PC So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[Boidster]

I'm not reacting much to the code snippets; not because I don't appreciate you digging in there, but because I pretty much know one can't figure out the entire system too easily by code-reading.

Interesting! I am mostly poking around for two reasons, 1) to learn in more detail what's going on and 2) to support other evidence or claims of certain behaviors. As a former coder myself, I place much higher weight to what the code says is going on vs. what I think I see going on when I play. All that means is if the play test appears to do X, but the code says it should do Y, then I'm more likely to distrust my own interpretation of the play testing. That's not really fair; it depends on how confident I am in the code interpretation, which is kinda your point. Different perspectives. Of course it is difficult to piece everything together because the code is HUGE. And, of course, there are no comments available.

 

[theFlu]

Hmm..

Final point - none of these functions seem to be used when a sleeper wakes up and targets you, that I can see.

A wise man once said:

    SetAttackTarget([player], 1200);  -- set player as attack target for 1200 ticks

Which made me realize, what you described in the later post is all about search and not at all about attack. The Attack volume zeds get an Attack command, not a search?

All that means is if the play test appears to do X, but the code says it should do Y

Hmm.. if the code was the whole picture, there would be no QA. But yeh, different perspectives, having worked basically between the coders and the QA, I do appreciate both..

 

[Boidster]

Which made me realize, what you described in the later post is all about search and not at all about attack. The Attack volume zeds get an Attack command, not a search?

Kinda. I guess the way I'd put it, which really is just restating what Faatal said I think, is that attack volume Zs get a special chance to 'see' you (disregarding LoS so...weird) which uses different logic from a normal zombie. If they see you, then they also have a different path to the "attack the player" AI behavior, which uses that 1200 ticks hard-coded duration (and which Faatal is reducing to 400 it seems).

The other two functions, not used by sleepers, also end up with "attack the player", but they get there after passing through the From the Shadows perk enhancements to chase time. Regardless of how a Z gets into the "attack the player" AI behavior, from then on it's the same code running the show.

In all cases, the fixed-1200 ticks and the 1200-ticks-modified-by-FtS-perk are used for exactly the same thing. Your testing seems to show what Sithdarth suggested, though - that changing the AI task to a different flavor of "see and attack" can reset the counter to something lower.

 

[Enlonwhite]

Well, feelings are a subjective interpretation of something, therefore it isn't a factual reference. The importance that feelings should gain regarding concepts that require factual and technical data to be fixed, if there's a need to, is largely debatable.

Case in point, I'm an avid stealth player. I actually have a hard time playing otherwise, my immersive process demands to play stealthy like 95% of the time. I have a solid certitude that no, not all rooms are auto-wake up. This is a laughable exaggeration. If things would have been like you described them, I would have never bothered putting points in that skill.

I do come across rooms that are an inevitable trigger for Zs, but for a vast amount of time I spend playing, I can handle most of my possible stealth kills with success, with proper and careful precautions. This has been debated during A19 and I think it was Roland that once said that this isn't a pure stealth game and players should consider that you can't breeze your way with 100% stealth kills because that's something the designers don't wanna see. But they're also determined to make a stealth approach totally enjoyable for those who choose this path.

Now, of course this feature isn't perfect and I think that the part of the community that judges too hard should check their own perceptions before stating there's something wrong with the stealth mechanics like it's a fact. This isn't Splinter Cell, Tenchu or Thief and with the millions of possible interactions and conflicts the technical design of 7DTD generates, it's a colossal task to set up a feature that's stable enough for the eventual finished gold game.

I have played for the last 3 weeks as several builds, I can say this from my experience, that POI's in tier 3 (not all tier 3) and in 4-5 tiers are ATTACK trigger rooms, aka they agro the moment you activate the trigger or attack one of them even from stealth. I LOVE STEALTH style usually, however I find that going loud and proud in 7dtd even with 3-4 screamers outside is the best way to get things done. Which saddens me.

