PC Some A17 thoughts

Moving on... and continuing from where I left off...
So...

Historically, point awarded level progression, as well as level gating, because they kinda go hand in hand, has been used to pad a game's play time. Take Final Fantasy 6 for example. Someone on the design team knew grinding for esper points would be tedious, and very not fun, so they placed a triangle shaped island up in the corner where you could easily one cast kill a creature for a load of points. The entire series even has a name for it, power peninsulas. Even Chrono Trigger had one. Not an RPG, and not used for power levelling, but Super Metroid had those bat pot things, you could stand there, and restore most of your health and bombs.

Why those three examples? Because they're beloved games that've stood the test of time. People still play them today, and someone on the dev team, thought the grind, or the scarcity, or whatever, was annoying enough to put in a trick for players to use. And they HAD TO, because carts couldn't be patched or modded. Now days, it seems like studios are externating their games flaws onto the consumer. "Don't like something? Mod it yourself." "Fixing that bug would be too much work, and cut into our profits. Let the community fix it."

Studios are apparently afraid to release a game with a short playthrough, or a rapid progression system, because they think the hours engaged by such trappings, are hours engaged... but they're not... they're hours the player is doing something they DO NOT enjoy, for the ability to do something they do.
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This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.

This also assumes people don’t enjoy the early game where you are scraping by with trash gear and weak abilities. You don’t enjoy it. I do. We cancel each other out. Who else you got?

I don’t play for hours doing something I don’t enjoy. I enjoy the actual journey of progressing from weak to strong. I like playing for a time with no pack mule so that when I do purchase a rank I feel the difference.

 
Oh my God, lots of people don't like the version, lots of people do... Rather than spinning your wheels defensively arguing how great it is, spend that time determining if the "vocal minority" has a point...

...be the 13th man... This could literally be a make it or break it moment for the company going forward, don't squander it over pride...

 
This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.
This also assumes people don’t enjoy the early game where you are scraping by with trash gear and weak abilities. You don’t enjoy it. I do. We cancel each other out. Who else you got?

I don’t play for hours doing something I don’t enjoy. I enjoy the actual journey of progressing from weak to strong. I like playing for a time with no pack mule so that when I do purchase a rank I feel the difference.
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Im fine scrapping and struggling but the tedious grinding on zed it what bores me to death.

The first hour of the game is usually spent with me grinding snowberry/yucca and feathers/rocks/wood in preparation because once I've crafted all the arrows im going to craft, I don't want to go back to that, I want to move forward with my game, not take steps back because zed take too many head shots to kill, and I land my head shots very consistently.

I cringe seeing a lumberjack, fat granny, bloated zed, fat Hawaiian zed ect, because I know they're going to sponge up a ridiculous amount of arrows, and wooden spikes are too weak to really be feasible, Sometimes I just run from them, but they are everywhere and I have to kill them at some point especially if I want to loot a building.

Hell, it takes more than 1 shot from a .762 caliber hunting rifle even if its a headshot, that shouldn't be possible, nor should zed be walking around with 7 arrows sticking out of their head while still chasing me at a snails pace.

It feels like it will always take my 3-4 headshots on normal zed and 7-10 on the meatier ones.

When I think of progressivly getting stronger and beter, I think of "Im starting to take 2 arrows to headshot which means eventually it can be down to 1, which means that the ones that took 7-10 may now take 4-6 and so on.

Better/stronger bows and arrows should accomplish that, yet it doesn't, So I have to *Sigh* Grind more fking arrows.

In A16.4 I had just that, I had a noticeable slow progressive change that showed my character was getting stronger, which meant doing less of the tedious grinding, and more of the fun exploration.

You'd start to harvest more materials, you'd require less arrows to kill on headshot, That should have stayed because it was a passive increase, where as right now I am forced to spend points on something I won't use late game which means I don't want to spend points on it at all.

Also Roland, not many people want to play like a damn masochist. lol

 
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This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.
This also assumes people don’t enjoy the early game where you are scraping by with trash gear and weak abilities. You don’t enjoy it. I do. We cancel each other out. Who else you got?

I don’t play for hours doing something I don’t enjoy. I enjoy the actual journey of progressing from weak to strong. I like playing for a time with no pack mule so that when I do purchase a rank I feel the difference.
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Oh my great giddy god, you don't give up on the empty rhetoric do you... You asked for it...

Do you know what FF6 would be without random encounters? The same game.

Terra, wakes up: Where am I, I don't know I am.

