PC Some A17 thoughts

[Roland]

1 LCB

People should focus more on this one. Some respectful convincing and explaining why one active LCB doesn’t work might make the difference.

Stamina and hunger drain

Mission accomplished. Devs are working on this and also making overeating and overdrinking show up on the UI so that players will see their stamina remain at max while their hunger reduces from 150%

Level gates

Still a WIP. By all means keep discussing ways under the new system to make level gates not necessary.

The grind of the early game

Personal preference. I love the early game. Don’t see a need to change it but those who hate it feel free to voice your objections

Locked FOV

Keep at it.

Not enough passive xp gains

Mission accomplished. They are increasing it.

Digging zombiesAI that focuses on the one weak spot

Easily cheesed pathing

Faatal repeatedly has said this is version one and that it would have new problems and new exploits from the old. I don’t see the need to rant as if these three issues are here to stay if we don’t act incredulous enough about them.

RWG

Kinyajuu has said the current isn’t final. That should end all the objections right there until we see his fixes

Inability to do large building projects from Day 1

I disagree strongly that builders should get a free pass on progression in the default game. If they want to be able to build super structures from day one then they should have to mod the game that way or play creative mode. People ask for options but whenever the building option that already exists is mentioned you are accused of being condescending...

Removal of learning by doing

Battle lost guys. Sorry. Mourn and move on. Continuing to argue and rant is pointless. The perk and point system we have now is what the game will ship with. Discussing ideas to make it better is welcome. Demanding we go back is not. Those of you who are angry will criticize TFP for not listening. Those of us who are not angry will praise TFP for sticking to their vision in the face of stiff criticism.

Practically no zombie loot

Madmole states he’s going to increase it a bit. But it will never go back to how it was. Devs are adamant and frankly enjoy the lootless zombies. I love the change, myself.

Too much xp focused on killing zombies

Balancing continues. Discussions on ideal balance are great. Rants about how it is now are futile since the way it is now will be different in the next update.

Too many dungeon POIs

Good discussion topic imo.

 

[Guppycur]

Lcb's were discussed ad nauseum when first found out about to no avail... The party line was people only wanted them to stop zombie spawns, which is immensely retarded because that wasn't ever their purpose prior to a17 so in essence that was the pimps own fault.

Bedroll should do that, as before, and lcb should be what it was intended for.

...dunno what the logic was in changing it to its current state, but it's one of those things that was replaced despite it never being broken in the first place.

Someone used valuable coding time to change something that worked fine. For. No. Explainable. Reason.

The "change" broke large pve servers, and REALLY fracked pvp servers.

For. No. Explainable. Reason.

Hope this helps, and btw, I couldn't give less ♥♥♥♥ about lcb's, I immediately toss them on spawn.

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Oh, ad static loot containers to your list. It's dumb and serves about as much purpose as all of those pallets... No, those have mats, like concrete ... So static loot containers are even more useless.

Every dungeon poi essentially looks the same.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

Also, go watch a clip of Gordon Ramsy to see when I think about your statement, while I teach to to prove a suppression with incidental evidence.
Triangle island is not involved in any quest, it has one type of random enemy, who, does not attack you, and stays invisible until you do something to him. He has one attack, which is a time based decay death, he is vulnerable to one attack, doom or something, which is also death, he gives out more esper points then any other character in the game, before or after the ruin, and ONLY esper points. If you go their without the proper spell, you either do nothing to him and keep missing, or if you use some spells, he wakes up and kills you. If you don't go there, nothing happens... no quest is lost... it literally doesn't need to be in the game... it's a *shhhh shhhh* a secrete.

Roland: But you can't be sure... and you can't summarize without knowing something for absolutely sure.

Here's another cookie. Would you like milk? It was common practice back then to put helpers in for your players. Even the Nintendo Power Strategy guides told you to go to those place to exactly that... level really quickly. And arcades... didn't have those kinds of tricks because... *shhh another secrete* they wanted you quarters.

Roland: That's still not proof.

FINE! Here's another cookie. You really want those... |cookies... Roland...|. See there's two lines there...

Skill trees were first truly introduced with Diablo to try to increase difficulty. Sometimes you had to chose between one aspect of character design or another... but the tree was more or less designed to be filled out as you reached the end... the games wasn't open world, although you could go back to previous areas. It was meant to be played a crawler, and tailored its mechanics as such.

Roland: Which is what 7DtD is doing.