Also a video released lately on one of my channels for 7dtd actually went in to the code and checked the room triggers and such and YES most of the NEW poi's have attack triggers, aka no stealth working on this. in fact a good portion had NOTHING but attack triggers with few exceptions, even those had mostly attack triggers.

now stealth outside poi's is wonky funny at high perks, i have literially killed a mountain lion stay about 5-8 meters from it in stealth with a BOW no limb/head destruction, just damge.

I feel there needs to be a difference in zombie behavior and Clear ways to see/utilize that.
which means, I want a noise meter and a vision meter for stealth.....not a cheap combo, I want to know was i heard or seen? can I wait this out or am I going to have to fight?
Also zombies hiding in weird spots is very immersion breaking, I get maybe hiding in a closet to avoid the sun, or such. but it really makes no sense. Now if the zombie did a little terraforming of the area puting things in a pile and hiding in it, not cause they are smart. It is because they want to hide from light or such, heck maybe cause they are hiding from other zombies so they are not eaten by the others.
Speaking of which what type of zombies are these things, they seem like weird magical, hive-minded, Ravenous eating freaks. I say magic cause last i checked a human hand could not break a concrete or steel wall........the arms/hands break long before it does.

The real question comes as this, how realistic can we make this to make the zombies work in the game, and how far fetched to we need to make it? Even if it is far fetched in a game of programing, if , then, else, other is still rules.
which means what rules are we expecting to play by?

Feral sense is an interesting example here of rules, simple, They usually 95% of the time know where you are or where you are withing about 8 meters of you, which when you make a sound in that distance they then auto know where you are.....so like a mini horde night but whenever they have the feral sense on? did someone say 24/7 horde nights lasting at all hours? Last time i made that comment I noticed after an update that the zombies spawning in vision in the wilderness no longer auto GPS to you anymore its more like a % of them in the area do now. when the game goes on auto GPS zombies find you mode 24/7 it kills any thrill or tension, its just a overdose issue, in which you just are fighting a gauntlet. In turn this killed the tension and turned it into a how long can i hack and slash. (which i played to test stealth feral sense on at all times, hint feral sense kills stealth builds)

What i want to know is the intent behind some of the changes and goals in the game. I get so many mixed feelings playing the game coming from the devs.
So what someone makes a non-need to interact with the horde on horde night base. Let them be bored hiding if that is there choice. If that is what they want why did that guy have horde night on at all? granted certain methods are a problem in other aspects if they achieve this so definitely something to look at. Making killing the horde more rewarding was a great direction, That rewards people for doing the one thing I see this game has, Killing/interacting with the zeds. Afk killing bases now that is realistic with the stupidity that would be a zombie, but game play is not very...interacting that I understand with some exceptions being resources spent to kill from traps, fully afk but killing should be costing time else where, aka ammo, power, etc.

But i have diverged, what is needed here in this topic i read, is behavior. We need more interactive behavior, less black and white, and even with that we need ways to interact and SEE ways to acknowledge this. Several games have clear User symbols that are in good too see places/icons that dont interfere with the players over all screen, but give quick and meaningful info, not hidden in the corner of the screen and over simplified to near meaningless numbers that are a not even actually accurate.

Take for example I watched a lets play of a player doing a dangerous treasure dig out the the wasteland. A horde comes onto his postion and he hears the zombies above him in the hole he dug straight down and slightly to the side.....he goes stealth and waits hoping they will just leave eventually.
(which i dont know if hordes ever leave the spot they choose but hey?
So he is at a 1 on his stealth meter and a 7 at the highest when he moves, assuming he is full stealth here, no feral sense. Suddenly he is at 35 on the meters for about 1.5 seconds, all the zeds start hissing and yelling...... He didnt do more then move, no switching action slots, no actions other then a few meters moved placed a block on the hole, then moved back waiting, it was him sitting there for over 20 seconds suddenly he gets 35 on the meter....doing nothing.
now personally story wise I would to think the dust caused his character to sneeze or cough in that hole, would of been cool to hear that and go oh snap. but right now there was nothing to cause this.