Locke: You're in my bed, and I'm a thief, is that cool?

Terra: I donno, maybe?

Locke: It's not safe here, supposedly, lets go to my friends house. He's a prince.

Terra: Okay I guess...

Walk walk walk walk

Locke: OH NO! SCRIPTED ENCOUNTER!!

Drurururur do do do do, do-do do-do da da da, da da da, NU! NU! NU!

Terra: Yay! We won!

Nuh nuh nuh-nuh nuh nuh-nuh!

Walk walk walk walk

Locke: Did I mention my friend was a prince?

Terra: Yeah?

Walk walk walk walk

Locke: OH NO! A CAMP! WITH THAT CRAZY KEFKA DUDE!

Kafaka: Wuhuhuhuhu something crazy.

Locke: We have to sneak by.

Terra: Okay...

Drurururur do do do do,

Locke: OH NO! SCRIPTED MAGITECH ARMOUR ENCOUNTER!

Shhhhhhhhthewwwwwww swing

Locke: Oh the pain, I've been hit.

Terra, uwwwwwwwww thpuff.

Locke: OH MY GOD! YOU CAN USE MAGIC!

Terra: I guess?

Locke: Let's go tell Edger... or whatever his name was

Walk walk

Edger: I'm a prince. Want to see my bedroom?

Terra: Not really?

Edger... maybe: Okay, maybe later. Kafka, you can't hurt us. SUBMERGE!

shhhhhhhhhhhh travel travel travel travel

Edger: We should go to that town for whatever reason.

Everyone else: Okay lets go!

Walk walk walk walk.

Someone: So what it like wearing a slave crown?

Terra: Enslaving...

Someone: That cool...

OH NO! SCRIPTED TUNNEL DIGGING ATTACK!

The other prince... the meathead: WHAT!? She can use magic??

Locke: Yeah, you didn't know?

Walk walk walk walk

Locke: Look over there, it's a mysterious man in black.

Shadow... or that might've been his dog's name: Yes, I am a mysterious man in back... and I have a dog that might be named shadow.

Locke: Wanna join us? We beat up bad guys.

Shadow: Sure.

walk walk walk

Locke: You're that general jerk.

What's her name: Yeah, but they beat me up, so you can totally trust me.

Walk walk walk, looooooooots more stuff

SCREECH!!!! FLIES AWAY.

Locke: Crap, no we have to go to Zozo.

walk walk walk

What's her name: Oh my hero, so far away now, will I ever see your smile...

STUPID SQUID ATTACK! I THINK! AT THIS POINT

Edger: We defeated him... man was he a jerk.

walk walk walk

Zozo dude: We're creepy.

walk walk walk, do stuff

Terra: I'm all batter now

LITERALLY HOURS LATER WITHOUT RANDOM ENCOUNTERS!!!

Utoro... or whatever that squids name is... painter girl... old man... backstory backstory backstory.. router base... stuff stuff stuff... floating island...

Kefka: RUN RUN RUN OR YOU'LL BE WELL DONE.

Emperor short sighted: But no one will be left to rule over...

Kefka: I'LL BE EMPEROR OF NOTHING

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwshhhhhhhhhh death destruction... the world reshaping... more stuff... change of music.

Celese?: Oh no Sids sick...

Player: OH MY GOD! IT'S ONLY HALF OVER!!!

Roland: But without the random encounters, what would be the point in the game.

Me: Pat pat, pat pat. Here's a cookie, you should rest.

 
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Oh my God, lots of people don't like the version, lots of people do... Rather than spinning your wheels defensively arguing how great it is, spend that time determining if the "vocal minority" has a point...
...be the 13th man... This could literally be a make it or break it moment for the company going forward, don't squander it over pride...
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You will never make everyone happy. I did not enjoy the older versions and did not play as much as I do with this version. Is it perfect? Nah, but I understand people don't like it. I don't try to change people minds about it. We all like what we like.

Would it suck for me if it changed back? Ya, but I am not going to blame players or be upset if it did. My point is that, I feel gaming companies should disagree at times with players and it is ok to do it without being too worried.

If people don't like this version, update it until they do. If they always miss the older version and you don't want to go back to it. Nothing you can do about it, because changing it back people would be upset also.

We are still in the alpha stages of the game and moving forward I am sure things will get tweaked. I am sure the devs are understanding the points of the flaws of a17 and will tweak it. I just see people want the old system back, and i don't think that is good feedback moving forward as how can we get this system to work for you better.

