PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Boidster]

...that is not the game that The Fun Pimps have in mind. It has nothing to do being "based on reality" except to the extent that The Fun Pimps see "based on reality" as a design goal. Which is not for us to decide.

I'm not so sure about that. If you're saying my interpretation of TFP is wrong, how can you say yours is right?

I'm not. I literally said "Which is not for us to decide." This is TFP's vision of a zombie apocalypse. I don't get to say what is right or wrong about it. I can say what I like or don't like, or people can prefer that the game only have The Correct Type of Zombie (pick your favorite). You said we don't have "Harry Spotter" and "Hogwash castle" and "a giant green dragon" because they aren't realistic. I'm saying we don't have them because that is not the game TFP wants to build. It has nothing to do with being based on reality except insofar as 'based on reality' is part of TFP's vision, which in many, many cases it obviously is not. That vision doesn't currently include poor Harry Spotter and his green dragon. I now eagerly await the Harry Spotter And The Green Dragon overhaul mod pack.

Anyway, this whole crate thing is like Mt. Fuji made from a golf divot. The description "sealed X crate" was just an indicator that, unlike the old crates, you have to beat this one open to get to the underlying cardboard box. I don't think TFP ever thought, in their wildest dreams, that it would turn into so much wailing and gnashing of teeth. We players overthink things. Seriously. It is not a big deal and it's easy to change your localization file if you dislike the word 'sealed'.

ETA: I do think the idea of removing stone tools/weapons and replacing them with low-level useful stuff is a good one for resolving this issue.

 

[Ralathar44]

Except that a) some people have already admitted that it has nothing to do with immersion, they just don’t like getting crappy stuff to start out and still nobody has complained that the steel axe is also found in sealed shipping containers and b) While I do make the observation it isn’t the crux of my counter-argument so even if that is an easier point to attack, that’s not what I’m doing. 
 

It doesn’t help that there are two concurrent threads about this topic in which one is about “realism” and the other is just complaining about how progression sucks because you get primitive stuff for the first week and all the same people are on all the same sides...lol

Now this is simply a case of you making an ignorant statement because you are another who really should  use the forum tools to follow the developers. This has been discussed since before A19 was released and instead of complaints about how it gets played we only had complaints about when it gets played. I’m not stating this “new system” as damage control. I’m reiterating for the umpteenth time because people don’t pay attention to what has been said. 

That is very reasonable and you are the first I’ve read who has articulated wanting other types of supplies instead of better versions of the weapons and tools showing up. I’ll leave a note to Madmole about that idea. 

Yeah mostly I'm just tired of people trying to pretend it's about realism or immersion when everything present can be explained just as well as all the other game systems and nobody complaining about immersion/realism wants to make cosmetic changes so it "makes more sense", they all just want better stuff.  There is nothing wrong with saying "I want guns and iron tools by day 7".  But people have this hardon for trying to present everything as "immersion" or "realism" or "suspension of disbelief" so they can be "objectively correct" or "stating the facts".

It's terrible feedback.  It takes a valid opinion/preference and devalues it by muddying the waters with irrelevant ideas.

 

[Xtrakicking]

and you are the first I’ve read who has articulated wanting other types of supplies instead of better versions of the weapons and tools showing up.

Not really true...

Heck, I'd rather get some iron ingots instead of two useless stone shovels in every Working Stiff's box.

Also, the problem is both realism and gameplay, not one or the other. It's true that it can be confusing when one group of players focuses their frustration towards one thing more than the other, though.

 

[Roland]

and you are the first I’ve read who has articulated wanting other types of supplies instead of better versions of the weapons and tools showing up.

Not really true...

Completely true. I know because they are my own eyes doing the work....

I see your quote and grant you being the second person I've read. Sorry I didn't notice you first. I've already notified Joel about your's and Onar's suggestions.

EDIT: I followed your quote back to the original and the way you phrased it made it much more dismissible than Onar's post. His was more of a solution whereas yours was an afterthought of something you'd rather get than two crappy stone shovels. Sometimes how you say something makes a big difference. Also, until I reach t6 on stone items I seem to find at least something that is a higher tier than what I have whenever I open the loot boxes. That means less repairing and at times an additional mod slot. That ain't useless.

 

[Xtrakicking]

His was more of a solution whereas yours was an afterthought of something you'd rather get than two crappy stone shovels.

Yes, you're right. I shall expand on solutions in future occasions.

Now, of the stuff I've looted during the first days of my playthrough all the stone tools were of equal or less quality than the ones I had, and when I started getting better quality stone tools I was already crafting T2-3 iron tools in my forge. I've got a lot of stones in my chests, though.

