PC Stamina, Health, Food, Water logic, or lack thereof

[Roland]

Roland, with all due respect, I think you are reading what you think I am saying rather than what I am actually saying. Please quote me where I claimed that you can't chop down a tree without resting.

Perhaps it was the way you organized and worded your feedback. I read this to mean that what you typed applied to other games but not 7 Days to die. So:

Start with a modest pool of Stamina-- Other games but not 7 Days

Enough to chop down a few trees-- Other games but not 7 Days

Grow it with attribute points-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina pool never gimped by effects-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina affected by player action but then immediately refills-- Other games but not 7 Days

How most other survival games do it:

Stamina

You start out with a modest pool of stamina (but enough to chop a few trees down) and you grow it with attribute points. The pool of stamina is never gimped by any other effects. Your stamina is only affected by you drawing from it to do specific things that require stamina, and then immediately starts to refill when you stop or slow down to a walk.

If I interpreted this incorrectly then I apologize. But that is the quote I was referencing.

In my humble opinion, this is a failure on the devs part to understand the core gripe which is that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina, but because it is tied to stamina, food and drink should at least not start damaging the stamina pool straight away (at 99% satiated or hydrated). Adding another 50 wasn't the obvious way to solve the problem. The obvious way would have been to lower the point at which the damage starts, for example when you only have 25% left of your food / drink.

The devs didn't fail to understand the gripe that food and drink shouldn't be tied to stamina and integrated into one bar. They just disagree with it. I personally really like the current system and appreciate the fact that I can eat when at 90 and know that none of my food will be wasted. I'm not opposed to the system you propose but it would require separating out the hunger bar from the stamina bar and I know for a fact they are done with the bars. It's not even a topic for discussion any more in the internal chat.

So given the current system is THE SYSTEM with hunger and stamina integrated into one bar I think the way they did it works great. You get that delay before your stamina starts to degrade and you get the assurance that none of your meal was wasted because you ate it when you were at 90.

 

[hotpoon]

Perhaps it was the way you organized and worded your feedback. I read this to mean that what you typed applied to other games but not 7 Days to die. So:Start with a modest pool of Stamina-- Other games but not 7 Days

Enough to chop down a few trees-- Other games but not 7 Days

Grow it with attribute points-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina pool never gimped by effects-- Other games but not 7 Days

Stamina affected by player action but then immediately refills-- Other games but not 7 Days

If I interpreted this incorrectly then I apologize. But that is the quote I was referencing.

You did interpret it incorrectly, but I can see now how you would think I was implying that, so apologies for creating confusion.

Don't know what to tell you. Never once in over 2000 hrs of playing have i ever hit max wellness except the time I creative mode'd in vitamins. It took a LOT of vitamins. More than I'd ever find playing.

Me neither (though only 1000 hours played), and I really tried because I wanted that Steam achievement . My husband reached max wellness but then he spent most of his time mining and building so took less risks than me, and he also has about 3000 hours more than me.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Don't know what to tell you. Never once in over 2000 hrs of playing have i ever hit max wellness except the time I creative mode'd in vitamins. It took a LOT of vitamins. More than I'd ever find playing.

It wasn't just vitamins. Meat Stew, Bacon and Eggs, Blueberry Pie to name a few... not to mention goldenrod tea and red tea. If you could avoid dying and getting sick, max wellness was in the bag. If I had to guess, you probably never reached max wellness because you didn't bother to... it was far from required to play successfully.

EDIT: also, if you weren't trying to max out your wellness, it is likely you perked a lot into the hunger and thirst perks... meaning you didn't need to eat or drink much and thus resulting in less chances to increase your wellness. They were tempting perks, but burdens in disguise.

 

[ColdGate]

Stamina, food, health changes, ok, I understood, new mechanics etc... But why you decided rework beer and coffee buffs??? It was must have and very useful before, but now, in A17 it totally useless... A16 - I may fight all horde night with melee, with few beer cans. Now, in A17 with beer I may few seconds do... nothing! And for melee horde night I need to have tons of perks spended in melee stamina reduction, run stamina reduction, stun chance reduction and other perks for same effect, and on level 120 I may try melee horde fight with some chances to survive...