Right now, zombies in the traditional sense have very limiting tactics, to be well traditional zombies. They need a new take on them and a way to explain this in LORE as to why, and this will make alot of people happy.
Bandits promised in Alpha 21 are promising to help change the game up but......unless they have a lot better AI behavior then the zombies, will not change the core issues of the game.
Immersion is the biggest thing questioned/seems to be what the game wants to do. But what it does is Survival hack and slash....shoot things.
If it wants to be more it needs to answer some questions:
First how are NPC's surviving? how do they survive horde nights? Why do horde nights happen in the world?
Are these zombies magical in nature, cause they seem to be? (mutant powers are still magical mechanically speaking)
Are the dead Cremated now as a standard? (ashes dont come back as zombies, let alone cut into pieces and buried apart ones)
Heck why DID this all happen? Would help point us in the right direction at least, to determine what to expect from these zombies!
Why are there even survivors at all?

For now I treat this game as it is, what it feels like. A very much more complex Minecraft.....with guns.
You build, you survive, you have enemies to kill with weapons, and a physic engine that is more fun to play with then actually think about. In a nut shell this game is still a child as the alpha name says, but it does show promise.



 

 

[DiegoLBC1]

Well, I want to leave my 2 cents, based on my gaming experience and the reports I've seen here. I apologize in advance, I'm using Googlew Translate. If you don't understand something, let me know and I'll correct it.

In summary, I didn't notice differences in stealth in A20 compared to A19. Yes, many zombies fall from the ceiling or out of the closets, but this only brought me "more scares", because as reported (I also noticed) many times the zombies don't know I'm there. It brings me more "excitement" when performing a stealth loot, but at the same time it's predictable and doesn't cause as much surprise. Why is it predictable?

Because since I started playing, currently with 1300+ hours played, I always saw zombies falling from the ceiling or in closets, and in A19 this was a sign of combat, they already knew I was there and they came directly to me. In A20 this keeps happening, but often it's just a "scare", if I keep stealth, walk away and don't despair I succeed in stealth.

When I say "predictability", it's that I know these "tricks" of zombies on the ceiling or closets a long time, it's easy for me to just shoot an arrow in the closet, I find zombies in them 90% of the time, so the murder is right, I ALWAYS check closets and ceilings, and because of that there is no surprise.

My tactic always boils down to this, since A19:

- Going across the floor with Stone Ax in hand > remove the trash on the doors > sneak into the room leaning against the wall while looking around. Closet doors? Shoot an arrow. Zombie in the closet? Arrow to the head.

- Going through the ceiling, bow and arrow in hand. If I need to jump into a room or the vertical ladder removes me from stealth mode, I jump and immediately click the button to crouch before I hit the floor. Then I look around as in the item above.

Anyway, for a long time I thought that stealth was broken, but after upgrading to the A20 I noticed that it just seems more difficult because of the zombies coming out of closets more easily and giving me "scares", but I also realized that just need to I keep calm, for "it was nothing but a fright," they had not seen me yet.

 

[theFlu]

Also a video released lately on one of my channels for 7dtd actually went in to the code and checked the room triggers and such and YES most of the NEW poi's have attack triggers, aka no stealth working on this.

Tiny error on the stealth there; as we've been testing above, stealth is really harshly tuned for those, but Boidster stealthed attack volumes successfully with 3/5 From the Shadows. So, "no stealth working" isn't strictly correct, it's just really really hard, "skill points are mandatory" -hard.

And yeh, I dislike the attack volume implementation as well.

 

[Boidster]

I wrote a mod (really, my first actual useful DLL-based mod, yay!) which adds instrumentation to the stealth code:



Right now it only logs when you first trigger a sleeper volume, and then for 'attack' volumes, the results (and math) for each zombie's "can I see you" check. The above example is with 3/5 From the Shadows. The key value is the LightAttackPercent, which is used as a way to translate your visibility into a sort of special attack-zombie-only "distance they can see you" number (ignoring line of sight!). 