 

[Onarr]

Except that a) some people have already admitted that it has nothing to do with immersion, they just don’t like getting crappy stuff to start out and still nobody has complained that the steel axe is also found in sealed shipping containers and b) While I do make the observation it isn’t the crux of my counter-argument so even if that is an easier point to attack, that’s not what I’m doing. 
 

It doesn’t help that there are two concurrent threads about this topic in which one is about “realism” and the other is just complaining about how progression sucks because you get primitive stuff for the first week and all the same people are on all the same sides...lol

Players will never tell you what is actually wrong. They will tell you how they feel in a completely different words that usually have nothing to do with the problem. They are not game designers, so they do not really know where it lies. These discussions exist to get to the bone of the problem. At the beginning I did not know either what bothered me, because it usually is several things combined together, which need to be approached in tandem. 

Players complain about immersion means - I do not like it. I stop enjoying the game when this happens. 

Players say progression sucks - they do not feel rewarded for doing the content in game.

Then they will tell you how they think it should be handled. That is something one must not focus on. Its not important. Important is identifying the underlying problem, deciding whether or not it is a problem, whether or not is it worth solving and if so how to solve it so it is not in conflict with overall design and vision. It would be nice if there was F.A.Q. Where those crucial issues are slowly identified and accumulated, so people would not repeat themselves over and over on forums.

 

[Roland]

Players will never tell you what is actually wrong. They will tell you how they feel in a completely different words that usually have nothing to do with the problem. They are not game designers, so they do not really know where it lies. These discussions exist to get to the bone of the problem. At the beginning I did not know either what bothered me, because it usually is several things combined together, which need to be approached in tandem. 

Players complain about immersion means - I do not like it. I stop enjoying the game when this happens. 

Players say progression sucks - they do not feel rewarded for doing the content in game.

Then they will tell you how they think it should be handled. That is something one must not focus on. Its not important. Important is identifying the underlying problem, deciding whether or not it is a problem, whether or not is it worth solving and if so how to solve it so it is not in conflict with overall design and vision. It would be nice if there was F.A.Q. Where those crucial issues are slowly identified and accumulated, so people would not repeat themselves over and over on forums.

Good points. However, the raison d'etre for having a public thread regarding these complaints is so that people who have no problem with immersion and people who do feel rewarded and like the progression can also voice their disagreements to the complaints. What some seem to want is a vacuum into which they can state their opinion. Essentially, they would like for me to lock the thread and only allow posts that agree with them to be posted.

As for the F.A.Q. idea..... We've learned from sad experience that all a F.A.Q. accomplishes is a new kind of frustration where people are still repeating themselves over and over on the forums and we are also repeating ourselves over and over to go read the F.A.Q. And then the questioning person being offended that people can't just tell them instead of sending them somewhere. Happens on the steam forum all the time.

Case in point: Grokking Early Access.....

 

[Ralathar44]

Completely true. I know because they are my own eyes doing the work....

I see your quote and grant you being the second person I've read. Sorry I didn't notice you first. I've already notified Joel about your's and Onar's suggestions.

EDIT: I followed your quote back to the original and the way you phrased it made it much more dismissible than Onar's post. His was more of a solution whereas yours was an afterthought of something you'd rather get than two crappy stone shovels. Sometimes how you say something makes a big difference. Also, until I reach t6 on stone items I seem to find at least something that is a higher tier than what I have whenever I open the loot boxes. That means less repairing and at times an additional mod slot. That ain't useless.

Yup, it's just like I said there are nuggets of usable feedback buried in their posts but it's just utterly buried in the diatribe and sullied by the sanctimonious realism/suspension of disbelief arguments they've spent 95% of their time trying to justify as well as the numerous times they've literally asked (directly or indirectly) for iron tool/guns instead.  The "give us anything else instead like building materials" is a compromise position only mentioned as an afterthought because it IS an afterthought...at least based on how they've argued.  If that's not what they mean they are doing a very poor job in communication.

I feel like 70% of the complaints would go away with T1 primitive ranged weapons for each skill focus though.  Iron tools are super easily achievable with a few skill points, it's getting a gun of your skill focus that takes awhile even if you skill into it and that can cause frustrations.  So I think having primitive range weapons of each type would relieve some of those frustrations.

The remaining being making stone tools/weapons a little rarer and replacing them with materials.  Which will give slightly more useful loot boxes while lowering the perception of stone tool/weapon spam.  Alot of this isn't in the metrics/logic department but rather the "feels" department.  People are confusing their subjective experience feedback with objective fact based feed back and then using all the worst social media communication tactics with that in mind.  Most of the people who have disagreed with them multiple times have been quite directly attacked/insulted by them at this point....which really isn't helping them either.  This is normal though, most people would make poor testers not because of capability or intelligence but because of mentality.