Shhh shhh, here's another cookie. There was no level requirements, except to get the points. Building games like Warcraft, the first one, had level specific gates, you could only build such and such when you build so and so... and this was used do to the limitation of diverse resources. You had trees, gold, food, gas, crystals, whatever... usually only two or three. Instead of needing to go out and find a special McGuffin to make progress, they made you build something... upgrading was added to give you a slight edge.

You see... Trees were invented to advance character development for epic boss battles... gates where invented to simplify resource management... Trees where augmented with cascading unlockables... but still meant to be used to prepare for boss battles. Every other enemy was usually rubber-banded to keep the player engaged, but not overly swamped.

Then Fallout 1 and 2 happened... created by interplay... and they tried to combine the two... and... secrete secrete... it worked. AND ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE JUMPED ON THE BAND WAGON. Fallout 3 happened, it moved from a top down to first person... things stated to hemorrhage, New Vargas gave it a shot in the arm... Fallout 4 made it much worse, they tried to add a building aspect that is really... bad...

Before you say anything, here's another cookie... if 7 Days is Walking Dead, meets Fallout, meets tower defense, meets whatever... it's attempting to combine several distinct genre with their own distinct mechanics... none of which were designed to work with one another... Gating supposes a need to hold the player back so not to leap forward due to lake of diversity... Skill trees are designed to enhance rubber banding and prepare a player for epic battles in a linear progression... tower defense had upgradeable installations to ward off waves off attacks, but rewards successful warding off... limiting abilities like caring space, quality of craftables, weight, are carrot and stick techniques utilized to compel a player to improve their abilities instead of hunkering down... and states like agility and perception, are first person stat sheets designed to specialize a character into a particular class...

At the moment... every one of those competing mechanics... are being consolidated into one progression matrix... it not a stat sheet, not quite a tree, not really a cascading perk table... it is literally... nothing... it is nothing it needs to be to do everything it wants to. It's 30 years of game design... in 5 or 6 genres... trying to boil itself down to 4 or 5 character building pages...

Roland: Fun Pimps is working this stuff out, blah blah blah-be-blah...

I just gave you the cliff notes version of of stuff it's taken my entire life to learn... get your own damn cookie.

- - - Updated - - -

It was a joke, but not for your benefit... In comedy, you would be called the subject.

---edit---

I'm betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is, "you can't be reasoned with, I'm out."

Very much agree with you here on all these points, very well said too.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

People should focus more on this one. Some respectful convincing and explaining why one active LCB doesn’t work might make the difference.
Mission accomplished. Devs are working on this and also making overeating and overdrinking show up on the UI so that players will see their stamina remain at max while their hunger reduces from 150%

Still a WIP. By all means keep discussing ways under the new system to make level gates not necessary.

Personal preference. I love the early game. Don’t see a need to change it but those who hate it feel free to voice your objections

Keep at it.

Mission accomplished. They are increasing it.

Faatal repeatedly has said this is version one and that it would have new problems and new exploits from the old. I don’t see the need to rant as if these three issues are here to stay if we don’t act incredulous enough about them.

Kinyajuu has said the current isn’t final. That should end all the objections right there until we see his fixes

I disagree strongly that builders should get a free pass on progression in the default game. If they want to be able to build super structures from day one then they should have to mod the game that way or play creative mode. People ask for options but whenever the building option that already exists is mentioned you are accused of being condescending...

Battle lost guys. Sorry. Mourn and move on. Continuing to argue and rant is pointless. The perk and point system we have now is what the game will ship with. Discussing ideas to make it better is welcome. Demanding we go back is not. Those of you who are angry will criticize TFP for not listening. Those of us who are not angry will praise TFP for sticking to their vision in the face of stiff criticism.

Madmole states he’s going to increase it a bit. But it will never go back to how it was. Devs are adamant and frankly enjoy the lootless zombies. I love the change, myself.

Balancing continues. Discussions on ideal balance are great. Rants about how it is now are futile since the way it is now will be different in the next update.

Good discussion topic imo.

Very well said Roland, I think a lot of topics could be considered squashed at this point and we could focus on improving the existing ones.

So for the perk system, why not split your "Perk Points" so that they can be properly distrubuted instead of a consolodated 1 level 1 perk for anything.

You get passive xp for mining, you get perk points for that type and all types related too it.

Same for combat

Same for medical.

ect

ect

ect

Its "Sort of" the same as learning by doing while keeping the new system in place.

 

[Aldranon]

Both skyrim and fallout are story driven and therefore helps the player through the progression.That way the gates are not so obvious.