That number ranges from 3 to 15 meters (hardcoded) and the game uses linear interpolation (lerp) to calculate the value. If your LightAttackPercent were 0 (very stealthy player), then the "lerp" you see above would be 3. If your LightAttackPercent were 1 (not stealthy at all), then the "lerp" would be 15. All the ranges between 3 and 15 are dependent on your stealth skill (and also environment light I think, but I want to confirm that).

The game compares actual distance ("distance to player" in the log) with the lerp - if the distance > lerp, you are undetected (but zombie goes 'active'). Otherwise, ATTACK!

I can add arbitrary logging into this, so if you have any ideas let me know. I will add a couple of more things myself and then publish to Nexus a little later.

 

[theFlu]

I started wondering how I ended up using two days for testing stealth (other than being my usual idiot self), so, I decided to skim through the thread again. Couple things that caught my eye, may have eventually been adressed, but I'll make my points:

This challenge from @Roland

" Resturaunt_02
Sleeper Volumes:  12"

"Can we see the code on that?"

I didn't see anyone properly address this here, so:

restaurant_02.xml(23):   <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

They all seem to be attack-volumes - there's more than 12 thou. I dropped in to prefab editor to check; my first time in the editor, the UI takes getting used to - but from what I was able to select, every volume Was indeed "attack".

For a list of POIS with >= 6 attack volumes, and less-than-that of other volume types, see spoiler:

Spoiler

apartments_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
commercial_strip_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
countrytown_business_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
downtown_filler_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_24.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_25.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_27.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_30.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_31.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
downtown_strip_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
farm_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
farm_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,0,2,0,2" />
farm_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
farm_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
field_concert_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
house_modern_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2" />
house_modern_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_19.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_20.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_21.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_gambrel_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_mansard_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
house_old_mansard_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,2" />
house_old_ranch_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_victorian_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
housing_development_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
office_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2" />
office_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
post_office_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_drive_in_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_clothing_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,0" />
store_electronics_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0" />
store_grocery_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_gun_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0" />
store_hardware_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,2,0,2" />
warehouse_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
warehouse_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

That is 89 POIs that have "most" set as attack volumes. And by visual guesstimate, about 80% of those have practically "All".

The lights-out discussion:
"And since light now affects stealth, they need to update the stealthmetre. Because currently it does not (or not correctly) factor light into this value."

I'm just seeing the rumor from this kill-the-lights-discussion making every wanna-be-sneaker start beating on lanterns with their stone axes. I can't imagine that being fun for anyone, so I just have to say, "please don't" (my plea shall be drowned in a wall-of-text-thread, but I'll make it anyway)

With the way things are, I don't see destroying lights as necessary, nor even that useful. The stealth meter does show when you're lit. The only* moment that being lit will matter is the moment you cross an attack volume threshold. You can usually navigate around the light sources well enough and most of them are NOT pointing on to a volume boundary - destroying the flashlight pointing out a window from the room you just cleared is just extra electrical parts. If a light is pointing straight to a zed, take a ranged shot From the Shadows. If you can't aim, toss a 'nade..

*Sure it effects the normal stealth too, but with the effect size there, you're not going to be surprised by it. You'll be right on the zed anyway.

 

[hiemfire]

For a list of POIS with >= 6 attack volumes, and less-than-that of other volume types, see spoiler:

Spoiler

apartments_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
commercial_strip_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
countrytown_business_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
downtown_filler_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_24.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_25.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_27.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_30.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_31.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
downtown_strip_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
farm_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
farm_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,0,2,0,2" />
farm_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
farm_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
field_concert_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
house_modern_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2" />
house_modern_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_19.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_20.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_21.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_gambrel_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_mansard_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
house_old_mansard_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,2" />
house_old_ranch_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_victorian_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
housing_development_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
office_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2" />
office_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
post_office_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_drive_in_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_clothing_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,0" />
store_electronics_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0" />
store_grocery_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_gun_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0" />
store_hardware_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,2,0,2" />
warehouse_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
warehouse_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

That is 89 POIs that have "most" set as attack volumes. And by visual guesstimate, about 80% of those have practically "All".