 
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You will never make everyone happy. I did not enjoy the older versions and did not play as much as I do with this version. Is it perfect? Nah, but I understand people don't like it. I don't try to change people minds about it. We all like what we like.

Would it suck for me if it changed back? Ya, but I am not going to blame players or be upset if it did. My point is that, I feel gaming companies should disagree at times with players and it is ok to do it without being too worried.

If people don't like this version, update it until they do. If they always miss the older version and you don't want to go back to it. Nothing you can do about it, because changing it back people would be upset also.

My point is that, We are still in the alpha stages of the game and moving forward I am sure things will get tweaked. I am sure the devs are understanding the points of the flaws of a17 and will tweak it. I just see people want the old system back, and i don't think that is good feedback moving forward as how can we get this system to work for you better.
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Just reduce some of the tedious early game grinding, I shouldn't have to do 3 head shots every single damn zed.

 
Just reduce some of the tedious early game grinding, I shouldn't have to do 3 head shots every single damn zed.
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I just use clubs myself. I only use my bow when I really have to with less risk, early game I feel using a melee weapon and having your bow as backup will save you lots more time, than just pure bow because like you said 3 head shots stink.

 
This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.
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Also, don't become a detective... or a researcher... If you can't put two and two together to make four... you lost a hand and at least two fingers.

 
This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.
This also assumes people don’t enjoy the early game where you are scraping by with trash gear and weak abilities. You don’t enjoy it. I do. We cancel each other out. Who else you got?

I don’t play for hours doing something I don’t enjoy. I enjoy the actual journey of progressing from weak to strong. I like playing for a time with no pack mule so that when I do purchase a rank I feel the difference.
Click to expand...
100% with you, it's nice to reach end game but the moment diminishing returns start to kick in it gets a little stale, happens in every game though unless you got something to farm like in arpgs.

If you want to prolong gameplay don't make basic things slower (slower construction tools, stamina always getting in the way, etc) make stuff harder to get, give us item quality back, give us books back and make a multi layered progression system, our only mission shouldn't be to kill zombies for skill ups, it's survival, some times you fight some times you don't, those who always pick up fights don't live long.

 
Oh my God, lots of people don't like the version, lots of people do... Rather than spinning your wheels defensively arguing how great it is, spend that time determining if the "vocal minority" has a point...
...be the 13th man... This could literally be a make it or break it moment for the company going forward, don't squander it over pride...
Click to expand...
I don’t know what that’s about. I’m sorry I like A17 better than A16? Roland CAN’T be sharing his true feelings of enjoyment and fun for the newest version. He MUST be shilling for the company.

Do I want it to be better? Of course I do. But I’ve already read plans by devs to make it better so I’m not worried. I’m glad they removed level gates from the attributes. The current level gates on certain recipes are lower than where they were when the game first released.

I know that stamina and passive xp gains aren’t good but that battle is won since Joel agrees and is retooling those things so ranting on and on about those things is pointless. RWG is also undergoing changes.

Finally....learn by doing...as far as I know that ship has sailed. The current version is what they plan to go gold with and I DO find it fun to purchase perks and I do feel it offers great choice. Sue me.

 
I don’t know what that’s about. I’m sorry I like A17 better than A16? Roland CAN’T be sharing his true feelings of enjoyment and fun for the newest version. He MUST be shilling for the company.
Do I want it to be better? Of course I do. But I’ve already read plans by devs to make it better so I’m not worried. I’m glad they removed level gates from the attributes. The current level gates on certain recipes are lower than where they were when the game first released.

I know that stamina and passive xp gains aren’t good but that battle is won since Joel agrees and is retooling those things so ranting on and on about those things is pointless. RWG is also undergoing changes.

Finally....learn by doing...as far as I know that ship has sailed. The current version is what they plan to go gold with and I DO find it fun to purchase perks and I do feel it offers great choice. Sue me.
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You are not alone in finding it fun, and I think people tend to forget that it is still a alpha. I look forward to the future.

 
I'm not even accusing you of being drunk on koolaid this time. I'm simply saying you are trying way too hard to argue, and making it abundantly clear you're not even trying to listen.

You, gazz, and mm. Team obstinacy. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

I said lots of people love it; I fully acknowledge that. You are failing to acknowledge that lots of people hate it.

