PC Spoilage of building materials

[FA_Q2]

Agreed. While nerfing some things for difficulty is probably unavoidable, it shouldn't be the go-to solution for everything. It just slows things down without any fun added in to compensate. It's all been one giant nerf. Looking forward to some real content in A18.

I feel mixed about this tbh. I think this perspective arises from a game that we are used to seeing iron tools on day 1 or 2, having a full forge and farm by day 3 at the latest and being able to face the first 7 day horde with crete walls if you were so inclined. Stone tools were essentially non-existent. I don't remember using them for much of anything so an entire tier of equipment held no in game purpose really. Kind of like the wooden club is now - I think I might kill less than 10 zeds with it before making my first iron one. Might as well take it out of the game - I am not sure I would notice.

If I were to take a fresh look at the game entirely, most of those changes make a lot of sense to give the player real progression over a long time period.

 

[FA_Q2]

Early on you can't (or should not be able to) craft 50 meat stews because you don't have the meat and other ingredients.
We already have a food resource sink in the game, the player. For the in-game food economy the only requirement is that the supply is matched to this sink. Adding another sink or removing some of the supply is practically equivalent. (Remember A16.0, where food was scarce enough to be nearly balanced for experienced players)

Additionally spoilage adds a timing element so you have to space out the food gathering activities, making it (and possibly cooking) into a daily action instead of say once a week. It might also add micromanagement which some might like, some might not, but I can't imagine it ever getting complicated enough to really need higher brain functions after you found the right routine to use.

So IMHO the timing element is the only real reason to want spoilage. People would find a dish (without meat) where they can harvest all ingredients, get just the right amount from the garden every morning and cook it. A daily routine. Is that worth the effort of implementing it?

 

[Roland]

So IMHO the timing element is the only real reason to want spoilage. People would find a dish (without meat) where they can harvest all ingredients, get just the right amount from the garden every morning and cook it. A daily routine. Is that worth the effort of implementing it?

Yes. Totally worth it. That routine would not come about from thin air. The player would have to set it up by scavenging for seeds and slowly building up the garden to the point that the right amount would yield the daily result. And if you wanted daily you would have to have 3 days worth of plants that you could rotate through. Then, if animals and zombies can destroy those plants you would need to provide protection for them. All of this involves objectives that link together into one of the cool multi-step emergent quests that are in the game.

But it doesn't end there. The player develops this routine and must maintain it because he doesn't yet have tech that allows for stockpiling. So that begins the next set of objectives for eliminating the need for the daily routine. Maybe the first quest is for a cold box that uses snow as ammo. Now you can stockpile food but there is a new routine of gathering snow to feed the icebox.

Then there are fridges that run on electricity that can keep food indefinitely much like we have now for free. Other than keeping the generator going you now have no worries any longer about food. You have completely conquered that aspect of survival.

But for it to be meaningful you must have to first develop a good and steady daily food gathering routine and then move from tech to better tech to be able to move beyond daily routines to the ability to stockpile and preserve.

As I've said elsewhere, the current ability to stockpile food indefinitely is endgame tech and we get it for free from Day 1. We essentially have the creative menu enabled for food preservation.

 

[Roland]

I call BS.
Food spoilage in this game would be all 3 of those things and that has nothing to do with how I feel about survival games. It has everything to do with the fact that this system would not change any of the behaviors I have in my games at all. IOW, extra steps without any perceived benefit as far as the game and depth of play go. It all comes back to farming - if you want food to have a deeper impact in game play spoilage will not address this. Farming is the source of food stockpiles and food stockpiles will remain until you change the fundamentals of farming in this game.

It would change your behavior for sure in the early game. You can stockpile for free from day 1. That boar that always shows up in your spawn area or that doe you often see as you travel to the trader? That meat wouldn't get you through days. Without preservation you would only be able to eat some of it and then have to go hunting for more.

Of course it would need to be paired with changes to farming but that doesn't mean spoilage wouldn't have a huge impact on early game by itself. You may believe managing food that is perishable to be tedious, micromanagey, and artificial in difficulty but I doubt that you would play exactly the same way you do now. The ability to stockpile extra stores of food is a huge benefit and we get it for free.