Almost as if the Poi designers were given a green light to place as many as they wanted with the additions of fataal's adjustments to stealth. Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

2 or more because I'm expecting all of the POIs to have at least one attack volume now.

 

[Boidster]

*Sure it effects the normal stealth too, but with the effect size there, you're not going to be surprised by it. You'll be right on the zed anyway.

Can you expand more on this idea? If you have awakened a group of sleepers (they are in 'active' mode), what is it that would cause you to be right on top of them before they can see you (if the room is lit)?

 

[theFlu]

what is it that would cause you to be right on top of them

Half of them are staring at an exploitable direction, just approach from behind, no vision checks.

Unless you're looking for a melee attack, you don't need to get too close, the distance alone is sufficient.

Overall, as long as you don't walk right next to one into a cone of light, you'll be pretty much fine.

Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

Some quick grep-fu: in the folder POIs there are 212 with more than 2 two or more, and 670 total. The total includes some (at least 40ish) street signs though, so as actual percentage.. At least a third.

 

[Roland]

Almost as if the Poi designers were given a green light to place as many as they wanted with the additions of fataal's adjustments to stealth. Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

2 or more because I'm expecting all of the POIs to have at least one attack volume now.

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check? To have a check there needs to be a chance of failure and that can only happen if the room is flagged to have zeds attack if the check fails.

These attack volumes are not the same type of attack volumes we discussed in A19. The problem isn't that they are flagged as attack...the problem seems to be with stealth, lighting, communication to the player, and perhaps the sensitivity or ease by which players can fail. They really should set every single volume to attack everywhere as long as they can tune in stealth and make it so that it isn't quite so easily failed and that it definitely and noticeably succeeds much more often as ranks are bought.

Then they also need to create a backup trigger that is probably automatic when leaving the volume so that if there are zombies hidden that we snuck past they wake up. If you aren't doing a clear quest, you are past them already.  You could shut the door and move on. If it is a clear quest then you won't miss those guys.

Finally, (and this coming from the guy that wants all onscreen icons to be invisible) I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted. If you sneak into a room and 5 zombies fall out of the rafters awake and ready to attack but the eye is closed then you know you are safe to stay hidden and take them out but if it is open then you know to retreat or openly attack. The current number really doesn't convey whether you are actively being hunted or not and I definitely don't want floating exclamation and question marks above the heads of the zombies.

 

[theFlu]

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check?

That all kinda depends on the purpose of the volume type. Are they supposed to be guarding the final loot or just scare the player? The behaviour might need to be different for each. I'm sure they'll end up somewhere decent.

Then they also need to create a backup trigger that is probably automatic when leaving the volume so that if there are zombies hidden that we snuck past they wake up.

Umm, no thank you. Getting trapped between two auto-agro volumes doesn't sound like an improvement

I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted.

Might help, but I'd rather it be obvious in the zeds themselves somehow; walking speed, different animations, something like that. No idea how feasible such would be though.

 

[hiemfire]

Some quick grep-fu: in the folder POIs there are 212 with more than 2 two or more, and 670 total. The total includes some (at least 40ish) street signs though, so as actual percentage.. At least a third.

So they stuck with roughly the same proportion as A19. Kinda shoots down my grumping, sort of. Now I'm getting curious about possible RWG spawn weighting for the different POIs.

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check? To have a check there needs to be a chance of failure and that can only happen if the room is flagged to have zeds attack if the check fails.

Yet with the POIs that @theFlu dug up, with them being clusters summable as "poi-x-01 through 10", until they're fully perked the player is given a fairly active indicator that stealth does not work, true or not, since there is no immediately perceivable difference between a zombie jumping out of a hidden panel going after you (targeted) and one that is looking to figure out who farted at the door to their room (investigating)*. Take into consideration that those are only ones that have 6 or more attack volumes, excluding ones with 5 or less, and a disturbing proportion have almost all if not all of the volumes flagged as attack volumes. If a similar proportion of the volumes with 5 or less attack volumes have 2/3rds or more of their volumes tagged as attack then the indication that stealth isn't working in POIs is even stronger.