 
Also, don't become a detective... or a researcher... If you can't put two and two together to make four... you lost a hand and at least two fingers.
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So you have a low tolerance to respectful disagreement. You pouted, then you got sarcastic and passive aggressive, then you ranted some bizarre dialogue from FF6, and now you’ve progressed to ad hominem (although in light of your Latin you’ll probably claim it’s all just joking)

All I have pointed out is that there are games with gating that are successful. I even told you straight out that Fallout is an inspirational source for this game. It is perfectly fine to discuss how you would like to improve the current system but please try not to have a melt down when someone doesn’t agree with you.

 
I'm not even accusing you of being drunk on koolaid this time. I'm simply saying you are trying way too hard to argue, and making it abundantly clear you're not even trying to listen.
You, gazz, and mm. Team obstinacy. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

I said lots of people love it; I fully acknowledge that. You are failing to acknowledge that lots of people hate it.
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I hereby acknowledge that lots of people hate it. Duh.

I even know what they hate:

1 LCB

Stamina and hunger drain

Level gates

The grind of the early game

Locked FOV

Not enough passive xp gains

Digging zombies

Broken RWG

AI that focuses on the one weak spot

Easily cheesed pathing

Inability to do large building projects from Day 1

Removal of learning by doing

Practically no zombie loot

Too much xp focused on killing zombies

Too many dungeon POIs

 
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So Roland you say Madmole is not telling the Truth? he said few days ago in another thread to me i should and could mod it if i dont like how the Devs Vision of Alpha 17 is, but if i cannot mod it cause the Devs dont add the needed things cause they dont share the Priorities to mod it then Madmole was not telling the truth.

Cause i cannot mod something if i cannot add a Description to something so Players understand what this item is needed for or how it works.

So no its not easy to understand, cause we are not talking about months of development, adding such a simple thing would not take much time and it would make modding much easier and user friendly.
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Isn't it already possible to change the localization files they sdx modding? I could swear some mods have already done so, perhaps I am wrong tho.

 
I hereby acknowledge that lots of people hate it. Duh.
I even know what they hate:

1 LCB

Stamina and hunger drain

Level gates

The grind of the early game

Locked FOV

Not enough passive xp gains

Digging zombies

Broken RWG

AI that focuses on the one weak spot

Easily cheesed pathing

Inability to do large building projects from Day 1

Removal of learning by doing

Practically no zombie loot

Too much xp focused on killing zombies

Too many dungeon POIs
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To cite what I don't like about this list.

1 LCB for multiplayer. It doesn't matter to me in single.

Early game grind (Because its literally just too tedious and has forced point spending )

Not learning by doing.

To much emphasis on killing zed for XP when it takes 3 headshots or more to kill zed early game. 3 headshots is just too much for default difficulty when crafting a much better bow and using steel arrowheads (something you can find a few of even at level 1 ) does not increase your damage enough to lower it to 2.

Why bother? Why also bother with 10%+ more IAS? So I can waste my ammo 10% faster? At a certain point of IAS my personal ability to aim for headshots consistently will not be able to fully utilize the IAS from the perks.

Also wooden spikes are just too damn weak and don't justify their wood cost anymore.

Too many "GOTCHA!" Moments, zed are hidden everywhere in corners and out of sight places on purpose, in rafters/ceilings. Its very annoying! If that was only the case for "Some POI's randomly" but freaks sake, not ALL of them.

Level gates- Don't really care as long as it doesn't involve the forge, I understand it being around concrete/steel and bullet/gun production.

Stam/Hunger Drain- Don't care but the softcap needs to be adjusted, it drains too fast IMO.

Locked FOV- I couldn't care less.

Digging Zed- Couldn't really care less, but they attack to fast when they kneel. Adjust imo.

Broken RWG- Don't really notice it.

Easily cheesed pathing- Couldn't care less.

Inability of large projects by day 1. Err.. what?

No zed Loot- Actually the change for zed loot being more rare and better is a great change!

Dungeon POIs- Eh, those are fun to explore though especially if they have lots of hidden areas with great loot stashes!

I just use clubs myself. I only use my bow when I really have to with less risk, early game I feel using a melee weapon and having your bow as backup will save you lots more time, than just pure bow because like you said 3 head shots stink.
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But that isn't how I want to play, why should I be forced to melee so early when I have very limited healing abilities to compensate for taking damage in close quarters?

I take damage, I get chased forever by vultures.

 
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Isn't it already possible to change the localization files they sdx modding? I could swear some mods have already done so, perhaps I am wrong tho.
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They don't push from the server. That's his point. They need client installs (like sdx mods do).

