Some ideas to make stealth relevant. Reworked more flexible progression concept. Visual enhancements.

[TWORDY]

Hello.

STEALTH

First, I would like to address stealth and how to possibly make it more relevant and fun. It would be nice to walk slowly (with stealth feature, you know that yellow eye activated) but on the straight legs. For me it's always better to have the higher ground, better view rather than simply crouch. Stealth feature with upright posture while walking slowly by holding Left Alt might be a cool feature. Easy to implement I guess.

In addition perking stealth would make players footsteps more silent while walking, running and sprinting. The player could silently open chests with loot and have less probability to trigger zombies, alert nearby enemies by doing so.

PENETRATOR

I believe this feature should be gated only by ammo type and weapons by itself rather than having it as a perk. Seems more reasonable for me and its relatively easier to quantify penetration assigned to weapon and ammo, armour and material as a whole and its nature.

RELOADING THE WEAPON

Please do not make a character slow down even further while walking and reloading at the same time. This particular mechanics in 7DTD feels clunky (at least to me) compared to many other games I've played so far. I don't want to bash the game itself but the current reload mechanics feels overcomplicated and the character without leveled perk just simply stutters. I would only enable reloads while running as an available perk. Why do we have to make our lives even harder, guys, please...

//////

PROGRESSION SYSTEM

What had been cool about >learning by doing progression system< back in previous alphas was the possibility to progress at any weapon, at any given time. Right now certain weapons are gated behind 5 grand abilities/skills same as other perks.

What I would love to see is basically a completely new approach, that would enable more flexibility when it comes to choosing from weapon/armour set, abilities, perks according to player likings.

In the end, such a solution might lead to a unique game style by granting the players absolute freedom of choice. By doing so, each weapon, melee, or rifle would have a separate skill tree, independent from other major skills. Other perks would be scattered among other trees respectively. Such change could possibly make it easier to balance the game as a whole by the devs. Newly created perks might have been introduced (independently!) faster, without worrying about balancing each 5 skill charts at the same time. Instead of some sort of excel framework as it is present now, skill trees could have been introduced a long time ago. Please devs, consider giving more freedom to players in this regard.

///

So here is the example. I will try to present more specificaly where I'm heading with this later. I will try to give an idea. Probably with this system players would have to be granted skill points more often. Thanks to this solution anything that might be easily gated behind skill points or learn by doing a progression system might be reintroduced as well as an optional game mode!!! So instead of clogging perks behind 5 skills, I would strongly suggest studying this. I would rather see small clusters of this sort. It would be easier to draw this.

Players could reach 125 health or stamina by just perking (devs could gate it behind skill points).

>Increased 105 health would require 1 skill point, 110 - 2 skill points, 115 - 3 skill points, 120 - 4 skill points, 125 - 5 skill points. Total of 15 skill points to be invested.

>Increased 105 stamina would require 1 skill point, 110 - 2 skill points, 115 - 3 skill points, 120 - 4 skill points, 125 - 5 skill ponts. Total of 15 skill points to be invested.

The same can be done with health and stamina regeneration, even combined at the same time.

Fists or Leather/Iron/Steel Knuckles. Easy to unlock due to game staging. Any other melee weapons would require a total of 15 skill points invested.

>Fists LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 1 skill point, LVL3 - 1 skill point, LVL4 - 1 skill point, LVL5 - 1 skill point. Total of 5 skill points to be invested to max out the Fists.

Here is another example of Pistols and SMGs as basic weapons. This particular weapon could be perked by players faster due to its basic use and early game stage.

>Pistolero quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 1 skill points, LVL3 - 1 skill point, LVL4 - 1 skill point, LVL5 - 1 skill point. Total of 5 skill points to be invested to max out the pistol.

But to perk up Revolvers, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles would require more steep progression. Here is one of the Examples.

>Shotgun quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 2 skill points, LVL3 - 3 skill points, LVL4 - 4 skill points, LVL5 - 5 skill point. Total of 15 skill points to be invested to max out the pistol.

So here is an example of perception from Profits of Overall Perception (if I translated it correctly). Just another example.

>Infiltrator quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 2 skill points, LVL3 - 3 skill points.

This might be sorted into Weapons clusters as Malee and Rifles clusterphack. Some Survival, Health, Scientific, Technological cluster. This would be more elegant in my humble opinion. 

I have no idea how to nicely bind this information into nice tress or square boxed icons as presented above (in similar fashion to DMX mod), or how to make it look and function nicely, but its just an idea that potentially could grant players more flexiblility and slightly less linear choice. Merely a concept that might work.

So yeah, each ability might have been progressed pretty much independently without worrying about stiff 5 major skills as Fortitude etc.

//////

BALANCING THE GAME

I will do a simple math.

Right now.

Geared player with 200HP, best set Armour possible, Assault Rifle with perked 50% more damage on quality AK (please make the bonus work only against undead/zombies, not players), HP ammo, attachements that grant higher ranged damage instead of something else.

VS

Naked player with 100HP entered a server and just found a blunderbuss...