* = I agree with following.

I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted.

And I think the crux of the issue with stealth is possibly in the following.

These attack volumes are not the same type of attack volumes we discussed in A19. The problem isn't that they are flagged as attack...the problem seems to be with stealth, lighting, communication to the player, and perhaps the sensitivity or ease by which players can fail.

Unlike in A19 where the problem with the attack volumes were they were a guaranteed failure point ignoring perk investment with no indicator other than repetitive experiences with the volume, the reason the A20 volumes being flagged as attack is a problem seems to be stemming from the adjustment to how light level is applied to the player for the detectability checks that was released to stable simultaneous with fataal's additional check to toggle to attack that referenced From the Shadows. I'm not saying the change to lighting's effect on stealth was a bad idea, it just needs either some direct tuning or there is something else affecting it that is swinging things too far the other direction when it comes to stealth in POIs.

They really should set every single volume to attack everywhere as long as they can tune in stealth and make it so that it isn't quite so easily failed and then definitely noticeably succeeds much more often as ranks in stealth are taken.

If they can get stealth tuned right than this suggestion would also give back a bit more of the feel that some of the longer playing run & gunners have been mentioning they've been missing from the game. 

 

[Boidster]

there is no immediately perceivable difference between a zombie jumping out of a hidden panel going after you (targeted) and one that is looking to figure out who farted at the door to their room (investigating)

I probably misunderstand the issue, but I think we've shown that a moderately-perked player (3/5 FtS) can successfully enter an Attack sleeper volume and not a single zombie will stir. What is the evidence of stealth failure that is compounded by having many/most POIs with Attack-style volumes?

 

[hiemfire]

I probably misunderstand the issue, but I think we've shown that a moderately-perked player (3/5 FtS) can successfully enter an Attack sleeper volume and not a single zombie will stir. What is the evidence of stealth failure that is compounded by having many/most POIs with Attack-style volumes?

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The zombies don't move or make a sound every single time that check is failed by them?

 

[Boidster]

The zombies don't move or make a sound every single time that check is failed by them?

Well, I can't say every single time I guess because I haven't done exhaustive testing of every POI. I've mainly been using warehouse_06 for recent testing, but they've been consistent in my tests there. The distance an attack sleeper can 'see' you is hardcoded to a range of 3m to 15m* though and in the example above I was far enough away (11.1m) to not be detected at my illumination and stealth skill.

In a different attack volume, where the Zs are closer when I trigger them? I might get detected. So definitely, stealth is not an always-works thing, and it shouldn't be IMO. 3/5 was good enough to do okay in the ground areas of warehouse_06. Might not be in other POIs. But I think that's alright. I'll try to go through the entire warehouse to see how different volumes react.

I actually do wish the Zs would shamble out even if they don't target the player. The game uses different sounds for when the zombies hear something vs. when they target something, which is an organic way to indicate the situation but hard to catch every time. I can't tell every grunt and groan from every other. Roland's idea of bringing back the eye icon is good, as an option or a mod at least. If the player has (and wants to have) a way to know if they're currently targeted, then having the Zs bust out, but not really have a target, would make for exciting duck-and-cover.

*Kinda. I'm simplifying a bit.

 

[hiemfire]

The game uses different sounds for when the zombies hear something vs. when they target something, which is an organic way to indicate the situation but hard to catch every time.

Unless they changed it from A19, my experience throwing rocks as a distraction and hunting ferals at night says otherwise. The sounds used are the same from what I remember, it just randomizes which one is played a bit between each investigating/targeting instance.

 

[Scyris]

I've been messing around in a few POIs, warehouse_06 turned out to be a good spot to test out an attack volume.

tppoi brings you to the front door, the volume of interest is the small break room in the opposite corner, the first zeds in the POI.