Now I am open to the possibility that it is the same type of thing that allows us to carry tons of materials in our backpack as a free gift for the sake of the game-- but I don't think it is objectively true. Subjectively some people will feel that it is and others that it is not. Personally, I think the prospect of possibly starving to death in the game should be a real one. Maybe that can be acheived through means other than spoilage but spoilage is a pretty dang effective tool for that particular survival theme.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Did you ever play on crowded MP servers? Where you see your first animal at day 4 or 5? Food spoilage would need a different balance for SP and MP.

24 players server. Never full. I see an animal like every third day.

Also a hole in the ground is a very good way to cool food and stop it from spoiling for a little while. If you bring realism as an argument, pls also consider that.

Also let´s not forget about salt and smoke. If you want a real survival you gotta consider those, unless you don´t want a real survival.

 

[mr.natural]

Yes. Totally worth it. That routine would not come about from thin air. The player would have to set it up by scavenging for seeds and slowly building up the garden to the point that the right amount would yield the daily result. And if you wanted daily you would have to have 3 days worth of plants that you could rotate through. Then, if animals and zombies can destroy those plants you would need to provide protection for them. All of this involves objectives that link together into one of the cool multi-step emergent quests that are in the game.
But it doesn't end there. The player develops this routine and must maintain it because he doesn't yet have tech that allows for stockpiling. So that begins the next set of objectives for eliminating the need for the daily routine. Maybe the first quest is for a cold box that uses snow as ammo. Now you can stockpile food but there is a new routine of gathering snow to feed the icebox.

Then there are fridges that run on electricity that can keep food indefinitely much like we have now for free. Other than keeping the generator going you now have no worries any longer about food. You have completely conquered that aspect of survival.

But for it to be meaningful you must have to first develop a good and steady daily food gathering routine and then move from tech to better tech to be able to move beyond daily routines to the ability to stockpile and preserve.

As I've said elsewhere, the current ability to stockpile food indefinitely is endgame tech and we get it for free from Day 1. We essentially have the creative menu enabled for food preservation.

+1

I agree, although in vanilla farming is too easy atm.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

It would change your behavior for sure in the early game. You can stockpile for free from day 1. That boar that always shows up in your spawn area or that doe you often see as you travel to the trader? That meat wouldn't get you through days. Without preservation you would only be able to eat some of it and then have to go hunting for more.
Of course it would need to be paired with changes to farming but that doesn't mean spoilage wouldn't have a huge impact on early game by itself. You may believe managing food that is perishable to be tedious, micromanagey, and artificial in difficulty but I doubt that you would play exactly the same way you do now. The ability to stockpile extra stores of food is a huge benefit and we get it for free.

Now I am open to the possibility that it is the same type of thing that allows us to carry tons of materials in our backpack as a free gift for the sake of the game-- but I don't think it is objectively true. Subjectively some people will feel that it is and others that it is not. Personally, I think the prospect of possibly starving to death in the game should be a real one. Maybe that can be acheived through means other than spoilage but spoilage is a pretty dang effective tool for that particular survival theme.

Seems like we DO agree on certain aspects ^^

+1 this is what good gamedesign and challenge is.

Not lowering stamina and zombies doing 100000 blockdamage.

 

[RipClaw]

+1 I agree, although in vanilla farming is too easy atm.

Farming is easy because it is not a central point in the game. After all, the game is also called "7 Days to die die" and not "Don't starve".

Personally, I wouldn't mind a little more emphasis on farming. I always had a garden and that mostly very early in the game. On the one hand it provides me with everything I need and on the other hand I can also use it as a decorative element.

However, I am opposed to introducing food spoilage for the sole reason of creating the risk of starvation. That doesn't add any value to the game for me. It should also offer some content. For example, the player should be able to create something useful from the spoiled food.

In addition, it would probably be seen as a punishment by many who have no interest in farming. For these players, it would be seen as a compulsion to play artificially.