 
This assumes that those really were the reasons for the power peninsulas and rejuvenation pods. (Unless you have a source?) Also those sound like really console arcadey gimmicks to me.
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Also, go watch a clip of Gordon Ramsy to see when I think about your statement, while I teach to to prove a suppression with incidental evidence.

Triangle island is not involved in any quest, it has one type of random enemy, who, does not attack you, and stays invisible until you do something to him. He has one attack, which is a time based decay death, he is vulnerable to one attack, doom or something, which is also death, he gives out more esper points then any other character in the game, before or after the ruin, and ONLY esper points. If you go their without the proper spell, you either do nothing to him and keep missing, or if you use some spells, he wakes up and kills you. If you don't go there, nothing happens... no quest is lost... it literally doesn't need to be in the game... it's a *shhhh shhhh* a secrete.

Roland: But you can't be sure... and you can't summarize without knowing something for absolutely sure.

Here's another cookie. Would you like milk? It was common practice back then to put helpers in for your players. Even the Nintendo Power Strategy guides told you to go to those place to exactly that... level really quickly. And arcades... didn't have those kinds of tricks because... *shhh another secrete* they wanted you quarters.

Roland: That's still not proof.

FINE! Here's another cookie. You really want those... |cookies... Roland...|. See there's two lines there...

Skill trees were first truly introduced with Diablo to try to increase difficulty. Sometimes you had to chose between one aspect of character design or another... but the tree was more or less designed to be filled out as you reached the end... the games wasn't open world, although you could go back to previous areas. It was meant to be played a crawler, and tailored its mechanics as such.

Roland: Which is what 7DtD is doing.

Shhh shhh, here's another cookie. There was no level requirements, except to get the points. Building games like Warcraft, the first one, had level specific gates, you could only build such and such when you build so and so... and this was used do to the limitation of diverse resources. You had trees, gold, food, gas, crystals, whatever... usually only two or three. Instead of needing to go out and find a special McGuffin to make progress, they made you build something... upgrading was added to give you a slight edge.

You see... Trees were invented to advance character development for epic boss battles... gates where invented to simplify resource management... Trees where augmented with cascading unlockables... but still meant to be used to prepare for boss battles. Every other enemy was usually rubber-banded to keep the player engaged, but not overly swamped.

Then Fallout 1 and 2 happened... created by interplay... and they tried to combine the two... and... secrete secrete... it worked. AND ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE JUMPED ON THE BAND WAGON. Fallout 3 happened, it moved from a top down to first person... things stated to hemorrhage, New Vargas gave it a shot in the arm... Fallout 4 made it much worse, they tried to add a building aspect that is really... bad...

Before you say anything, here's another cookie... if 7 Days is Walking Dead, meets Fallout, meets tower defense, meets whatever... it's attempting to combine several distinct genre with their own distinct mechanics... none of which were designed to work with one another... Gating supposes a need to hold the player back so not to leap forward due to lake of diversity... Skill trees are designed to enhance rubber banding and prepare a player for epic battles in a linear progression... tower defense had upgradeable installations to ward off waves off attacks, but rewards successful warding off... limiting abilities like caring space, quality of craftables, weight, are carrot and stick techniques utilized to compel a player to improve their abilities instead of hunkering down... and states like agility and perception, are first person stat sheets designed to specialize a character into a particular class...

At the moment... every one of those competing mechanics... are being consolidated into one progression matrix... it not a stat sheet, not quite a tree, not really a cascading perk table... it is literally... nothing... it is nothing it needs to be to do everything it wants to. It's 30 years of game design... in 5 or 6 genres... trying to boil itself down to 4 or 5 character building pages...

Roland: Fun Pimps is working this stuff out, blah blah blah-be-blah...

I just gave you the cliff notes version of of stuff it's taken my entire life to learn... get your own damn cookie.

- - - Updated - - -

So you have a low tolerance to respectful disagreement. You pouted, then you got sarcastic and passive aggressive, then you ranted some bizarre dialogue from FF6, and now you’ve progressed to ad hominem (although in light of your Latin you’ll probably claim it’s all just joking)
All I have pointed out is that there are games with gating that are successful. I even told you straight out that Fallout is an inspirational source for this game. It is perfectly fine to discuss how you would like to improve the current system but please try not to have a melt down when someone doesn’t agree with you.
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It was a joke, but not for your benefit... In comedy, you would be called the subject.

---edit---

I'm betting myself a hundred bux that my next thought is, "you can't be reasoned with, I'm out."

 
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