The game seems simply too steep for PVP in my humble opinion. Not mentioning desyncs, netcode that asks for better times, slightly misleading animations.

///

I would like to see max 125HP, best set Armour, Assault Rifle that doesnt add any dmg bonus when it comes to its quality against at least players, HP ammo that works as HP ammo, attachments that grant better visually looking scopes, grips that improve weapon stability and control, suppressors, muzzles. Extended dedicated mag sizes, heavy barrel, stocks etc for each weapon to be found independently. Simply mods that doesn't just increase damage. Just wisely balance the game with armour and ammo type, please, I beg You devs.

Then what should happen is a waaay better-balanced game, something easier to read through and less sponge bobby gameplay. Easier to count bullets spent on the enemies equals less frustration. Please have mercy and look into this.

Fire exchanges can be made less steep. Some bonuses might be added to the fight against Zombies or AI. I would only keep damage bonuses to melee weapons and to bows and crossbows to make the game less running and gunning to be perfectly honest with You guys. That would encourage ppl to knock enemy players with a freaking Pan out of the sudden so the player gets killed after 2-3 hits.

//////

COLLECTING CLUTTER

Some of the stuff found in the backpack could be revised also. Car radiators might have been stacked up to 15 instead of just 5 as someone mentioned before on the forum. I have no bloody idea why do we have to collect 3 different types of brass, then scrap it in inventory for hours instead of bringing it into a Workbench and scrap it there at once as God commanded himself (have mercy over my soul). I don't know why do we find let's say around 5 to 20 lead in cupboards instead of a pile of cables (I believe everyone has got it somewhere under the bed) in order to scrap it into lead or plastic then or both resources at the same time (why not). The amount of lead that can be found around POIs makes me depressed and I simply remove this staggering amount out of my inventory. I would really appreciate it if someone looked into this. Stacking ammo is a bit of a nightmare during Blood moons. I hope the new system will improve ammo management in some way.

//////

IMPROVING VISUAL LOOK THAT SELLS THE GAME

It's refreshing to see a nicely textured hand with a beautifully casted shadow on it (well done in Alpha 19.4). M60 looks exceptionally well, someone who has created a skin for this particular weapon should get a pay rise. I cannot say this about other weapons which have rather a low res rusted texture. Please, guys, work on weapon textures especially Tactical Rifle and Automatic shotgun. Pump shotgun and Auger needs to be redesigned and retexturized. Some melee weapons look stunning with some of the dedicated mods. I hope with time all weapons will receive dedicated mods specifically for weapon type/family, or strictly for a given weapon so players could clutter themselves with mods rather than weapon parts.

I would like to see more scopes for weapons and holo attached independently. Holo on Tactical Rifle and Sniper Rifle looks stunning, I would only hope to attach them interchangeably rather than having them exclusively for each gun. The automatic shotgun holo looks kind of meh... please redesign it or attach the same holo from Sniper Rifle. Seriously holo from Sniper Rifle looks kickass 10/10.

Please add some vertical recoil to Assault Rifle. Doesn't have to be huge but some initial kick upwards at least after shooting more than 4 bullets. It's gone right now. Experiment with this.

I would increase the texture size of skybox or leave it under Terrain Quality. Nice skyboxes make a game look better instantly. Please work on foliage especially grass and small bushes that feel way outdated, not to mention some other plants. It's kind of strange to see the same tree planted by a player after few days. Some variety and work on trees and overall biom look is always something exciting to see. 

POIs look exceptional when it comes to complexity. Someone could work on visual look, textures, geometry a little bit. Some parts of feel like graphics around some earlier years in their complexity. Some interior art director would be great. Please update the bed and lamp sometime.

//////

I hope someone reads through my post. 7DTD is exceptional. Some of the things that make this game special. Feels more or like lifetime service. Some of the games like HoI4 and CoH2 receive updates after years too. 7DTD is a great game but some changes to keep players busy would be great. Thank You everyone.

 

[Cernwn]

TLDR but agreed, stealth and player detection is pretty broken in the current A19.4 b7 implementation. You should be able to sneak up to melee range directly behind an awake zombie, if avoiding LoS (line of sight) and not making noise, even in broad daylight. Lighting, perks and gear should just make modifiers to avoid LoS and noise. i.e. Light armor gives a small noise penalty (without mods), heavy armor gives a large noise penalty, and multiple zeds will make it more difficult to avoid LoS depending on their facing and any cover.

Would love to see a stealth system more along the lines of the old Eidos Thief series...

 

[Matt115]

Hello.

STEALTH

First, I would like to address stealth and how to possibly make it more relevant and fun. It would be nice to walk slowly (with stealth feature, you know that yellow eye activated) but on the straight legs. For me it's always better to have the higher ground, better view rather than simply crouch. Stealth feature with upright posture while walking slowly by holding Left Alt might be a cool feature. Easy to implement I guess.

In addition perking stealth would make players footsteps more silent while walking, running and sprinting. The player could silently open chests with loot and have less probability to trigger zombies, alert nearby enemies by doing so.