If you want to give farming more importance in the game, you would have to start with cooking. Currently, much of what you can eat is interchangeable. There is only limited food with useful longer lasting effects. An example of food that has a positive effect and lasts longer than 30 seconds is the Sham Chowder.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I feel mixed about this tbh. I think this perspective arises from a game that we are used to seeing iron tools on day 1 or 2, having a full forge and farm by day 3 at the latest and being able to face the first 7 day horde with crete walls if you were so inclined. Stone tools were essentially non-existent. I don't remember using them for much of anything so an entire tier of equipment held no in game purpose really. Kind of like the wooden club is now - I think I might kill less than 10 zeds with it before making my first iron one. Might as well take it out of the game - I am not sure I would notice.
If I were to take a fresh look at the game entirely, most of those changes make a lot of sense to give the player real progression over a long time period.

I agree. A lot of the things that were nerfed for A17 probably needed to be. So yeah, the perspective is naturally going to be a giant nerf. Maybe there exists ways to extend early game without having to do so, but none come to mind for me. However, I think that when you have realized that the current game you have needs such a giant nerf, there should be some consideration about what impact this will have on fun... especially when you've had everyone playing the game in need of said nerfs for oh so very long. When you know you are going to have people already complaining about changes in some systems, then on top of it you throw down a set nerfs, a lot of negativity surrounding the alpha is practically guaranteed to come. If the new things that are coming in A18 were provided in A17, the nerfing would simply be seen as changes. Then again, I'm not so certain they would have gone in such a direction if they extended their time. A18 could be just in response to the realization that the last alpha was a giant nerfing.

 

[Roland]

Did you ever play on crowded MP servers? Where you see your first animal at day 4 or 5? Food spoilage would need a different balance for SP and MP.

Crowded as in more than eight, the officially supported maximum number of players? The setting would be on/off.

Also a hole in the ground is a very good way to cool food and stop it from spoiling for a little while. If you bring realism as an argument, pls also consider that.

Also let´s not forget about salt and smoke. If you want a real survival you gotta consider those, unless you don´t want a real survival.

Sure...but the first battle is to get it implemented at all. Then we can look at the various methods of preservation to form a satisfying tech tree.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Sure...but the first battle is to get it implemented at all. Then we can look at the various methods of preservation to form a satisfying tech tree.

Yes, I'm not sure why there's resistance to food spoilage, and I say that as someone not massively looking forward to it either. I mean, it will likely be easy to implement a slider for the decay rate, down to zero, effectively making it optional for those that don't want it, and, if done right, could lead to an interesting tech-tree to climb, along the lines of:

1. Starting out - eat what you find, more or less as soon as you find it. Store a few cans if you're lucky to find those.

2. Figure out how to smoke/salt meat could be the next step for lengthening the decay timer.

3. Figure out how to refrigerate without power, for example, packing food in snow "fueled" containers to extend the timer even more. Hey presto, a good reason to hunt down snow.

4. Figure out how to store food in electrically powered refrigerators to massively extend, or even infinitely extend the decay timer. A good reason to use electricity.

5. Figure out even potentially, how to can food (a canner machine) to further extend lifetimes without power consumption.

Pair it with destructible crops (like we used to have), so their placement actually matters, and I could see a system developing that could add some interesting "cycle time" to the daily survival grind.

 

[meganoth]

Yes. Totally worth it. That routine would not come about from thin air. The player would have to set it up by scavenging for seeds and slowly building up the garden to the point that the right amount would yield the daily result. And if you wanted daily you would have to have 3 days worth of plants that you could rotate through. Then, if animals and zombies can destroy those plants you would need to provide protection for them. All of this involves objectives that link together into one of the cool multi-step emergent quests that are in the game.
But it doesn't end there. The player develops this routine and must maintain it because he doesn't yet have tech that allows for stockpiling. So that begins the next set of objectives for eliminating the need for the daily routine. Maybe the first quest is for a cold box that uses snow as ammo. Now you can stockpile food but there is a new routine of gathering snow to feed the icebox.

Then there are fridges that run on electricity that can keep food indefinitely much like we have now for free. Other than keeping the generator going you now have no worries any longer about food. You have completely conquered that aspect of survival.

