PC Standard Ammo Vs HP

[Syphon583]

Wasn't it that AP ammo does more damage against armored targets but actually less than even normal ammo against unarmored ones

If that's the case, there's nothing in the game that explains that. And it would be pretty stupid, tbh. Someone who is more familiar with the code would have to answer that, but I've never felt there is a damage penalty for using AP ammo and the stats and description clearly indicate an overall damage increase.

 

[Riamus]

Considering lead is mineable and brass is not, I've never seen it as a disadvantage. To each their own, though. The big thing people seem to be forgetting is the penetration factor. While the overall damage increase is a small percentage, the ammos ability to penetrate armor and multiple targets if adequately perked is reason enough to sacrifice double the lead. For me and my playstyle, AP Ammo is definitely worth it. Once fully perked, I'm regularly killing 3 targets with a single bullet where with normal ammo, it would have taken 3+.

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

 

[Syphon583]

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

That's a great point and I should clarify. I almost exclusively use AP rounds on horde nights where I have designed my base in a way that lines up the zombies for optimal headshots. On those nights, I use very little ammo as I am regularly taking out multiple targets with a single shot. Of course, when armored targets like demos roll up, those will take multiple shots. I've never done the math, but I'm willing to bet that I still end up expending less bullet tips as I otherwise would have using regular ammo.

Outside of horde nights, I stick with regular 7.62 unless I have an insane surplus of lead which usually happens by late game and I'm regularly clearing out T5s.

Again, it works great for that playstyle. I'm not arguing that all players should be using it exclusively.

 

[Krougal]

I guess the question is what your average kills are... are you maintaining a kill average of over 2 zombies per bullet (or perhaps better to say 2 hits per bullet as that's a better indication)?  Even if you regularly hit 3 at a time, your average could be far lower because it's more common to have them not lined up except on horde night (depending on your base).  If you're only using it for horde night with a base designed to line them up, then it would be more useful to you.  If you're using it all the time, it is likely a waste of the bullet tips.

As far as lead vs brass, I find plenty of ammo that I rarely have to craft it, so brass isn't an issue.  That means basically no time to craft regular ammo vs a lot of time to mine lead to craft turret ammo.  In short, I no longer use the robotic turrets because of this.

Yeah, I'm sick of mining lead, there is very little in loot anymore. OTOH, the pair of robotic turrets absolutely shred @%$#, and I have taken to using the AP ammo lately, since I seem to still get plenty of iron out of my lead mines. I can walk into an infestation POI, plop down the turrets and go about looting while they do all the work. Horde night I can also be pretty lazy as long as I keep reloading them, but I go through boxes and boxes of ammo then.

Otherwise I find plenty of ammo and brass, but the point still stands that you cannot mine brass, so it is a hard limit; most of us are probably just not hitting it in A21. It was a real thing in earlier alphas.

 

[Uncle Al]

Wasn't it that AP ammo does more damage against armored targets but actually less than even normal ammo against unarmored ones,

and HP was most effective against unarmored, but does less damage (than normal) against armored?

At least that's how I remember it, and therefore never used the different types.

Because you don't always get more total damage out of HP rounds, it heavily depends on how many zombies of the "corresponding" type you hit.

And reloading/changing ammo type and/or weapons for the right ammo and then "cherrypick" single zombies especially out of a group does have a too heavy impact on damage output over time.

I'd be happy if someone could clarify this a bit more, I have to admit my info/thoughts/decision might be from an outdated alpha and stuff was redesigned til now, I just did never reconsider.

This used to be the case but it was rebalanced, which is why 'Hollow Point' got renamed to 'Hi Power' for clarity.

Hi Power ammo is now all round better than normal, as it does 5% more damage and is no worse against armour. AP ammo is better than Normal or Hi Power as it does 10% more damage than Normal, gets enhanced armour penetration, penetrates at least one target and gets extra target penetration when fired from a rifle (not an assault rifle) if you're perked into Penetrator.

As far as I can see it's now a pretty simple progression of AP is better than HP which is better than Normal, if you ignore manufacturing costs.