PENETRATOR

I believe this feature should be gated only by ammo type and weapons by itself rather than having it as a perk. Seems more reasonable for me and its relatively easier to quantify penetration assigned to weapon and ammo, armour and material as a whole and its nature.

RELOADING THE WEAPON

Please do not make a character slow down even further while walking and reloading at the same time. This particular mechanics in 7DTD feels clunky (at least to me) compared to many other games I've played so far. I don't want to bash the game itself but the current reload mechanics feels overcomplicated and the character without leveled perk just simply stutters. I would only enable reloads while running as an available perk. Why do we have to make our lives even harder, guys, please...

//////

PROGRESSION SYSTEM

What had been cool about >learning by doing progression system< back in previous alphas was the possibility to progress at any weapon, at any given time. Right now certain weapons are gated behind 5 grand abilities/skills same as other perks.

What I would love to see is basically a completely new approach, that would enable more flexibility when it comes to choosing from weapon/armour set, abilities, perks according to player likings.

In the end, such a solution might lead to a unique game style by granting the players absolute freedom of choice. By doing so, each weapon, melee, or rifle would have a separate skill tree, independent from other major skills. Other perks would be scattered among other trees respectively. Such change could possibly make it easier to balance the game as a whole by the devs. Newly created perks might have been introduced (independently!) faster, without worrying about balancing each 5 skill charts at the same time. Instead of some sort of excel framework as it is present now, skill trees could have been introduced a long time ago. Please devs, consider giving more freedom to players in this regard.

///

So here is the example. I will try to present more specificaly where I'm heading with this later. I will try to give an idea. Probably with this system players would have to be granted skill points more often. Thanks to this solution anything that might be easily gated behind skill points or learn by doing a progression system might be reintroduced as well as an optional game mode!!! So instead of clogging perks behind 5 skills, I would strongly suggest studying this. I would rather see small clusters of this sort. It would be easier to draw this.

Players could reach 125 health or stamina by just perking (devs could gate it behind skill points).

>Increased 105 health would require 1 skill point, 110 - 2 skill points, 115 - 3 skill points, 120 - 4 skill points, 125 - 5 skill points. Total of 15 skill points to be invested.

>Increased 105 stamina would require 1 skill point, 110 - 2 skill points, 115 - 3 skill points, 120 - 4 skill points, 125 - 5 skill ponts. Total of 15 skill points to be invested.

The same can be done with health and stamina regeneration, even combined at the same time.

Fists or Leather/Iron/Steel Knuckles. Easy to unlock due to game staging. Any other melee weapons would require a total of 15 skill points invested.

>Fists LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 1 skill point, LVL3 - 1 skill point, LVL4 - 1 skill point, LVL5 - 1 skill point. Total of 5 skill points to be invested to max out the Fists.

Here is another example of Pistols and SMGs as basic weapons. This particular weapon could be perked by players faster due to its basic use and early game stage.

>Pistolero quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 1 skill points, LVL3 - 1 skill point, LVL4 - 1 skill point, LVL5 - 1 skill point. Total of 5 skill points to be invested to max out the pistol.

But to perk up Revolvers, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles would require more steep progression. Here is one of the Examples.

>Shotgun quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 2 skill points, LVL3 - 3 skill points, LVL4 - 4 skill points, LVL5 - 5 skill point. Total of 15 skill points to be invested to max out the pistol.

So here is an example of perception from Profits of Overall Perception (if I translated it correctly). Just another example.

>Infiltrator quality LVL1 - 1 skill point, LVL2 - 2 skill points, LVL3 - 3 skill points.

This might be sorted into Weapons clusters as Malee and Rifles clusterphack. Some Survival, Health, Scientific, Technological cluster. This would be more elegant in my humble opinion. 

I have no idea how to nicely bind this information into nice tress or square boxed icons as presented above (in similar fashion to DMX mod), or how to make it look and function nicely, but its just an idea that potentially could grant players more flexiblility and slightly less linear choice. Merely a concept that might work.

So yeah, each ability might have been progressed pretty much independently without worrying about stiff 5 major skills as Fortitude etc.

//////

BALANCING THE GAME

I will do a simple math.

Right now.

Geared player with 200HP, best set Armour possible, Assault Rifle with perked 50% more damage on quality AK (please make the bonus work only against undead/zombies, not players), HP ammo, attachements that grant higher ranged damage instead of something else.

VS

Naked player with 100HP entered a server and just found a blunderbuss...

The game seems simply too steep for PVP in my humble opinion. Not mentioning desyncs, netcode that asks for better times, slightly misleading animations.

///

I would like to see max 125HP, best set Armour, Assault Rifle that doesnt add any dmg bonus when it comes to its quality against at least players, HP ammo that works as HP ammo, attachments that grant better visually looking scopes, grips that improve weapon stability and control, suppressors, muzzles. Extended dedicated mag sizes, heavy barrel, stocks etc for each weapon to be found independently. Simply mods that doesn't just increase damage. Just wisely balance the game with armour and ammo type, please, I beg You devs.