But for it to be meaningful you must have to first develop a good and steady daily food gathering routine and then move from tech to better tech to be able to move beyond daily routines to the ability to stockpile and preserve.

As I've said elsewhere, the current ability to stockpile food indefinitely is endgame tech and we get it for free from Day 1. We essentially have the creative menu enabled for food preservation.

I'm all for plant-destroying zombies, but that is a practically independent feature from spoilage. It adds no spoilage sink, it adds a wall-building task to protect the MacGuffin that incidentally is a garden in this case

Apart from that you (and RestinPeaces and others) have surely good arguments for spoilage. I don't like the abundance of food either and would love to try out a good spoilage mod. But this isn't a small isolated change, it adds another stack of "routine" i.e. no-brainer tasks, might need changes to inventory size (depending on implementation), might make farming a complex balancing problem (again I point to the evil of exponential growth). It might also generate problems on MP servers with clocks not stopping if you log out. Seeds, plants, fruits and cooked food, all need spoilage in some form, for seeds and plants that might mean effective timers on blocks, is that even possible without another FPS hit on chunk loading?

Whatever anyone implements, the chances are overwhelmingly good that you will create a (specialist) monster that fails to be good for vanilla because it has to fullfill conflicting objectives: 1) be severe enough to reign in the produce of exponentially multiplying seeds and 2) be light enough on micro-management and tediousness so that other people besides a few hardcore survivalists use it instead of waiting for the ice box or fridge before doing any farming at all.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Crowded as in more than eight, the officially supported maximum number of players? The setting would be on/off.


Sure...but the first battle is to get it implemented at all. Then we can look at the various methods of preservation to form a satisfying tech tree.

Crowded like in most MP servers. 8 is the idea of a MP? Really? Wow. I mean ofc TFP can ignore the fact that many servers have more people. Not sure if this would be a good idea tough.

But i can see how this ends. You don´t listen what the devs say so it´s your fault. Meh.

Also how about sharing this info ingame where you can set the max number of players to 16? I wonder how many people even know about that 8 players max supported thingy. I hear this for the first time.

I mean who has the brilliant idea to only support 8 players and put in 16 as an option with no info about the 8 player limit what so ever?

 

[RestInPieces]

I'm all for plant-destroying zombies, but that is a practically independent feature from spoilage. It adds no spoilage sink, it adds a wall-building task to protect the MacGuffin that incidentally is a garden in this case
Apart from that you (and RestinPeaces and others) have surely good arguments for spoilage. I don't like the abundance of food either and would love to try out a good spoilage mod. But this isn't a small isolated change, it adds another stack of "routine" i.e. no-brainer tasks, might need changes to inventory size (depending on implementation), might make farming a complex balancing problem (again I point to the evil of exponential growth). It might also generate problems on MP servers with clocks not stopping if you log out. Seeds, plants, fruits and cooked food, all need spoilage in some form, for seeds and plants that might mean effective timers on blocks, is that even possible without another FPS hit on chunk loading?

Whatever anyone implements, the chances are overwhelmingly good that you will create a (specialist) monster that fails to be good for vanilla because it has to fullfill conflicting objectives: 1) be severe enough to reign in the produce of exponentially multiplying seeds and 2) be light enough on micro-management and tediousness so that other people besides a few hardcore survivalists use it instead of waiting for the ice box or fridge before doing any farming at all.

RestinPeaces

:'(
I am no expert but it seems impossible to me that the game would take an FPS hit because of that. It's not like each item will have a timer that will have to be checked every frame. Anyway let's leave that to the experts like faatal.

I think plant-destroying zombies are a bad idea for a multitude of reasons. Like players using them for that purpose only to just being ridiculous thematic-wise.

As for the routine, yes, the added actions are the main purpose of spoilage.

-Everything is "added actions" if you break it down - in this case it will be a step towards "emergent time management".

-It will make sure that farming as an activity is actually not used once or twice (or sometimes not used at all).

-It doesn't have to be just "click routine", if you add some resource management like a cost like fertilizer or plot loss.

-Looted food will stop being "trash", because the player has stockpiled a ton of it.