Also If you ventured to far away you would get slaughtered by high tire enemies and learned the hard way to get back to story progression.

7dtd dont have a story or high tire areas. Just unreversable game stage.

I'm eager for any nicely done, primary storyline. I would also like secondary "living storylines", something that uses what the player does as fodder for the stories sub-plot directions. Maybe even change the entire main plot, if the player focuses on a certain path/play-style enough. (I.E. Attack the good guy faction enough).

I would say the wasteland biome is a type of danger zone. Maybe it's not so extreme as some Skyrim areas, but living in the wasteland biome will get you a LOT of leather!

 

[Exxodous]

I'm not even accusing you of being drunk on koolaid this time. I'm simply saying you are trying way too hard to argue, and making it abundantly clear you're not even trying to listen.
You, gazz, and mm. Team obstinacy. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

I said lots of people love it; I fully acknowledge that. You are failing to acknowledge that lots of people hate it.

While I acknowledge many people hate it, the question I have is - how do you "fix" what they hate without "breaking" what others love?

I'll give an example:

I've seen some people post that they hate that it take 4 or 5 arrows to kill a zombie in the beginning of the game. Their reasons seem to revolve around the fact that it is unrealistic and grindy.

I on the other hand feel that if I can one shot a zombie from the start there is no point in progressing to better skills or weapons/mods. Thus I like the mechanic/progression.

I don't claim either opinion is right or wrong, just different. What I don't understand is how they mesh the two opinions into an enjoyable experience for both. And this is just one mechanic that a simple (and by simple I mean I can do it) XML modification will change.

I'll give an example where I don't align with TFP:

They chose a small backpack to start with encumbrance. I've seen many who love the difficult decisions you must make with limited space.

Me? While I acknowledge my 80 slot mod makes the game easier, I abhor not being able to collect my stuff lol. I see the "survival" challenge and even think encumbrance makes sense, the small backpack does not work for me.

Two very different playstyles for sure. How do you make the vanilla version appeal to both?

Multiply this by the 100's of varied opinions, playstyles and game mechanics and I can tell you I sure do not envy TFP at all.

Thank god for mods is all I can say, hopefully everyone can find a modder whose vision more aligns with their opinion of fun. I look forward to playing the next version of Medieval and RH but I'll probably mod those too just as I have in the past because sometimes I really wonder what you guys were smoking when implementing some of the mechanics you put in

 

[Sergoros]

People should focus more on this one. Some respectful convincing and explaining why one active LCB doesn’t work might make the difference.

Honestly, I am shocked that this is how it is. Devs reject any discussions on the claim topic. They only give throw away explanations, aka "claims are difficult topic", or "we just didnt want people to claim cities".

And then ignore all the rest of the conversation. How can you have a discussion without back and forth? Should we just create 100 claim topics, and talk with devs in titles of said topics? There was Zero valid explanations why we can't have multiple claim blocks. The only one explanation I saw is 1 post of gazz talking about claiming cities and him not liking ppl building big.

Gazz then ignored the rest of the conversation giving away dozens of good solutions, that would save cities and wouldnt destroy builder community in the game.

How can we talk?

You can scream into darkness only so much, before you lose hope. And most of my friends Did lose hope.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

Honestly, I am shocked that this is how it is. Devs reject any discussions on the claim topic. They only give throw away explanations, aka "claims are difficult topic", or "we just didnt want people to claim cities".
And then ignore all the rest of the conversation. How can you have a discussion without back and forth? Should we just create 100 claim topics, and talk with devs in titles of said topics? There was Zero valid explanations why we can't have multiple claim blocks. The only one explanation I saw is 1 post of gazz talking about claiming cities and him not liking ppl building big.

Gazz then ignored the rest of the conversation giving away dozens of good solutions, that would save cities and wouldnt destroy builder community in the game.

How can we talk?

You can scream into darkness only so much, before you lose hope. And most of my friends Did lose hope.

Honestly they worked very well before, why break what wasn't broken.

 

[JoelleEmmily]

While I acknowledge many people hate it, the question I have is - how do you "fix" what they hate without "breaking" what others love?
I'll give an example:

I've seen some people post that they hate that it take 4 or 5 arrows to kill a zombie in the beginning of the game. Their reasons seem to revolve around the fact that it is unrealistic and grindy.

I on the other hand feel that if I can one shot a zombie from the start there is no point in progressing to better skills or weapons/mods. Thus I like the mechanic/progression.