Then what should happen is a waaay better-balanced game, something easier to read through and less sponge bobby gameplay. Easier to count bullets spent on the enemies equals less frustration. Please have mercy and look into this.

Fire exchanges can be made less steep. Some bonuses might be added to the fight against Zombies or AI. I would only keep damage bonuses to melee weapons and to bows and crossbows to make the game less running and gunning to be perfectly honest with You guys. That would encourage ppl to knock enemy players with a freaking Pan out of the sudden so the player gets killed after 2-3 hits.

//////

COLLECTING CLUTTER

Some of the stuff found in the backpack could be revised also. Car radiators might have been stacked up to 15 instead of just 5 as someone mentioned before on the forum. I have no bloody idea why do we have to collect 3 different types of brass, then scrap it in inventory for hours instead of bringing it into a Workbench and scrap it there at once as God commanded himself (have mercy over my soul). I don't know why do we find let's say around 5 to 20 lead in cupboards instead of a pile of cables (I believe everyone has got it somewhere under the bed) in order to scrap it into lead or plastic then or both resources at the same time (why not). The amount of lead that can be found around POIs makes me depressed and I simply remove this staggering amount out of my inventory. I would really appreciate it if someone looked into this. Stacking ammo is a bit of a nightmare during Blood moons. I hope the new system will improve ammo management in some way.

//////

IMPROVING VISUAL LOOK THAT SELLS THE GAME

It's refreshing to see a nicely textured hand with a beautifully casted shadow on it (well done in Alpha 19.4). M60 looks exceptionally well, someone who has created a skin for this particular weapon should get a pay rise. I cannot say this about other weapons which have rather a low res rusted texture. Please, guys, work on weapon textures especially Tactical Rifle and Automatic shotgun. Pump shotgun and Auger needs to be redesigned and retexturized. Some melee weapons look stunning with some of the dedicated mods. I hope with time all weapons will receive dedicated mods specifically for weapon type/family, or strictly for a given weapon so players could clutter themselves with mods rather than weapon parts.

I would like to see more scopes for weapons and holo attached independently. Holo on Tactical Rifle and Sniper Rifle looks stunning, I would only hope to attach them interchangeably rather than having them exclusively for each gun. The automatic shotgun holo looks kind of meh... please redesign it or attach the same holo from Sniper Rifle. Seriously holo from Sniper Rifle looks kickass 10/10.

Please add some vertical recoil to Assault Rifle. Doesn't have to be huge but some initial kick upwards at least after shooting more than 4 bullets. It's gone right now. Experiment with this.

I would increase the texture size of skybox or leave it under Terrain Quality. Nice skyboxes make a game look better instantly. Please work on foliage especially grass and small bushes that feel way outdated, not to mention some other plants. It's kind of strange to see the same tree planted by a player after few days. Some variety and work on trees and overall biom look is always something exciting to see. 

POIs look exceptional when it comes to complexity. Someone could work on visual look, textures, geometry a little bit. Some parts of feel like graphics around some earlier years in their complexity. Some interior art director would be great. Please update the bed and lamp sometime.

//////

I hope someone reads through my post. 7DTD is exceptional. Some of the things that make this game special. Feels more or like lifetime service. Some of the games like HoI4 and CoH2 receive updates after years too. 7DTD is a great game but some changes to keep players busy would be great. Thank You everyone.

okay i will write in parts .

1. Not rly because it can make game to easy and it is rly hard to implement ( bugs)

2. IDK

3. Well , running and reloading is hard in real life right? In L4d2 you can't run and moving is slow right? 7 dtd is trying to be more "realistic" like l4d2 or NZA. Ofc you can reload when going but when going nope. OFC cod have it with speed cola perk on zombies but it was neccesary on outbreak (bigger maps that normal). 

4. You know that a lot of people find a way to fast grind skills in previous versions ? I prefered tools like 1 -100 and if you make them more you will do it better - it was cool but balance is more important .  

5 balance is conected  more with blood moon zombies that pvp . If you want to PvP  better play conan or rust. 7DTD is more PVE with added PVP . It sound "easy" but zombies like soldier have armor too  right?  So it will be less bug if will be like it is now.

6. Ammo - Did you see Walking dead or play in resident evil? Ammo is rly worthy right? So it must be hard to get. More ammo = less demaged base. You survived? Good, now you have another 7 days to fix base , make better defens and get better stuff. And repeat and repeat . There is a lot of types of  traps so use them. If guns have a lot of ammo you propably spend less time cutting a tree to create them. So i my opionion they decide to focus on system based on " passive defence" .