As for MP servers with timers not stopping and a lot of people etc, I don't think these would be a problem for players who actually opted for spoilage and chose to join a server with spoilage in the first place.

These objectives are anything but conflicting - the (very general) "complex (if needed) and effective but seamless and intuitive" are principles that must go hand in hand. E.g. spoilage should be obvious in the UI at the first glance or the lifetime of foods must be such that they will be easily memorable and ensure that the player almost never has to check expiration dates after playing with spoilage for a while. Barely any micromanagement if implemented nicely (unlike the current inventory system for example).

 

[OzHawkeye]

Also how about sharing this info ingame where you can set the max number of players to 16? I wonder how many people even know about that 8 players max supported thingy. I hear this for the first time.
I mean who has the brilliant idea to only support 8 players and put in 16 as an option with no info about the 8 player limit what so ever?

Well, I don't know about the ingame being able to go to 16, but I'm surprised you didn't know the max supported players was 8. Has always been that since, well, ever, and quite often raised.

 

[Roland]

Crowded like in most MP servers. 8 is the idea of a MP? Really? Wow. I mean ofc TFP can ignore the fact that many servers have more people. Not sure if this would be a good idea tough.
But i can see how this ends. You don´t listen what the devs say so it´s your fault. Meh.

Also how about sharing this info ingame where you can set the max number of players to 16? I wonder how many people even know about that 8 players max supported thingy. I hear this for the first time.

I mean who has the brilliant idea to only support 8 players and put in 16 as an option with no info about the 8 player limit what so ever?

The game always in the past only allowed up to 8. If that has been increased to 16 then that would be the new supported number. But I wasn’t aware that it had been changed to 16.

 

[meganoth]

:'(

Well, someone had to correct your spelling :smile-new:

Signed,

Megasloth

I am no expert but it seems impossible to me that the game would take an FPS hit because of that. It's not like each item will have a timer that will have to be checked every frame. Anyway let's leave that to the experts like faatal.

With the knowledge we have of the game internals and comparing to stuff that already works in the game or is avoided we can guess and be right more times than not. If we didn't talk about stuff we are not the expert for why are we talking about game design and spoilage now? :cocksure:

In this case I forgot that trees and plants already grow multiple stages on timers irrespective of chunk loaded or not. So I can answer my own question with some confidence now and conclude that it would not incur more load than plants already do.

I think plant-destroying zombies are a bad idea for a multitude of reasons. Like players using them for that purpose only to just being ridiculous thematic-wise.

You mean on PvP servers? I would guess PvP players might even like such a creative way of destroying farms or drawing out players out of their hiding hole. And destroying a farm by yourself is a matter of a few minutes (one hit per seed, two per grown plant), it isn't as if zombies provided something you couldn't do yourself.

As for the routine, yes, the added actions are the main purpose of spoilage.

-Everything is "added actions" if you break it down - in this case it will be a step towards "emergent time management".

-It will make sure that farming as an activity is actually not used once or twice (or sometimes not used at all).

-It doesn't have to be just "click routine", if you add some resource management like a cost like fertilizer or plot loss.

-Looted food will stop being "trash", because the player has stockpiled a ton of it.

Not all "added actions" are equal:

Bringing back fertilizer is a good idea IMO. Maybe even an excellent idea if it could be used to seriously limit the size of garden you have. Thereby stopping the exponential growth(!). Advantages: You need a resource that is also used for ammunition. You can use the ground without fertilizer too, so there are multiple ways, and decisions to do. Using fertilizer is a one-time cost for every garden-block. In actual implementation in previous alphas it was still too easy and fast to get a big garden, but the potential is there.

What I really don't like are ideas like bringing back re-planting or adding watering as regular time-waster activities, because they are just drawing out a single step (harvesting) into multiple steps without any decicion branches, the next step is always fixed. This is the equivalent of making arrows with sticks instead of directly from wood and having absolutely no other use for sticks. Or of making mining a two-step process of lifting the pick and hitting.

As for MP servers with timers not stopping and a lot of people etc, I don't think these would be a problem for players who actually opted for spoilage and chose to join a server with spoilage in the first place.