I don't claim either opinion is right or wrong, just different. What I don't understand is how they mesh the two opinions into an enjoyable experience for both. And this is just one mechanic that a simple (and by simple I mean I can do it) XML modification will change.

I'll give an example where I don't align with TFP:

They chose a small backpack to start with encumbrance. I've seen many who love the difficult decisions you must make with limited space.

Me? While I acknowledge my 80 slot mod makes the game easier, I abhor not being able to collect my stuff lol. I see the "survival" challenge and even think encumbrance makes sense, the small backpack does not work for me.

Two very different playstyles for sure. How do you make the vanilla version appeal to both?

Multiply this by the 100's of varied opinions, playstyles and game mechanics and I can tell you I sure do not envy TFP at all.

Thank god for mods is all I can say, hopefully everyone can find a modder whose vision more aligns with their opinion of fun. I look forward to playing the next version of Medieval and RH but I'll probably mod those too just as I have in the past because sometimes I really wonder what you guys were smoking when implementing some of the mechanics you put in

I don't know why, but the encumbrance hasn't effect me all that much, though I tend to loot very little, and the stamina and what have you, not really a factor... I guess I'm used to games who penalize you heavily for that kind of stuff. And I find combat super easy... I always thought I was really bad at first person shooters... maybe I'm not so bad?

The Zombies magically knowing what blocks to go for is kinda annoying... and the fact that they avoid spikes and stuff... But I have an idea about that...

In the african forest, herders coral their sheep/goats into thorn bushes/fences in order to protect them from cheetahs... if the zeds avoid them... maybe they can by used as a repellent of sorts... or maybe they could be used to channel them away from areas... I donno...

What do you all think?

 

[Roland]

I'm betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is, "you can't be reasoned with, I'm out."

I’m betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is that I’ve found Kubikus’ sister....

If he couldn’t get a rise out of me with his debate style you have no prayer.

Since you’re out, why not play a bit of FF6 for old time’s sake and blow off some steam.

 

[Rager]

Honestly they worked very well before, why break what wasn't broken.

It could be they have more plans for it in the future. That this is all they did with it for right now, and what they want to do later on will be much better?

*shrugs*

 

[Roland]

Honestly, I am shocked that this is how it is. Devs reject any discussions on the claim topic. They only give throw away explanations, aka "claims are difficult topic", or "we just didnt want people to claim cities".
And then ignore all the rest of the conversation. How can you have a discussion without back and forth? Should we just create 100 claim topics, and talk with devs in titles of said topics? There was Zero valid explanations why we can't have multiple claim blocks. The only one explanation I saw is 1 post of gazz talking about claiming cities and him not liking ppl building big.

Gazz then ignored the rest of the conversation giving away dozens of good solutions, that would save cities and wouldnt destroy builder community in the game.

How can we talk?

You can scream into darkness only so much, before you lose hope. And most of my friends Did lose hope.

You create more threads and keep talking about it just like was done with level gates. Whats hard to understand? This game is his baby and he isn’t going to be instantly open to someone else telling him how to raise his baby. But he often comes around when a hot topic gains traction and especially if he is leaning in the same direction. You can complain about why he doesn’t listen as well as he could or you can get to posting compelling arguments that don’t include talking about how stupid and idiotic the change was. Talk about how it hurts gameplay for builders—especially on nonPVP servers where people want to build multiple structures to showcase but must leave them unprotected to griefers.

 

[Guppycur]

@exx

Using your bow example, for uh, example...

Yeh, it makes total sense that a bow you JUST crafted out of random ingredients you found on the ground sucks and should take many arrows to fell a zombie... But what /doesn't/ make sense is that SAME BOW suddenly delivers accurate death blows because you bought some points...

...making a better bow would.

...finding a better bow would.

But magic points likely gained by bashing zombies with a club?

It's weird, and a great example of how an item quality system is /better/.

Right now I make one bow, one club, and one stone axe. The entire game.

Because there is no reasonable incentive to make or find more.

Mods? Can't even use them for so long, that they're a joke.

So how about instead:

Two tiered item system, "crafted" and "found".

Crafted will get you q1 and q2, found will get you q4 and q5.

Note q3 is missing... You need a gap between the two large enough to make it a meaningful find.

Q6? That's your modded items.

Just an example of how a meaningful quality system can be balanced.

 

[Exxodous]

I don't know why, but the encumbrance hasn't effect me all that much, though I tend to loot very little, and the stamina and what have you, not really a factor... I guess I'm used to games who penalize you heavily for that kind of stuff. And I find combat super easy... I always thought I was really bad at first person shooters... maybe I'm not so bad?
The Zombies magically knowing what blocks to go for is kinda annoying... and the fact that they avoid spikes and stuff... But I have an idea about that...