7 it need time. Just look at the  diffrents in 15 and 16 and now in 19. Creating models textures. polishing things create effect programing needs time. I personaly want to implement L4D2-Rng zombie models. But if for example "important" members of this community decided to support this idea and convice a TFP they will impelment it in alpha 24 0r 25 in 2024 . So just waiting for it. Ofc they can add footprint in sand and mud conected with how heavy shoes are you wearing or add 124 models of books but is not important  as for example elimating bugs or make more  POI variants

 

[TWORDY]

TLDR but agreed, stealth and player detection is pretty broken in the current A19.4 b7 implementation. You should be able to sneak up to melee range directly behind an awake zombie, if avoiding LoS (line of sight) and not making noise, even in broad daylight. Lighting, perks and gear should just make modifiers to avoid LoS and noise. i.e. Light armor gives a small noise penalty (without mods), heavy armor gives a large noise penalty, and multiple zeds will make it more difficult to avoid LoS depending on their facing and any cover.

Would love to see a stealth system more along the lines of the old Eidos Thief series...

How do certain actions trigger zombie responses to opening chests, hitting random walls, running across the room? Stealth elements are probably one of my favorite features in every game I have ever played so far, listening to enemies' footsteps, reading sound ques, etc. My only wish is to walk slowly with an upright posture by holding a key on the keyboard instead of only crouching (making it slightly less effective compared to crouching position). This where I'm aiming at with my comprehension of stealth as a complete feature. Balancing stealth when it comes to values I would rather leave to the community because I'm not feeling strong in this one. It's definitely better than in previous alphas and continuously is being improved.

1. Not rly because it can make game to easy and it is rly hard to implement ( bugs)

It's always better to see some changes when it comes to stealth, the first attempt when it comes to adding/changing stuff is almost always full of errors. No surprises on this part. 
 

2. IDK

I'm not sure by myself. I think Penetration was left as a perk under Perception just to balance the Grand skills.

3. Well , running and reloading is hard in real life right? In L4d2 you can't run and moving is slow right? 7 dtd is trying to be more "realistic" like l4d2 or NZA. Ofc you can reload when going but when going nope. OFC cod have it with speed cola perk on zombies but it was neccesary on outbreak (bigger maps that normal). 

I'm only saying that the speed of movement with current animations (mechanics behind it), while reloading is making the game additionally look (find me proper word without getting bananned on the forum) strange, unnecessarily overcomplicated. I'm speaking solely about reloading while just walking (moving forward, left to right without running), when the character rapidly slows down without buffing a certain perk. It's overcomplicated and only makes things worse for players who actually come from some of the games You mentioned above. The point is to bring more players into 7DTD so the devs have everything to focus on the real deals for this game. I was opting to make cutting trees easier to cut with primitive tools, so the stamina isn't drained too fast. But, cutting with iron, steel tools requires perking which is a good thing. Slowing down a player while walking and reloading at the same time is just a no, nada, zero (solely my opinion with friends I'm playing with)... running and reloading simultaneously is completely another thing to look into and in the current state is totally fine to my perception of things.
 

4. You know that a lot of people find a way to fast grind skills in previous versions ? I prefered tools like 1 -100 and if you make them more you will do it better - it was cool but balance is more important .  

Well. I had been against spamcrafting back in the day and I'm glad it's over, even though I feel kind of nostalgic about that period. I'm saying that at least weapons and tools could be optionally leveled up by using them (not by making them) so the devs could possibly create some hybrid leveling up (system in combination with learning by doing and current one) as an optional game mode/progression system. Balance is always 1st with fun as You say and I agree 100%.
 

5 balance is conected  more with blood moon zombies that pvp . If you want to PvP  better play conan or rust. 7DTD is more PVE with added PVP . It sound "easy" but zombies like soldier have armor too  right?  So it will be less bug if will be like it is now.

Nobody has ever said that some damage values have to be changed in regards to Zombies. I only hope values might be revised for the PvP. Simple as that, no need for another game mode, just establishing 2 different approaches when it comes to 2 entities as Players and Undead/Animals. Progression is a tricky one, I just would probably gate stuff behind biomes and missions for the trader and that's it, so I would know whats the probability of dropping a Golden AK even from the start in a given biom or Traders mission. 

6. Ammo - Did you see Walking dead or play in resident evil? Ammo is rly worthy right? So it must be hard to get. More ammo = less demaged base. You survived? Good, now you have another 7 days to fix base , make better defens and get better stuff. And repeat and repeat . There is a lot of types of  traps so use them. If guns have a lot of ammo you propably spend less time cutting a tree to create them. So i my opionion they decide to focus on system based on " passive defence" .

Where Im heading with this is to make bullet values completely flat for BULLET type vs ARMOUR type in PvP situations. The damage would not be dependant also on weapon quality and current damage buffs included then (hitboxes might be taken into consideration actually). Just any weapon and ammo type versus armor. I wish only weapon quality would express up to 5 mods attachable/replaceable (some only exclusive) when it comes to certain guns, including durability. Against Zombies and Animals, additional buffs/bonuses may stay to make the game steeper when it comes to progression as a matter of fact. And again, it's just an idea that I'm sharing with everyone on the forum.

I know that Im probably hanging on less relevant things (I doubt my suggestions would be ground shaking) but still at least for me some of the things are turbo important for the success of this game, the studio behind it and overall happiness of playerbase. I'm just trying to address some things the best way I possibly can. Thank You guys for answering, and those who read my post for reading it.