 

[Roland]

Yes, you're right. I shall expand on solutions in future occasions.

Now, of the stuff I've looted during the first days of my playthrough all the stone tools were of equal or less quality than the ones I had, and when I started getting better quality stone tools I was already crafting T2-3 iron tools in my forge. I've got a lot of stones in my chests, though.

It is true that I did not perk into Miner69 in my most recent playthrough beyond the first step. I was doing a Fortitude build this time so best I could craft was Orange for tools and brown for bows and spears. So finding better bows, spears, and tools was still interesting and rewarding for me. Could be that a strength build is what makes the new progression the least interesting because you can outcraft any tools, clubs, and stone sledges you might find and Strength is a popular build.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Now, of the stuff I've looted during the first days of my playthrough all the stone tools were of equal or less quality than the ones I had, and when I started getting better quality stone tools I was already crafting T2-3 iron tools in my forge. I've got a lot of stones in my chests, though.

I wonder how you are playing...

I haven't crafted a single tool in A19 yet. In my current playthrough i'm on day 29 and could still only craft T2 iron tools. I already found T4 shovel and pickaxe and T2 fireaxe. Of course it only costs 3 skill points for T3 iron tools, but imho you can't really use them that early, because two picks and you're out of stamina, if you haven't skilled sex rex.

The progression is so slow now, that i didn't feel a need for having iron tools that early. I also find wrenches soon (currently a T5) and in every try strangely it took a while to loot a clawhammer, which i primarily only need for crafting a workbench.

In the early game i do quests, try to improve food supplies and just upgrade POIs a little for the early hordes. No stuff i really need good iron tools for. I prefer increasing my allround skills (especially in singleplayer).

Also my current T4 iron shovel (56 block damage) is even worse than my T6 stone shovel (57 block damage). It has higher durability but it costs a repair kit, the stone shovel just a stone and one wood.

Don't know the exakt day but ~day 10 i had every tool in T6 stone found. 

 

[Aldranon]

So I know the people that spec into Strength (myself included).  We don't care too much for any stone tool under Tier-4.

But someday I (we?) will tire of blasting zombies into vapor with a pump shotgun with an extended ammo barrel.

The auto shotgun is a speed run for most POI's.  I can have the Water Works cleared in around 4 minutes.

If I go all in for Intelligence, for example, I would like any tool better than I can make.

 

[Xtrakicking]

Snip

All these people talking about suspension of disbelief that you see here are doing it because of people like you, who keep making posts trying to fruitlessly diminish its importance. If you truly cared about feedback, you wouldn't be trying so hard to shut people's frustrations down just because you think they mean nothing, despite multiple users telling you that you're wrong. I'm not Q&A, but I don't think the communication problem is on us.

I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, I don't know where you guys are getting that from. Every poster I've seen complaining about this issue has clearly stated how the problem is with how nonesensical it is to get primitive stone tools in gun safes and the like. Instead of pretending that other people are just whining for better loot and hiding it behind "immersion", how about actually reading what people are posting?

 

[JCrook1028]

, yes the word 'sealed' is the problem. Removing it, I believe, would result in people not complaining anymore because now there's plausibility someone's rummaged through it

"Sealed" in the case of wooden shipping crates means nailed. VERY easy to open and reseal as new looking.

 

[Xtrakicking]

Snip

I do perk into strength a lot, so by the aftermath of the first horde I'm already T2-3 in tools. I only use stone tools up until I get my first forge, in which I craft T2-3 iron tools and go with that till I get steel.

 

[Roland]

I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, I don't know where you guys are getting that from.

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

 

[Xtrakicking]

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

I think when they say "crap" they're mostly referring to the stone tier stuff, which is crap loot if you're scavenging a gun store where most people would want to at least get some weapon parts.

 

[Ralathar44]

The other thread mostly. Probably not fair to combine the two in our minds but it is really tough not to because there is a lot of overlap. I think I even posted there once thinking it was here...

Over there people are point blank saying they just want better gear as a reward. Onarr even said there that it has nothing to do with immersion--simply just not wanting to get crap in every box that gets opened.

So...mixed signals and muddy waters.

It's hard not to with what is being said.  Since one particular poster is taking exception to my comment folks are looking for better loot (their words verbatim "I don't recall anyone asking for better gear, ") I'll pull quotes from them specifically this time showing them literally asking for better loot in this same thread: 

I think when they say "crap" they're mostly referring to the stone tier stuff, which is crap loot if you're scavenging a gun store where most people would want to at least get some weapon parts.