It's my impression that Roland wants the death of easy stockpiles in the **vanilla** game, maybe even as a default. And then at least TFP has to think about cases likes this (I think it might even have been MM who mentioned this problem recently in the A18 dev thread). Even a mod author has to decide if he wants to make a mod targeted to a small group of players or with general appeal.

 

[Roland]

If this were the game I was building I would definitely have free stockpiling a thing of the past for vanilla. But I’d be happy with being able to have it be a mod. I’m actually fine with not having food spoilage as long as there are other mechanisms put into place to make starvation.....how can I put this.....remotely possible.

 

[Roland]

One thought is having food poisoning be an advancing condition. Each day all existing food not in a powered fridge gains 5% chance to give food poisoning. Happens once per day to all currently existing food in the game everywhere. Want to get fancy...

5% raw food

3% prepared food

1% canned food.

 

[RestInPieces]

Well, someone had to correct your spelling :smile-new:
Signed,

Megasloth

Take your hands off my extremely cool and edgy nickname!

With the knowledge we have of the game internals and comparing to stuff that already works in the game or is avoided we can guess and be right more times than not. If we didn't talk about stuff we are not the expert for why are we talking about game design and spoilage now? :cocksure:

Everyone is an expert at game design duh!

You mean on PvP servers? I would guess PvP players might even like such a creative way of destroying farms or drawing out players out of their hiding hole. And destroying a farm by yourself is a matter of a few minutes (one hit per seed, two per grown plant), it isn't as if zombies provided something you couldn't do yourself.

Anywhere - who knows what exploits it can will lead to. "Exploits" get fixed in SP games as well for a good reason. I don't know where it could lead, perhaps towards endless towers with strategically placed plants which will manipulate zombie pathing or whatever. It's one of the things that looks like it's not worth exploring. As I see it, it is also thematically anti-climatic.

Not all "added actions" are equal:
Bringing back fertilizer is a good idea IMO. Maybe even an excellent idea if it could be used to seriously limit the size of garden you have. Thereby stopping the exponential growth(!). Advantages: You need a resource that is also used for ammunition. You can use the ground without fertilizer too, so there are multiple ways, and decisions to do. Using fertilizer is a one-time cost for every garden-block. In actual implementation in previous alphas it was still too easy and fast to get a big garden, but the potential is there.

What I really don't like are ideas like bringing back re-planting or adding watering as regular time-waster activities, because they are just drawing out a single step (harvesting) into multiple steps without any decicion branches, the next step is always fixed. This is the equivalent of making arrows with sticks instead of directly from wood and having absolutely no other use for sticks. Or of making mining a two-step process of lifting the pick and hitting.

Of course, totally agree. It should include some kind of decision making process. Although even simple actions can also lead to that as long as time is valuable and they have a time cost. But yes, it has to be more than that in the current state of the game.

It's my impression that Roland wants the death of easy stockpiles in the **vanilla** game, maybe even as a default. And then at least TFP has to think about cases likes this (I think it might even have been MM who mentioned this problem recently in the A18 dev thread). Even a mod author has to decide if he wants to make a mod targeted to a small group of players or with general appeal.

I'd wager that the appeal of such a feature is strong enough if you think that Bethesda and a bunch of other survival games (both crappy and great) with fewer general "realistic" elements use it. But popular or not, they don't use it just for kicks, they usually use it for the reasons we want to have it in the game as well. One of my biggest gripes with this game was always that it didn't exploit its content very well - I think this is one of those cases - so much content becomes sooner or later irrelevant without it.

If this were the game I was building I would definitely have free stockpiling a thing of the past for vanilla. But I’d be happy with being able to have it be a mod. I’m actually fine with not having food spoilage as long as there are other mechanisms put into place to make starvation.....how can I put this.....remotely possible.

Well I don't see any other way to make starvation possible. Even if you remove the essence of farming, which is exponential growth, altogether, and left with barely any other loot source, the player would still 100% either stockpile if the avg looted food was a bit more than the avg consumption or starve every few days if the opposite happened.