I generally can't see much point in HP ammo but as lead is usually your most abundant resource when ammo crafting, it might be worth it occasionally. HP takes twice the lead to craft compared to Normal, but doesn't cost more brass or gunpowder.

 

[BFT2020]

I do want to point out that all weapons do get a boost from Penetrator perk, as it adds additional armor penetration for any range weapon (and spears).  So a point in Penetrator gives you a 10% increase in armor penetration for all guns (20% for spears).

So AP ammo starts with a 50% armor penetration that you can increase with the Penetrator perk.  Max would be 70%.  Maxed out at Perk Level 3.

Spears, if you were to max out Penetrator perk, would give you a 100% armor penetration.  Maxed out at Perk Level 4

 

[OneManStanding]

Considering lead is mineable and brass is not...

I can see a point there, but brass is hardly in short supply either. Even if we run out of cars in our town and the nearby cities, we've still got Dukes we can melt down from selling stuff - we can make high-level gear from the bits and pieces we get after a horde night and sell them. All things being equal we can make twice as much regular ammo or half as much High Power. If I can put it this way, each 7.62 bullet does represents 47 damage; you can fire two bullets for a grand total of 94 damage, or use that second bullet tip to make one High Power which does only does 55 damage by itself and loose 39 potential damage of the second bullet.

 

[Riamus]

I do want to point out that all weapons do get a boost from Penetrator perk, as it adds additional armor penetration for any range weapon (and spears).  So a point in Penetrator gives you a 10% increase in armor penetration for all guns (20% for spears).

So AP ammo starts with a 50% armor penetration that you can increase with the Penetrator perk.  Max would be 70%.  Maxed out at Perk Level 3.

Spears, if you were to max out Penetrator perk, would give you a 100% armor penetration.  Maxed out at Perk Level 4

Thank you for pointing out that it works for spears.  I never read the description that closely and didn't realize it worked for them.  I'll have to look into using it more. 

 

[Uncle Al]

I can see a point there, but brass is hardly in short supply either. Even if we run out of cars in our town and the nearby cities, we've still got Dukes we can melt down from selling stuff - we can make high-level gear from the bits and pieces we get after a horde night and sell them. All things being equal we can make twice as much regular ammo or half as much High Power. If I can put it this way, each 7.62 bullet does represents 47 damage; you can fire two bullets for a grand total of 94 damage, or use that second bullet tip to make one High Power which does only does 55 damage by itself and loose 39 potential damage of the second bullet.

If it's lead that's limiting your ammo crafting, then Hi Power is almost certainly a bad call.

Looked on as total resources to make a 7.62 bullet, Standard comes in at 16 and Hi Power at 19.


Lead


2


4


Clay


2


3


Brass


6


6


Coal


3


3


Nitrate


3


3




So you don't make twice as much regular ammo as Hi Power, it's more like 20% more. If, and it's a huge if, gathering all five resources is about equal work for you/your team.

5% extra damage could be significant, notably because of the increased decapitation chance. There's a check of damage against target health in addition to the flat percentage chance from perk stats, so you'll see more one hit kills from Hi Power even if the extra 5% damage doesn't generally affect the number of hits required to kill from aggregate damage.

Again, I don't craft much Hi Power at all, but I favour perception builds that love AP ammo and have brass to spare. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying Hi Power is clearly underpowered currently, although I suspect it might be.

The biggest factor for me in not using HP is it won't stack with regular ammo, and I seem to pretty much only find regular ammo as loot. If, at high loot stage, a significant portion of looted ammo was HP I'd probably start using it more often.

 

[BFT2020]

The biggest factor for me in not using HP is it won't stack with regular ammo, and I seem to pretty much only find regular ammo as loot. If, at high loot stage, a significant portion of looted ammo was HP I'd probably start using it more often.

Unless the game is modded, you will never find AP or HP ammo as loot.  You will only get it via crafting, trader award, or buying it directly from the trader.  For some reason, it does not exist as a lootable item in the game.

I was going to say at first what level you could find it, then realized that the reason I was finding it in my game was I specifically added those types of ammo to the loot tables.  So when I been playing, I do find AP and HP ammo that I save up and use in-game.

