PC So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[doughphunghus]

I think monster closets and drop ceilings can be believable as long as they are not overused and the environment supports it.

I think it would be kinda a bit "nicer" if where they were hiding (which i like, but over time you do start to look at a room and go "yeap, they're right in that closet!") it looked more like that's where they were holed up before they died.  maybe a lot of trash, a dead lantern, bedroll, etc. make it look like they chose that place when they were alive.  Having them pop out of empty closets (a lot) is a bit weird.  falling from the ceiling (like when there's just a ceiling of rafters and a few plywood supports), and they're on the supports, might feel less bad if there were more "flooring" up there, maybe even a bit of ladder, and a cooler and some clothes, etc.

Something else I've been wanting and might be "nice to have" in these situations where you don't want to always have "loot" whenever a zed is hidden: some way to add blood or bloody hand prints/smears to things.  even if we can't paint any more textures, having more gore on "empty" containers or just more new "poi only" objects might be nice when they're holed up.  zed bursts out, you kill them, check closet and find a purse and then a few "blood smeared items" to show they were in there for awhile. Some handprints or something.  Having a "dry and clean and organized" hidey hole for a dead person is a little unconvincing.  yeah I know its not a reality simulator but a lot more gore assets might come in handy.  The "dead corpses" they put in here and there is a very nice touch and I fell we could use more of this to help detract from the jump scares... like "lots of zeds came into the building, people hid and eventually died, then the zeds died", so you could put a corpse(s) as a warning to the player next to places a zed (or many) might jump out and then use that concept to put them around doors and closets and have a corpse inside or simply nothing in the closet/hidey hole. with the few gore/corpse blocks we have it might look a bit too redundant. Then the random, clean looking, non corpse warning jump out/down might feel much better as it coudl be a rarer occurrence.

 

[Boidster]

All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are.

Yeah, the numerous tests, accompanying screenshots, debug info, and faatal's own confirmation in this very thread put the lie to this myth. It is perfectly possible to stealth an attack volume. Copious evidence right here in this thread. (It has nothing to do with noise levels, though.)

If the argument is that it should be easier, or require lower perk levels, to successfully sneak into every attack volume in every POI, that's fair. Maybe the balance isn't right.

 

[Boidster]

Unless they changed it from A19, my experience throwing rocks as a distraction and hunting ferals at night says otherwise. The sounds used are the same from what I remember, it just randomizes which one is played a bit between each investigating/targeting instance.

The XML implies that there's a different sound, but of course the actual .wav could be identical!

    <property name="SoundAlert" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalealert"/>
    <property name="SoundSense" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalesense"/>
    <property name="SoundHurt" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalepain"/>
    <property name="SoundDeath" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemaledeath"/>
    <property name="SoundAttack" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemaleattack"/>

Edit to add: I extracted the sound files and learned

a) there are 3 different 'sense' sounds, 6 different 'alert' sounds, and 10 different 'attack' sounds for the standard template zombie male (there are variations and special sounds for some types of zombies i.e. crawler, screamer, demolisher)

b) 'sense' sounds are obviously different; 'alert' and 'attack' sounds are quite similar. I can't see any but the most focused player knowing, in the midst of a group of zombies plopping out of ceilings & closets, which sounds signify a real targeting/attack vs. which are just alerted zombies coming to investigate.

I actually think the game would play just fine if the 'sense' sounds were used for both 'sense' and 'alert'. You know a zombie is awake and aware - if it starts moving your way you'll know it's been alerted to a noise or whatever. Save the more vicious-sounding noises for real attacks.

 

[theFlu]

It is perfectly possible to stealth an attack volume.

But it's not like some criticism isn't in order; your exchange made me wonder how well stealthing with skills can work. Went back to our warehouse, 5/5 stealth. I could sprint-sneak the first volume I've been testing, without waking either of the two there. Next 3 volumes seemed to agro to sprinting, but not to normal sneaking. They're a bit closer.

Oh, right, this was also *high noon*, with no regard to my light levels. The successful sneak-sprint showed my stealth meter at 19 (while I was failing at meter 1 in the night).

So the feel of the system isn't exactly there.

 

[Boidster]

So the feel of the system isn't exactly there.

That's fair. I think both "stealth is possible" and "the balance feels wrong" can both be true. What isn't true is "zombies auto-attack always in every volume". Unless maybe you are sprint-sneaking in daylight through all of them! Is sprint sneaking a technique that stealth players often use? Will balance be better if we can crouch-sprint through volumes undetected in broad daylight?