 

[Matt115]

How do certain actions trigger zombie responses to opening chests, hitting random walls, running across the room? Stealth elements are probably one of my favorite features in every game I have ever played so far, listening to enemies' footsteps, reading sound ques, etc. My only wish is to walk slowly with an upright posture by holding a key on the keyboard instead of only crouching (making it slightly less effective compared to crouching position). This where I'm aiming at with my comprehension of stealth as a complete feature. Balancing stealth when it comes to values I would rather leave to the community because I'm not feeling strong in this one. It's definitely better than in previous alphas and continuously is being improved.

It's always better to see some changes when it comes to stealth, the first attempt when it comes to adding/changing stuff is almost always full of errors. No surprises on this part. 
 

I'm not sure by myself. I think Penetration was left as a perk under Perception just to balance the Grand skills.

I'm only saying that the speed of movement with current animations (mechanics behind it), while reloading is making the game additionally look (find me proper word without getting bananned on the forum) strange, unnecessarily overcomplicated. I'm speaking solely about reloading while just walking (moving forward, left to right without running), when the character rapidly slows down without buffing a certain perk. It's overcomplicated and only makes things worse for players who actually come from some of the games You mentioned above. The point is to bring more players into 7DTD so the devs have everything to focus on the real deals for this game. I was opting to make cutting trees easier to cut with primitive tools, so the stamina isn't drained too fast. But, cutting with iron, steel tools requires perking which is a good thing. Slowing down a player while walking and reloading at the same time is just a no, nada, zero (solely my opinion with friends I'm playing with)... running and reloading simultaneously is completely another thing to look into and in the current state is totally fine to my perception of things.
 

Well. I had been against spamcrafting back in the day and I'm glad it's over, even though I feel kind of nostalgic about that period. I'm saying that at least weapons and tools could be optionally leveled up by using them (not by making them) so the devs could possibly create some hybrid leveling up (system in combination with learning by doing and current one) as an optional game mode/progression system. Balance is always 1st with fun as You say and I agree 100%.
 

Nobody has ever said that some damage values have to be changed in regards to Zombies. I only hope values might be revised for the PvP. Simple as that, no need for another game mode, just establishing 2 different approaches when it comes to 2 entities as Players and Undead/Animals. Progression is a tricky one, I just would probably gate stuff behind biomes and missions for the trader and that's it, so I would know whats the probability of dropping a Golden AK even from the start in a given biom or Traders mission. 

Where Im heading with this is to make bullet values completely flat for BULLET type vs ARMOUR type in PvP situations. The damage would not be dependant also on weapon quality and current damage buffs included then (hitboxes might be taken into consideration actually). Just any weapon and ammo type versus armor. I wish only weapon quality would express up to 5 mods attachable/replaceable (some only exclusive) when it comes to certain guns, including durability. Against Zombies and Animals, additional buffs/bonuses may stay to make the game steeper when it comes to progression as a matter of fact. And again, it's just an idea that I'm sharing with everyone on the forum.

I know that Im probably hanging on less relevant things (I doubt my suggestions would be ground shaking) but still at least for me some of the things are turbo important for the success of this game, the studio behind it and overall happiness of playerbase. I'm just trying to address some things the best way I possibly can. Thank You guys for answering, and those who read my post for reading it.

I will make it in parts 1. Stealth- I thinking they want to make it something like - way to fast kiling zombie on road and hard hit one near POI something like suprise attack and go hard that elimante all zombie in POI.

2. Reload - yeah but it is rly hard to make it logical . I trying to support this by MARVEL style of thinking - Cpt shield is so stong because  powerful metal , iron man armor is powered by some types of particle etc You can try do it in for example cod on zombie- you can reload faster because you drink fast cola . But how it make in 7DTD? Ofc you can train in real life reloading faster but you can be 5-15% faster that before. So the best way in my opinon is ... weapons mods and new types of weapons . Just add bigger mags mode and for example find new gun like : Smg can have two versions : MP5 and P90 . P90 is faster of reload because counstruction but have smaller dmg . Hunting rifle is 1 bullet so find Springfield so you have 5 bullets in magasine right? And If you add bullet cartige you can reload faster. AK can taped mags, M60 can have diffrents size of magasine but 100 bullets give better handling that 1000  etc . Problem solved in diffrent way

3. I think Back to weapons parts like handling barrel etc with diffrent quality will be better, Tools just left unchange - just add more variants like - primitiv stone axe, smooth stone axe , primitiv iron axe , iron axe , modern iron axe, steel axe , modern steel axe, chainsaw  delux 130, chainsaw premium 130super .

4. Yeah but you forgett one thing - zombies have armors too and it will break system.  And another "Variable in formula" -  bandits . They will be someday so it  will be rly hard to balance . And quality is rly good idea - mosin nagats , k98 , m16 etc have a lot of versions . So it can be "translate" in game like - 1 rust 2 early model  3 civilian version 3 police version 4 military version 5 spec ops version. Better versions = some stats like handling recoil dmg is better  

 

[TWORDY]

I will make it in parts 1. Stealth- I thinking they want to make it something like - way to fast kiling zombie on road and hard hit one near POI something like suprise attack and go hard that elimante all zombie in POI.

