either they scrap the mechanic completely, or they leave it because MM played it once and he thinks its fine.

#sorryfortheagression. But this is just such a glaring flaw that is super easy to fix, and yet mods and devs seem to think this is totally fine.

Developing of infection can predictable -  that's how  we can learn which type of illes you have.

but i agree - reducing would be good thing

 

[theFlu]

And I say it again the "its realistic because in real life you can't be perfect" argument does not fly in a survival rpg

Whaat? You don't long for the days when your character would randomly roll an ankle walking down a hill?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Whaat? You don't long for the days when your character would randomly roll an ankle walking down a hill?

Hey! Don't come at me with that sassy snark!
If you ran down a hill full speed, you'd probably break more than just an ankle.
So shut up and love the drama like the overlords have comanded you to do.

 

[Roland]

#sorryfortheagression. But this is just such a glaring flaw that is super easy to fix, and yet mods and devs seem to think this is totally fine.

#sorryithinkthisistotallyfine.