 

[RestInPieces]

Stamina, food, health changes, ok, I understood, new mechanics etc... But why you decided rework beer and coffee buffs??? It was must have and very useful before, but now, in A17 it totally useless... A16 - I may fight all horde night with melee, with few beer cans. Now, in A17 with beer I may few seconds do... nothing! And for melee horde night I need to have tons of perks spended in melee stamina reduction, run stamina reduction, stun chance reduction and other perks for same effect, and on level 120 I may try melee horde fight with some chances to survive...

-You don't need to be 120 level to get all those perks.

-Coffee and beer should not magic potions that give you infinite stamina etc. It's ridiculous.

-Oh, the woe! Perks are needed, yes that should be fixed!

-Nonsense all around.

 

[Weazelsun]

I'm thinking if the current stamina = food + water and health = food + first aid. Perhaps, it can be simplified? Have it where stamina = water/ drinks and health = food + first aid. Makes somwhat sense to me since drinks are already tied to stamina regen. Rather than using food to recover the lost stamina, instead combine that into one with drinks. Then just tie health to food, where if you take damage you can still heal it with food, but max hp has to be recovered with medical items.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

My opinion:

Damage and swingspeed should coinside with stamina. (scaling and not instanced)

>75% full dm

>50% 3/4 dmg

>0% 1/4 dmg

0% 1/5 dmg and swingspeed and no heavy attack

This way even when you are out of stamina, you are not completely helpless and stamina perks do more than just "okay you can hit one more heavy swing before beeing useless"

 

[mr.devolver]

Usually in similar games when you drain your stamina, it goes back up much faster, so that you don't have to wait forever staring at your screen saying "OUT OF STAMINA" every few seconds. The way it works in 7 days to die doesn't really make the game harder, it's just a nuisance that makes the game boring for those who don't have that much patience to watch the screen literally doing nothing but waiting for stamina to get back up. This aspect of the game is already a meme. Every time I play coop with my niece, she puts a sign on our base which says "OUT OF STAMINA" and when I'm out, scavenging, mining or just fighting zombies, I often tell her: "Sorry, can't go back yet, because OUT OF STAMINA" and every time I tell her "OUT OF STAMINA", she makes that sign bigger. Last time she told me: "Sorry, I can't make that sign any bigger, we are already using the largest one" and I told her: "It's ok, we can use the metal letters this time..."

 

[n2n1]

Usually in similar games when you drain your stamina, it goes back up much faster, so that you don't have to wait forever staring at your screen saying "OUT OF STAMINA" every few seconds. The way it works in 7 days to die doesn't really make the game harder, it's just a nuisance that makes the game boring for those who don't have that much patience to watch the screen literally doing nothing but waiting for stamina to get back up. This aspect of the game is already a meme. Every time I play coop with my niece, she puts a sign on our base which says "OUT OF STAMINA" and when I'm out, scavenging, mining or just fighting zombies, I often tell her: "Sorry, can't go back yet, because OUT OF STAMINA" and every time I tell her "OUT OF STAMINA", she makes that sign bigger. Last time she told me: "Sorry, I can't make that sign any bigger, we are already using the largest one" and I told her: "It's ok, we can use the metal letters this time..."

- - - Updated - - -

I don't mind difficulties in game. But from difficult to tedious - one step.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

That moment you realize you should have learned left from right....

Roland... I feel sometimes as if you have become a friendlier Gazz

Yes the OP was way WAY out of line with the way he wrote stuff, but his point actually has some merit to it.

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

17.2 is way WAY better than .0

But the core problem is the inability to do anything while out of stamina.

You should be able to do anything but with heavy penalties.

Sprint is 80% slower but still faster than normal walking.

Hits are slower and heavy attacks are blocked.

But not beeing able do do anything feels bad.

Maybe you can even burn more food/drink while you are out of stamina.

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

 

[Roland]

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

No, just standing there waiting for it to come back up is not good or smart gameplay. I never do that and I don’t have the problem the OP describes.

This is a classic git gud situation. It’s also one in which turning down the difficulty can help if necessary.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Roland... I feel sometimes as if you have become a friendlier Gazz
Yes the OP was way WAY out of line with the way he wrote stuff, but his point actually has some merit to it.

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

Well, I do agree with your ultimate point, that a lack of stamina should slow the player down (a lot), but not actually prohibit actions. That's a good point Viktorius. I'd like to see that happen.

Still the OP really shot themselves in the foot, it wasn't a post, but a rant, they didn't mention which version of 17 they were using, nor what exactly they were doing (a brand new character making 8 power swings? Yeah, that could drain stamina real quick), so they were just venting I reckon.