 

[Callum123456789]

I personally wouldn't recommend them the 10% extra damage they provide is rather too little for the cost ap on the other hand is much better as it has unique properties unlike only doing more damage (which it does 20% rather than 10%)

 

[OneManStanding]

Lead


2


4


Clay


2


3


Brass


6


6


Coal


3


3


Nitrate


3


3

That is a VERY interesting way to look at the problem  Given full 6000-stacks of each resource, the limiting factor would always be brass and not lead - either way you couldn't make more than 1000 rounds. I'm tempted to see HP as maybe a better option... However, the damage improvement remains fairly miserly for the HP rounds. The irradiated zombies are boasting around 500 health -- that's 10-11 rounds per kill for standard versus 9-10 rounds for AP.

 

[Krougal]

That is a VERY interesting way to look at the problem  Given full 6000-stacks of each resource, the limiting factor would always be brass and not lead - either way you couldn't make more than 1000 rounds. I'm tempted to see HP as maybe a better option... However, the damage improvement remains fairly miserly for the HP rounds. The irradiated zombies are boasting around 500 health -- that's 10-11 rounds per kill for standard versus 9-10 rounds for AP.

Yeah, not enough bang for the extra buck. Maybe on nightmare they do better, or are you already there I forget?

 

[binf_shinana]

本投稿の本来の議論内容とはずれるかもしれませんが、あなたが毎日BMHを実施し、かつ多くのゾンビを倒したいという欲求をお持ちだという前提に立って考えます。
その場合、防衛拠点の構造を「はしごにゾンビを誘導し、はしごを登る彼らの頭上から撃つ」ようなタイプに変更することを推奨します。
これはほぼ常にヘッドショットが可能なため、弾丸の消費量は1/2～1/3に減少します。
また、AP弾が非常に有効に働くようになるため、さらに効率が上がります。この場合、通常弾を使うよりもAP弾を使うほうが資源的にも効率がよくなるでしょう（すべての弾丸をクラフトする場合）。
撃った弾丸が地面を掘ってしまう問題については、足元を非常に硬いブロックにするか、弾丸が通過するフレームブロックを用いて対処します。
グリッチのような拠点が嫌いと仮定しても、ゾンビがはしごを登って生存者を襲うのは自然なことなので、納得できる範囲ではないでしょうか。

(google translation)

This may be off topic from the original discussion of this post, but I will assume that you do BMH every day and have a desire to kill as many zombies as possible.
In that case, we recommend changing the structure of the defense base to a type that ``leads zombies to the ladder and shoots them from above as they climb the ladder.''
This reduces bullet consumption by 1/2-1/3, as headshots are almost always possible.
Also, AP bullets will work very effectively, making it even more efficient. In this case, it will be more resource efficient to use AP bullets than regular bullets (if all bullets are crafted).
To solve the problem of bullets digging into the ground, you can either use a very hard block under your feet or use a frame block for the bullet to pass through.
Even if you don't like Glitch-like bases, it's still natural for zombies to climb up ladders and attack survivors, so it's understandable.

 

[OneManStanding]

Maybe on nightmare they do better, or are you already there I forget?

We're on Insane - as high as it goes as far as I can see. Fully expected the zombies to stomp us flat -- and they nearly did on the second night, it was the most damage my castle sustained! But we had the resources to rebuilt it and go again. And again. And Again. No traps or anything, just concrete bars to hold them up at every corner. Between us we're using up around 4000 rounds of 7.62 and 1500 rounds of shotgun ammo a night, maybe 300 or so magnum. We started this lark somewhere around night 60 but this is night 90 and we're still holding our own. The zombies seem to have pretty much hit their own limit. We're thinking about turning off the Horde Nights and going back to doing POIs to see how the zombies are like in those situations.

We recommend changing the structure of the defense base...

At the start we had a base which relied upon zombie pathing behaviour -- but using a walkway instead of a ladder. I wanted something that would be awesome to defend and be awesome even when it came crashing down around us, something the zombies could really attack, which is why we went for this base:  



We've modified it a bit since this picture was taken, but you get the idea