Im not sure about that. Stealth already helps with taking down zombies with dmg bonuses - to me such mechanics is pretty useful and whats more important feels good against zombies.

2. Reload - yeah but it is rly hard to make it logical . I trying to support this by MARVEL style of thinking - Cpt shield is so stong because  powerful metal , iron man armor is powered by some types of particle etc You can try do it in for example cod on zombie- you can reload faster because you drink fast cola . But how it make in 7DTD? Ofc you can train in real life reloading faster but you can be 5-15% faster that before. So the best way in my opinon is ... weapons mods and new types of weapons . Just add bigger mags mode and for example find new gun like : Smg can have two versions : MP5 and P90 . P90 is faster of reload because counstruction but have smaller dmg . Hunting rifle is 1 bullet so find Springfield so you have 5 bullets in magasine right? And If you add bullet cartige you can reload faster. AK can taped mags, M60 can have diffrents size of magasine but 100 bullets give better handling that 1000  etc . Problem solved in diffrent way

3. I think Back to weapons parts like handling barrel etc with diffrent quality will be better, Tools just left unchange - just add more variants like - primitiv stone axe, smooth stone axe , primitiv iron axe , iron axe , modern iron axe, steel axe , modern steel axe, chainsaw  delux 130, chainsaw premium 130super .

4. Yeah but you forgett one thing - zombies have armors too and it will break system.  And another "Variable in formula" -  bandits . They will be someday so it  will be rly hard to balance . And quality is rly good idea - mosin nagats , k98 , m16 etc have a lot of versions . So it can be "translate" in game like - 1 rust 2 early model  3 civilian version 3 police version 4 military version 5 spec ops version. Better versions = some stats like handling recoil dmg is better  

I don`t want 7DTD to be solely focused/centered around handguns and rifles etc. I would like to have perhaps more of the weapons and mods (like anything else) just for the sake of content in order to keep the players busy, naturally, make them scavenge POIs and different biomes. Weapons as any other feature in the game should have different properties, some of them could be naturally weaker, slightly cheaper, and easier to find/craft in certain biomes, this should be the case - and it is now. 

By dedicated mods, I have in mind let's say default M60 - 50 mag size that can be extended to 100 and 200 mag size. M60 then could get overheated after splitting a huge amount of bullets etc. New mechanic equals more fun in the short and long term and the weapon becomes in some way balanced. The same could be done with M60eens custom stock that could be replaced with a better one (doesn't have to be even represented as a new 3D model in this case). To me, such an approach would add more to believability and expand the game in a good direction. Such an approach doesn`t have to be a pinpoint simulation, but represent some specific values in general (that`s actually hard to make things properly).

The thing about automatic shotgun are these facts (solely uneducated opinion and this may apply to other weapons).
- I can`t shoot even though I`m holding the fire button, I have to tap (hit the button) several times in order to shoot,
- the automatic shotgun is kind of slow without perking the weapon ability (in the early game the weapon feels slightly unresponsive - again this makes a bad impression in my humble opinion, especially for someone who just bought the game and doesn't know what's being played down here, which is gated progression),
- weapons fire speed could be better as gated behind weapon mod that could have been found only in burnt/wasteland biome or at end game.

I would like to put someday a special emphasis when it comes to bows/crossbows which are extremely fun features of any game. In my opinion, this type of weapon class should be easily available and cheaper in perking than any other type of weapon that deals with projectiles. Bows have to be treated as a separate entity and act on their own not necessarily compete with rifles in the late game.

I would not be also overly skeptical with experimenting and implementing things, especially if behind some of the stuff lies a pile of freshly printed $$$. What if first sailors thought about only the dangers and expenses of their travel, where the world would be without it?

 

[Matt115]

Im not sure about that. Stealth already helps with taking down zombies with dmg bonuses - to me such mechanics is pretty useful and whats more important feels good against zombies.

I don`t want 7DTD to be solely focused/centered around handguns and rifles etc. I would like to have perhaps more of the weapons and mods (like anything else) just for the sake of content in order to keep the players busy, naturally, make them scavenge POIs and different biomes. Weapons as any other feature in the game should have different properties, some of them could be naturally weaker, slightly cheaper, and easier to find/craft in certain biomes, this should be the case - and it is now. 

By dedicated mods, I have in mind let's say default M60 - 50 mag size that can be extended to 100 and 200 mag size. M60 then could get overheated after splitting a huge amount of bullets etc. New mechanic equals more fun in the short and long term and the weapon becomes in some way balanced. The same could be done with M60eens custom stock that could be replaced with a better one (doesn't have to be even represented as a new 3D model in this case). To me, such an approach would add more to believability and expand the game in a good direction. Such an approach doesn`t have to be a pinpoint simulation, but represent some specific values in general (that`s actually hard to make things properly).