I think maybe one of the big issues is that attack volume stealth isn't based on noise (and to be fair to Scyris he did say "no matter how quiet you are"). Players think (understandably) that it should be based on noise, especially with the sleepers hidden here and there and not even looking at the player. The stealth meter currently is useless I think at least in the context of the attack volumes. It's an amalgam of light and noise and one half of that amalgamation is irrelevant to successfully sneaking in an attack volume.

Although current light level is an easy number to pull from the player data to calculate the "did they see me" numbers, I don't think it'd be too hard to use, say, the maximum noise volume of the player's crouched walk (or sprint) and do the same sort of calc with that. So if the whole warehouse is asleep and hidden, it's how loud your footsteps are that determine wakey wakey, not whether you're under an overhead light (which the sleepers can't even see).

 

[theFlu]

Unless maybe you are sprint-sneaking in daylight through all of them! Is sprint sneaking a technique that stealth players often use?

Hmm.. first I'll just point out that I tested it just for fun to see if it's possible; I was a little surprised it was. Why I brought it up was to highlight the absolute unreliableness of the stealth meter; a 19 succeeds where a 1 fails. And I figured it might be an interesting tidbit for anyone involved

Second, you're of course right in your implication, sprinting while trying to sneak is generally a bad idea. Then again, sprinting while sneaking could and IMO should be a part of the game play. Let's say you wake up accidentally one or two zeds of a small group; deciding between abandoning stealth entirely or trying to scoot away slow or scoot away fast gives a layer of decisions and game play.

And with the way the attack volumes are currently done, there's absolutely no reason NOT to sprint sneak the moment you wake something up, the possible things that didn't wake, are not going to wake from the added visibility of your sprint. Not sure if any can wake from you just getting up either, but .. I guess that would require a lot more testing..

And a little side-note, it's not like sneak sprinting isn't intended to be used ever; there's even a book specifically for it.

So if the whole warehouse is asleep and hidden, it's how loud your footsteps are that determine wakey wakey

Yeh, that would be more, umm, "sane", should we say. Then again, I'm having a hard time trying to grasp the noise-chase system, it feels a little wonky. I started a stealth playthru, feral sense is pretty brutal there so currently trying to just max out Agi for 5/5. Not exactly a perfect setting for learning, but I'm just having fun there..

And your second paragraph is basically why I would give frustrated players quite a bit of slack; they're complaining for a reason, they might not have gone thru a couple days of code reading and testing to figure out the exact complaint, but the complaint might still be pretty legit ..

EDIT: "fun" I said. Sweet jebus, 2 dire wolves as sleepers in a Tier 2 fetch (house_old_modular_3). Lets say I was happy about my stealth and willingness to exploit pathing. I was hungry going in, not so much going out ...

 

[hiemfire]

Edit to add: I extracted the sound files and learned

a) there are 3 different 'sense' sounds, 6 different 'alert' sounds, and 10 different 'attack' sounds for the standard template zombie male (there are variations and special sounds for some types of zombies i.e. crawler, screamer, demolisher)

b) 'sense' sounds are obviously different; 'alert' and 'attack' sounds are quite similar. I can't see any but the most focused player knowing, in the midst of a group of zombies plopping out of ceilings & closets, which sounds signify a real targeting/attack vs. which are just alerted zombies coming to investigate.

Bolded might be what I was noticing during my night hunts. Though the "attack" sounds might be the ones they make when they are taking a swing at you (they ain't quiet when they are punching you in the mouth) and the "alert" sounds could be both when they have you targeted and when they are investigating.

 

[Rotor]

I saw this movie once:

"The never ending story"

 

[meganoth]

Hmm.. first I'll just point out that I tested it just for fun to see if it's possible; I was a little surprised it was. Why I brought it up was to highlight the absolute unreliableness of the stealth meter; a 19 succeeds where a 1 fails. And I figured it might be an interesting tidbit for anyone involved

Second, you're of course right in your implication, sprinting while trying to sneak is generally a bad idea. Then again, sprinting while sneaking could and IMO should be a part of the game play. Let's say you wake up accidentally one or two zeds of a small group; deciding between abandoning stealth entirely or trying to scoot away slow or scoot away fast gives a layer of decisions and game play.

And with the way the attack volumes are currently done, there's absolutely no reason NOT to sprint sneak the moment you wake something up, the possible things that didn't wake, are not going to wake from the added visibility of your sprint. Not sure if any can wake from you just getting up either, but .. I guess that would require a lot more testing..

And a little side-note, it's not like sneak sprinting isn't intended to be used ever; there's even a book specifically for it.