 

[ktr]

Beeing out of stamina doesn't feel good.

And this is something I have said a lot in the past:

The game is punishing instead of rewarding.

Nobody likes to stare helplessly on the screen because he didn't look at his stamina for 1 sec.

17.2 is way WAY better than .0

But the core problem is the inability to do anything while out of stamina.

You can do something - back away and give stamina a couple of seconds to recharge. I say this as someone who doesn't pay constant attention to stamina even more so in combat. I've seen that out of stamina message pop up at inconvenient times. So I back up. The way I look at it, stamina is a resource in this game that's as vital as bullets, arrows, and the trusty club. Learning how to manage it/taking perks/agility to get more out of it are choices that we can make in order to get the most out of that resource.

You should be able to do anything but with heavy penalties.Sprint is 80% slower but still faster than normal walking.

Hits are slower and heavy attacks are blocked.

I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I honestly do not think it will solve the complaints. Instead of hearing about being out of stamina, it will be "the penalties for being low on stamina are too harsh". Or "well now I have to take micro breaks to use stamina optimally". The penalties would need to affect everything that consumes stamina, including mining. Just image the outrage that as someone chops down trees/mines boulders that their swings get slower and slower.

But not beeing able do do anything feels bad.Maybe you can even burn more food/drink while you are out of stamina.

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

I suspect that with the revamp of food that's been talked about, we'll likely see other ways to help manage stamina. Personally, I don't find stamina that big of a deal once I get a couple of points in agility. Between a higher stamina, the 150 fed option, red teas, coffee, & vehicles(honestly optional unless you're trying to cover long distances quickly), it gets pretty easy to maintain even in melee, and I am by no means an 'optimizer' except for my base traps

 

[RestInPieces]

But just standing there, waiting for it to come back up is not good design.

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. By the effin love of god and all that is holy, for the 100th time, TFP should really introduce options about these kinds of stuff like DP and stamina, instead of backtracking their changes like they did with .0. Preferably a mode that is devoid of basic needs and stamina altogether.

Because people who are of this opinion, clearly, by all intents and purposes, do not like the existence of a limiting factor they have to manage, such as stamina. I can respect different tastes, but what I can't respect is not just admitting this right away. Because, unless we play a different game, I can't see how stamina isn't nearly infinite without perks and infinite with perks, meaning that will full perks you can keep using a steel tool forever. These are facts - at least that's what bloody happens in my 17.2 client. Unless of course, people spam power attacks and don't realize that they are not meant to be used as a normal attacks (normal attacks wouldn't exist if that was the case) or just neglect basic needs.

I do agree about a *much* slower attack animation, (the 80% slower sprint would be pointless - jogging is free anyway), also forcing you to wait, but still being better than a button not giving you any visual feedback about your character's state, clearly for aesthetic/immersion reasons. But with the stamina of 17.2 even that is pointless.

 

[jeffrezyah]

I'm with you on this one, RestInPieces.

While i never had an issue with stamina in 17.2 (earlygame you need to be careful and you have to manage your stamina, but lategame it's never empty unless you powerswing your tool/weapon like a moron or - well - sledgehammer but this is fine too), i too would prefer to see some slower/weaker attacks while being low on stamina rather than no attack at all. Not being able to powerattack while low is fine.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life

I know that I can simply backtrack or simply keep an eye on my stamina.

This is not my point. I AM good. I always played on insane (now I dont because it only speeds up the insane hordenights, but I have them on highest speeds at night and one faster than normal on daytime (so that they are as fast or slightly faster than me when I walk normally)

My point is that there will be situations where the average player or the excentrist with faster zombies WILL run out of stamina. This is not something everyone can avoid.

And at THIS POINT, the game is punishing and unfun. THIS is what I'm criticising. I don'T want the game easier. Never wanted that (well silent wolfpacks I want "easier" but thats about it).

What I am arguing for is gamefun over punishment.

Yes a 20% sprint still makes a difference.

Yes a bad melee attack with the right perks (because if you don't have the perks you shouldn't melee as its the abolute worst) is still better than just "standing" there waiting for the zombies to hit/circle you.

This is also nothing I feel should need an option. As it doesn't make the game easier (if you put the right penalties in). It just gives the player back control over his character.

Yes OP was way too agressive. But you ppl somehow think that this is just about difficulty, which it isn't.

It is about the game punishing you for no reason.