The thing about automatic shotgun are these facts (solely uneducated opinion and this may apply to other weapons).
- I can`t shoot even though I`m holding the fire button, I have to tap (hit the button) several times in order to shoot,
- the automatic shotgun is kind of slow without perking the weapon ability (in the early game the weapon feels slightly unresponsive - again this makes a bad impression in my humble opinion, especially for someone who just bought the game and doesn't know what's being played down here, which is gated progression),
- weapons fire speed could be better as gated behind weapon mod that could have been found only in burnt/wasteland biome or at end game.

I would like to put someday a special emphasis when it comes to bows/crossbows which are extremely fun features of any game. In my opinion, this type of weapon class should be easily available and cheaper in perking than any other type of weapon that deals with projectiles. Bows have to be treated as a separate entity and act on their own not necessarily compete with rifles in the late game.

I would not be also overly skeptical with experimenting and implementing things, especially if behind some of the stuff lies a pile of freshly printed $$$. What if first sailors thought about only the dangers and expenses of their travel, where the world would be without it?

Simmlar situation like @ShellHead : If they want to have similiar setting as walking dead shotgun/hunting rifle/crossbow are a base - m60 and automatic shotguns  are against hordes , military stuff ( rpg assult guns) are against humans)  and melee is just ammo conservation when there is 2-3 zombies. If the decide to make it more into dead rising melee weapons just be better like machete could kill feral by 2 hits and  sledhammer can kill feral by 1 hit or  zombies ale bulletproff and too slowly like dying light.  In l4d2 are equal and have this same level of being usefull.

More mods will be in A20 and nope : guns  are limited by bullet ammont. It easier to find resources to make arrows that  bullets. 

Well it is problems with automatic shotgun because some put in this same bucket a styker (semiauto it shoot as fast as you put a trigger) and aa12( machine shotgun!)

Yeah compound bows and crossbows should be more powerfull but primitive is weak as it should be. But i prefer to and medival spear - high dmg, good range but weak durability. 

 

[ShellHead]

Yeah, you have to make sure the aesthetic and tone are consistent. Given 7D2D’s mixture of different post-apocalyptic inspirations, it has a wider style than other games. Mad Max meets The Walking Dead meets Night of the Living Dead (and Dawn of the Dead too likely) gives you a lot of room to play with, rusted civilian weapons and tools mixed with abandoned military hardware mixed with wasteland scavenger-tech.

as an aside, the auto shotgun is probably referring to the action being automatic, which covers both semi-auto and full auto. So it firing one shell per click, while not expected using common usage of “auto”, is completely reasonable.

 

[Matt115]

Yeah, you have to make sure the aesthetic and tone are consistent. Given 7D2D’s mixture of different post-apocalyptic inspirations, it has a wider style than other games. Mad Max meets The Walking Dead meets Night of the Living Dead (and Dawn of the Dead too likely) gives you a lot of room to play with, rusted civilian weapons and tools mixed with abandoned military hardware mixed with wasteland scavenger-tech.

as an aside, the auto shotgun is probably referring to the action being automatic, which covers both semi-auto and full auto. So it firing one shell per click, while not expected using common usage of “auto”, is completely reasonable.

For me dawn of the dead is  similiar with some ways into l4d2 (armored truck ) . But Mad Max? more metro - you know junk but in russian "stubborn" way . Yeah there is a problem with terms problems with automatic shotguns so if you  want to put in 2 grups : old one ( saw off and pumps) and new one (every else shotgun ) it will ge into second group

 

[ShellHead]

I picked dawn of the dead over l4d2 for the emphasis on looting stocked buildings and holding out but i’m sure both were influences.

Mad Max was because of the vehicles and the vaguely weird science elements, whereas metro is a touch more polished in its scrapped together items but it’s also a reasonable choice. I was thinking about what TFP was more likely to be drawing from given when 7D2D started development and that it’s an american company.

 

[Matt115]

I picked dawn of the dead over l4d2 for the emphasis on looting stocked buildings and holding out but i’m sure both were influences.

Mad Max was because of the vehicles and the vaguely weird science elements, whereas metro is a touch more polished in its scrapped together items but it’s also a reasonable choice. I was thinking about what TFP was more likely to be drawing from given when 7D2D started development and that it’s an american company.

Well armored truck from l4d2 and dawn of the dead is this same truck . Well 7DTD is more similiar to dotd and l4d2 because there is a lot of builiding , military post etc and guns looks something more like metro = junk but realistic. Mad max is more guys with strange cars with bdsm clothes . East post apo is more like brutal dirty hopless , full of saditic cults , dirty bandits , psychopats . like stalker metro pionneer but i could put here dead island and dying light before comunity updates , days gone , the division or zombie u even films like 1 terminator suit to it. West post apo is more nuclear desert with strange guns punks , a lot of colurs everywhere black humor freaks with colour hairer  etc like fallout , rage , mad max , wastelands dead rising even bordelands . 7DTD is more into this 1 category