I would assume that the existence of the book shows that sneak sprinting IS part of the game play, and without having read it it should be a risk or a bad idea.

Yeh, that would be more, umm, "sane", should we say. Then again, I'm having a hard time trying to grasp the noise-chase system, it feels a little wonky. I started a stealth playthru, feral sense is pretty brutal there so currently trying to just max out Agi for 5/5. Not exactly a perfect setting for learning, but I'm just having fun there..

And your second paragraph is basically why I would give frustrated players quite a bit of slack; they're complaining for a reason, they might not have gone thru a couple days of code reading and testing to figure out the exact complaint, but the complaint might still be pretty legit ..

EDIT: "fun" I said. Sweet jebus, 2 dire wolves as sleepers in a Tier 2 fetch (house_old_modular_3). Lets say I was happy about my stealth and willingness to exploit pathing. I was hungry going in, not so much going out ...

 

[theFlu]

I would assume that the existence of the book shows that sneak sprinting IS part of the game play

Indeed, seems like a feature that has been given at least _some_ thought. And I do use it occasionally, with something agroed too close for comfort and something else wandering around a little further. However I'm not entirely sure if I ever optimally should - or would it just always be better to actually sprint for a distance and then sneak properly.

and without having read it it should be a risk or a bad idea.

Well, maybe. Although the current book only removes stamina use, so I don't really see it making that much of a difference right now.

 

[meganoth]

Indeed, seems like a feature that has been given at least _some_ thought. And I do use it occasionally, with something agroed too close for comfort and something else wandering around a little further. However I'm not entirely sure if I ever optimally should - or would it just always be better to actually sprint for a distance and then sneak properly.

Well, maybe. Although the current book only removes stamina use, so I don't really see it making that much of a difference right now.

Oops, thought the book would make one stealthier. Should have read the description again.

 

[theFlu]

Oops, thought the book would make one stealthier. Should have read the description again.

Shhh, you didn't have to reveal your hand, while it wasn't good for the current-game-argument, it was perfectly fine as a game-design-argument

 

[Roland]

Considering I was stealth the entire time? and I often destroy the pile of garbage thats always behind a door in the path your meant to walk. All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are. Before in A19 you could enter the ambush volume in a different way and not trigger it, however in A20 a lot of these sleeper volumes do not spawn the zombies at all unless you step on the ambush trigger, which means when your on a clear quest, you cannot finish it, as the volume does not spawn UNLESS you step on the block that causes the ambush. Its TFP being TFP and forcing you to play in a certain way. I miss back in a16.4 when the player had choice, what weapon you used determined how high you up perks for it, you could stealth or go in guns blazing.

The stat system was the dumbest thing TFP has done to the game by far. Their excuse was to avoid "level gate" However, that was ONE level gate, now we have 5 gates instead of one. SO they made the problem WORSE and not better. Not to mention some stats are just worth more than others, str/int being the big 2, while the rest especially in A20 are kinda useless, especially Agi since stealth is a near non-option, which renders several agility perks near useless and a waste of skill points. This is not directly related to the stealth thing but it sort of is, as the way it is in A20 it makes Agility even less worth investing in as many of its perks are completly negated due to the ambush volumes being so prevalient.

 

[Boidster]

In case anybody still cares about this topic, I've finished the Boid's Stealth Logging mod. I may actually publicize this one over in the modding forum 'cause it's kinda useful if you want to really learn how stealth works, IMO. It won't make you like how it works, though! https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/1819?tab=files

The mod will log the following events to the console (with some supporting info if available):

• Player enters a sleeper volume
  
• Attack volume zombie tries to 'see' player
  
• Zombie targets player
  
• Zombie stops targeting player
  
• Zombie approaches a spot (due to noise e.g. gunfire or too-loud sneaking)
  
• Zombie approaches distraction (thrown rock/snowball)
  

 

[theFlu]

In case anybody still cares about this topic, I've finished the Boid's Stealth Logging mod.

Neato. For the next phase, hook up some UI events and design a good stealth meter ...

 

[Boidster]

I don't have any UI modification skills at the moment. What I was considering is looking into the fairly simple "did I see you" calculation for attack sleeper Zs and see if I could make it use noise instead of light. I assume that a) this is not a unique idea and b) TFP already thought it through and discarded the idea and c) whatever I might come up with will be worse. But it will be fun to try.

 

[Ray Garraty]

My approach to entering any fresh room in a PoI now is to run into the middle of the room and then run back out the way I came and kill whoever chases me

Yeah, it's my favorite tactics too, but it fails when there are too many zombies in the place, like in the Tier V POIs