Think if in darksouls there was a trap that can instantly kill you. (although dying there isn't as punishing as in 7d2d keep that in mind that dying is a part of Darksouls but it isnt in 7d2d)

If there is no countermeasure, no indication and no way to avoid it other than either knowing beforehand or blind luck, this trap is instantly no fun at all. It just kills you, you come back and do it again, this time the trap has changed so you are still bound to luck.

It punishes you instead of rewarding good preparation.

A good example in 7d2d would be that old POI compound thing where the main house is clearly burnt and if you rush in, you fall down into water surrounded by zombies.

-clear indication (everything beeing burnt)

-trap can be avoided

-even if you didnt you dont instantly break your bones

-you can still sneak/fight your way out depending on what you specced into.

A bad example is zombies breaking out of one of the poi walls.

-no indication (literally the worst)

-cant be avoided (except for sneaking or making sounds beforehand)

-they often surround you/cut you off so sneaking wont work and you have little space

Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

Make the game harder! That is not a problem for me. Give me a fair challenge and I will love it.

Give me unfair unrealistic, punishing cheating A.I. and I will throw away the game because I feel like I play with a hacker.

 

[xXBadDreamXx]

cue more git gud comments and....obviously you play the game wrong comments.

i totally agree with the concept of rewarding smart playing rather than punishing bad playing. people that like the game the way it is are very quick to browbeat people that arent so keen on it however. good luck having any kind of opinion that differs from the vocal minority

 

[andrewcu]

my suggestion would be to stop using only power attack. Ive never used a single power attack and i have never run out of stamina. problem solved. That or learn to use a good combination of the two.

 

[RestInPieces]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life
Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

In Dark Souls not knowing many things beforehand means certain death and part of its difficulty relies by learning from your mistakes on a large part - the developers themselves had said that - don't know if it's a good example in this case.

Difficulty in general comes in many forms. It can depend not only on "fast reflexes" and quick decisions, but also on strategic decisions, watchful management of resources, game knowledge, even RNG (not decisively however, only with fluctuations), etc.

But first of all fun is a very general and subjective term - the general consensus is that punishing the player, without giving him the chance to react at that moment, or prepare AKA punish him without him able to do anything about it, should not happen at any situation, so we agree on that.

And it has honestly never happened to me in 7DTD (other than with those silent wolf packs you mention, dogs/wolf packs suck for many reasons). And I am neither a particularly good player nor play on the lower side of difficulty settings.

-clear indication

Yes and it could be even more clear.

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

A worse player on higher difficulties can lower the difficulty and choose among many options than include zombies never running etc. But EVEN then, how can it not be avoided? I really, honestly, can't see a situation like that. You can swing a steel tool without pause for almost half a minute without perks and pretty much infinitely with just a few perks.

Also, one can avoid it by:

-not spamming power attacks

-not neglecting needs

-using ranged

-fleeing

I don't see how all these are not a matter of the player's own decision-making.

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

Your stamina regeneration is instant and very fast so even if there is nothing you can do for... a single second, you can always jog away and not die, ergo the game not punishing you. I've never been in that situation tbh, because I always have to backtrack among melee hits so my stamina doesn't end and always see to that I preserve enough stamina to sprint if zombies are running.

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

You can kite a zombie in nightmare speed by hitting and sprinting at intervals with the zombie never hitting you... which is frankly awful, because speed setting were supposed to accommodate different tastes. For example, I want to make zombies at night or during a BM, something you CAN'T possibly flee from. Atm you are perfectly able to flee from them as long as your character isn't debuffed (and you shouldn't pick fights if you are). There is also always an alternative for a ranged attack - if you don't have a gun and need a range attack just make a bow.

Finally, keep in mind that they shouldn't balance things for the highest difficulties, but for the default ones. For example, I really want the above zombie speed setting, where you can't actually avoid zombies - this time for real, and it would be ironic if they balanced things around that.

i totally agree with the concept of rewarding smart playing rather than punishing bad playing

This is a new forum "trope" trending and it sounds totally awesome but is asinine if you think about it. Everyone craves reward, but they don't get that it's the punishment that makes the reward. Without what you call "punishment", any situation that was "neutral" slowly starts to be perceived as punishment, and then the feeling of reward can only eventually turn into indifference. Sure, you can make players view it more like rewarding them with what they didn't have, rather than punishing them by taking what they had, but it is really a matter of perspective.

 

[Roland]

Yall out here thinking I never played a game in my life
I know that I can simply backtrack or simply keep an eye on my stamina.