The zeds in that room spawn in when I walk across the yellow line outside.

They will agro 100% of the time when I sneak up the one block staircase towards their break room. Not even stealth level of 1 in the meter allows me to avoid agro. The zeds are showing light at about 3.3 at that point in the debug info.
Once agroed, they sprint at me at full speed. With the task ApproachAndAttackTarget

First I noticed I can drop their agro by doing a loop outside, leading them out, running a circle around them and then running back inside, crouching once back up in front of the break room. Takes less than 10 seconds, nowhere near a minute at least. Any faffing about can make them not drop agro, but the agro drop is quite repeatable. Can't say it isn't abusing line of sight, it probably is; but the 90 sec timer doesn't have time to count down.

Then I just did a loop in the parking lot with both zeds coming in agroed, was able to drop agro from both on the flat parking lot 3/3 tries. It's quite a dance, but perfectly repeatable. No LoS abuse there.

Additional info: A20.1 b6, navezgane, no relevant skills or gear, free use of sleeperreset and killall -commands. I haven't tested resetting the POI, changing the world or the save, so if any of those effect the spawns/mechanics/other_rng, I won't know.

For my opinion of it... it feels a bit bad. They'll come at you regardless of your stealth display being at 1, and the way to avoid getting hit is a silly dance routine on a parking lot. I don't want the stealth gameplay to be popping sleepyheads, but this specific version is rather the opposite. The sleepyheads are popping you just for existing.

EDIT_1: I did take out a light source or two at the entrance area, at least one above the door; so if one can't get to stealth 1 at the stairs, that might be the reason.

Yeah the problem is less the ambush and the fact they immedatly know where you are no matter what you do. If they woke up and wandered around like outdoor spawns that haven't seen you yet, so they don't rush you and so you can get sneak attacks on them i'd not mind. But the fact they rush you no matter what is the problem. They basically know your there, and lock on/chase you right on activate.

 

[Scyris]

Can we see the code on that? I really doubt that 11 of them are coded as ambush volumes. Just because you wake them up does not mean they are ambush volumes. It means you failed your stealth check. But show me in the code that 11 out of those 12 volumes are flagged as ambushes and I'll believe you and join you in criticizing that design. Otherwise, you have to destroy light sources and increase your perks to have a good chance at not waking zombies up. It is much harder now in A20 but I know that the intended design was to make almost all volumes do stealth checks and only a very few being auto aggro ambush rooms.

That being said, I have seen a lot more rooms in which zombies are spawning right before my eyes. I step in and there is nothing and I back up and then step forward again and they spawn often in places I can see so I think there is a bug going on with it but intentional design where all the volumes in any one POI are designated as ambush volumes is something I doubt highly and am not going to believe it just based on the fact that they woke up when you walked into the room.

Considering I was stealth the entire time? and I often destroy the pile of garbage thats always behind a door in the path your meant to walk. All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are. Before in A19 you could enter the ambush volume in a different way and not trigger it, however in A20 a lot of these sleeper volumes do not spawn the zombies at all unless you step on the ambush trigger, which means when your on a clear quest, you cannot finish it, as the volume does not spawn UNLESS you step on the block that causes the ambush. Its TFP being TFP and forcing you to play in a certain way. I miss back in a16.4 when the player had choice, what weapon you used determined how high you up perks for it, you could stealth or go in guns blazing.

The stat system was the dumbest thing TFP has done to the game by far. Their excuse was to avoid "level gate" However, that was ONE level gate, now we have 5 gates instead of one. SO they made the problem WORSE and not better. Not to mention some stats are just worth more than others, str/int being the big 2, while the rest especially in A20 are kinda useless, especially Agi since stealth is a near non-option, which renders several agility perks near useless and a waste of skill points. This is not directly related to the stealth thing but it sort of is, as the way it is in A20 it makes Agility even less worth investing in as many of its perks are completly negated due to the ambush volumes being so prevalient.