In the african forest, herders coral their sheep/goats into thorn bushes/fences in order to protect them from cheetahs... if the zeds avoid them... maybe they can by used as a repellent of sorts... or maybe they could be used to channel them away from areas... I donno...

What do you all think?

Not sure why you quoted me in your post....Maybe we've just become that chummy

On topic to your post. I agree, encumbrance didn't affect me much either, I just ran slower lol, however I always want more space so I installed a modlet. Didn't complain, rant or rave. Just fixed my "perceived" problem and moved on.

I too find combat pretty easy, but at the same time more reliable than in 16 which is why it probably seems easier to me.

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I’m betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is that I’ve found Kubikus’ sister....

Now that is FUNNY!

 

[Guppycur]

Oh, and don't do something as retarded as making it harder to use high quality items early game just for the sake of "slowing progression".

If I find a goddang purple shovel on day 1, so fracking be it.

 

[Roland]

It could be they have more plans for it in the future. That this is all they did with it for right now, and what they want to do later on will be much better?
*shrugs*

If that’s true they are playing it very close to the vest. I haven’t heard anything and trust me if I had I would’ve said as much to help alleviate the anger backnwhen the patch notes released and it became one of the first hot topics. Even if I couldn’t reveal the exact plans I would’ve said they’ve got something planned.

 

[JoelleEmmily]

I’m betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is that I’ve found Kubikus’ sister....
If he couldn’t get a rise out of me with his debate style you have no prayer.

Since you’re out, why not play a bit of FF6 for old time’s sake and blow off some steam.

Not trying to get a rise out of you dude... just saying I no longer care about what you have to say... You are non-viable.

But Final Fantasy 6 is a good idea. But I have to test my prickle bush hypothesis first.

 

[Exxodous]

@exx
Using your bow example, for uh, example...

Yeh, it makes total sense that a bow you JUST crafted out of random ingredients you found on the ground sucks and should take many arrows to fell a zombie... But what /doesn't/ make sense is that SAME BOW suddenly delivers accurate death blows because you bought some points...

...making a better bow would.

...finding a better bow would.

But magic points likely gained by bashing zombies with a club?

It's weird, and a great example of how an item quality system is /better/.

Right now I make one bow, one club, and one stone axe. The entire game.

Because there is no reasonable incentive to make or find more.

Mods? Can't even use them for so long, that they're a joke.

So how about instead:

Two tiered item system, "crafted" and "found".

Crafted will get you q1 and q2, found will get you q4 and q5.

Note q3 is missing... You need a gap between the two large enough to make it a meaningful find.

Q6? That's your modded items.

Just an example of how a meaningful quality system can be balanced.

@Guppy

I totally agree with most of what your saying. I would prefer a system more along those line. Or one that penalizes you for repairing in some way. The old system stunk IMO btw, but one q6 bow does in fact mean "end game" for that item. So some system that forces you to find a new or create a new q6 bow would be "better"

That still doesn't change the fact it is difficult to balance any system for the "far left" and the "far right" (disclaimer: Not a political statement, just the only way I could describe the difference) Those who want the best weapon, all the time would not like a system like that.

 

[Sergoros]

You create more threads and keep talking about it just like was done with level gates. Whats hard to understand? This game is his baby and he isn’t going to be instantly open to someone else telling him how to raise his baby. But he often comes around when a hot topic gains traction and especially if he is leaning in the same direction. You can complain about why he doesn’t listen as well as he could or you can get to posting compelling arguments that don’t include talking about how stupid and idiotic the change was. Talk about how it hurts gameplay for builders—especially on nonPVP servers where people want to build multiple structures to showcase but must leave them unprotected to griefers.

You do realise, that this is Very obstinate? We basically have to treat him with kid gloves and just pray to gods, that he reads our topics. Sure, I can send you an army of obstinate children here on this forum. They would whine and scream how they want claim blocks fixed. This is how this game development actually Works? Seriously?

There were plenty of polite and rational suggestions for Gazz. But now I am not even sure if he read them. If this is just the question of him being obstinate...man...this is depressing...

 

[Exxodous]

Oh, and don't do something as retarded as making it harder to use high quality items early game just for the sake of "slowing progression".
If I find a goddang purple shovel on day 1, so fracking be it.

Didn't like this mechanic in A16 either....