This is not my point. I AM good. I always played on insane (now I dont because it only speeds up the insane hordenights, but I have them on highest speeds at night and one faster than normal on daytime (so that they are as fast or slightly faster than me when I walk normally)

My point is that there will be situations where the average player or the excentrist with faster zombies WILL run out of stamina. This is not something everyone can avoid.

And at THIS POINT, the game is punishing and unfun. THIS is what I'm criticising. I don'T want the game easier. Never wanted that (well silent wolfpacks I want "easier" but thats about it).

What I am arguing for is gamefun over punishment.

Yes a 20% sprint still makes a difference.

Yes a bad melee attack with the right perks (because if you don't have the perks you shouldn't melee as its the abolute worst) is still better than just "standing" there waiting for the zombies to hit/circle you.

This is also nothing I feel should need an option. As it doesn't make the game easier (if you put the right penalties in). It just gives the player back control over his character.

Yes OP was way too agressive. But you ppl somehow think that this is just about difficulty, which it isn't.

It is about the game punishing you for no reason.

Think if in darksouls there was a trap that can instantly kill you. (although dying there isn't as punishing as in 7d2d keep that in mind that dying is a part of Darksouls but it isnt in 7d2d)

If there is no countermeasure, no indication and no way to avoid it other than either knowing beforehand or blind luck, this trap is instantly no fun at all. It just kills you, you come back and do it again, this time the trap has changed so you are still bound to luck.

It punishes you instead of rewarding good preparation.

A good example in 7d2d would be that old POI compound thing where the main house is clearly burnt and if you rush in, you fall down into water surrounded by zombies.

-clear indication (everything beeing burnt)

-trap can be avoided

-even if you didnt you dont instantly break your bones

-you can still sneak/fight your way out depending on what you specced into.

A bad example is zombies breaking out of one of the poi walls.

-no indication (literally the worst)

-cant be avoided (except for sneaking or making sounds beforehand)

-they often surround you/cut you off so sneaking wont work and you have little space

Same with stamina

-clear indication

-can't always be avoided when meleeing (as a worse player or higher difficulties)

-when out of stamina, there is nothing you can do (maybe a megabuzz or a coffe, but those are also slow)

-you cant fight and cant run. it is the ultimate punishment for anyone without a gun.

It doesn'T feel fun. That is my main point.

Make the game harder! That is not a problem for me. Give me a fair challenge and I will love it.

Give me unfair unrealistic, punishing cheating A.I. and I will throw away the game because I feel like I play with a hacker.

It doesn't feel good when I run out of bullets. It's so punishing to have to sit and wait and not use my rifle until I can get more bullets in my inventory. TFP should introduce good game design by letting us fire our rifles even without bullets but just for less damage. Plus, to have to wait and repair a rifle that is broken is such a punishment-based design. Once rifles break and are out of bullets we should always be able to continuously fire them and at least do a little bit of ranged damage to zombies because anything other than that is UNFUN!

It feels so terrible when I'm out of Dukes and the trader is showing me all this stuff I want. When we are out of Dukes we should be able to still buy stuff from the trader if we want to so we don't have to wait until we get more Dukes. Maybe it is just low quality stuff but we should get it for free because waiting for stuff just sucks and games are meant to be fun.

Man, when I'm out of food it really is a tedious process to wait until I get more food before I can eat. If TFP knew what they were doing they would let us eat even when we are out of food. Maybe our fullness just goes up by a little bit but at least we can keep it moving up and have the rewarding feeling of seeing our max stamina increase all the time instead of having to wait to be able to do it until we have more food. To punish us by making us stop doing what we want to be doing and go out and either scavenge, or farm, or hunt is just an incredibly punishing design.

Come on Madmole! I'm a builder and I want to be able to constantly feel the fun and rewarding gameplay of building but sometimes I am out of materials and then I am forced to stop the gameplay I love. That is real bad game design. We should be able to continue to make blocks even when we have no materials left in our inventories. Why should I be punished to go spend tedious amounts of time gathering more materials when all I want to do is build. And don't tell me to use the creative menu. That is just a super mean thing to say on the forums. Maybe it could just take a bit longer to craft or maybe the blocks are weaker until you upgrade them later but to just make us stop crafting when we are depleted of mats sucks and if anyone tells me that I'm not playing right or should learn more about how to play they are just a spiteful troll and a TFP fanboi!

<looks around and sees all the Millennials nodding excitedly....>