Notice how I never mentioned base building. The problem is with the items you get when looting. Now, obviously it seems like in spite of the new system you still find loot worth it in your experience. Wanna know my experience? Let's see what's in this Working Stiffs. Scrap, scrap, scrap, scrap. Great! I just got 8 stones out of that Working Stiffs. Woo hoo!

I think it's important to get something very clear: The problem with loot is in the gameplay itself, not just in the realism aspect. There's no incentive in looting when the game forbids you of getting anything else that's not made of stone for days. It's simply bad design.

Ohhhh right right right. What could possibly be better than a T5 blunderbuss, ay? I'm certainly willing to waste all my resources and risk my life against high tier enemies for all those sweet blunderbusses that for some unknown cosmic power are all you can find stored away in a gun store in 2034.

That being said, the problem with the stone age thing now isn't just related to realism, it's a gameplay problem. If I enter a Shotgun Messiah risking my life fighting against ferals on day 1 and I manage to beat them, I deserve a reward as a player. Thus, finding primitive gear worse than the gear I already have in all the damn boxes is frustrating as hell, especially if you play without 30 day respawn loot, because it basically means that looting that Shotgun Messiah was an absolute waste in every sense possible, just because you decided to loot it too early. That right there is the problem, and a serious one at that.

I'm not pulling my "hot take" out of the ether.  I'm reading what people are writing and holding them to their own words.  I pay attention, I read every word, I try to understand the various motivations intertwined, and above all I don't forget someone made comments just because it's buried in a long post 3 pages back.  If I'm unsure I double check.  Even most of the folks biggest on the "realism" aspect are 100% also asking for better loot.  Whether you want to consider the "realism" argument being used as a trojan horse or whether you want to consider the better loot a side effect of more realism is a matter of interpretation/spin.  But they have ben inexcticably tied together by almost everyone arguing for "realism".

I'm honestly sympathetic to the argument of modifying the loot tables to provide more materials and plans are in place to give higher risk higher reward options for A20 with the system for modifying POI gamestage, I just don't like the dishonesty.  And I think if we had primitive versions of all skill tree firearms I think some of that want for higher loot would go away. 

 

[uselessjunkaccount]

I'm happy to see that most people like the new changes. I love anything that stretches out the technology tiers. In the previous two alphas you could have 3-4 guns and ammo for them along with armor, a junk turret and a wrench if you really tried. Personally, I don't see that as realistic at all either but I don't think this game was built to be realistic anyway. I particularly enjoy this because it disincentivizes the cheesing of loot.

 

[Raestloz]

"Sealed" in the case of wooden shipping crates means nailed. VERY easy to open and reseal as new looking.

I personally don't see a lot of reason for someone to open a crate, take what's inside, put in what they had (i.e stone axe) and then seal it back, without booby trapping it

1. If they don't plan to come back again, why bother? It's dangerous with all the zombies around, the less time you spend somewhere unsafe, the better
   
2. If they do plan to come back again, why bother? As a storage you're just inconveniencing yourself with re-opening the seal and sealing it back every time. If they want to ambush people, why bother sealing the crate? Simply put up a board masquerading it as new and booby trap the area around the crate itself instead
   

 

[Xtrakicking]

I pay attention, I read every word, I try to understand the various motivations intertwined

You should try harder, because you just showed how you misinterpreted every single one of those quotations of mine. I frankly find it amusing how you're trying to paint me as someone who's only mad because I'm not getting super gear early on. You just can't seem to understand what the problem is. Getting stone gear stuff from a gun store is absurd, it doesn't make sense, and that's what I state in each one of those quotations.

I see for the sake of your narrative you also forgot to quote this:

Nope. If TFP decided tomorrow that now all the Tazas indian chests in the game contained 5 assault rifles of the greatest quality and 2 rocket launchers on day 1, I would most certainly rant again.

If the loot doesn't make sense for the POI/container where it is hidden, it doesn't make sense and should be changed to something that makes sense. Maybe you think I want AKs and rifles in gun stores on day 1, but I never said that. Loot could be some gun parts, some ammo, some mods, some iron ingots, etc. All those make sense for a gun store, and I don't think they are super gear.

I just don't like the dishonesty

But what dishonesty? I'm not here trying to hide ulterior motives. You think that I'm using realism as a red herring, but just because you think that doesn't mean it's the case. This is all a product of your personal apprehension towards the aspect of immersion.