PC So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

bloodmoth13 said:
There is a state between sleeping and hunting you down that needs to be used more.
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I think maybe it's used more than you think, but also it would be nice if zombies were spawned into a wandering/patrol state instead of just sleeping/hidden. I agree that shooting the closet door in front of a sleeper ought to wake it up, but currently the game doesn't model block break sounds so all the zombie hears is the quiet (?) *thunk* of your crossbow. Which is centered across the room where you made the shot.

But once awakened, if you are a skilled, perked stealth player in a dark room, you have a very good chance to avoid any "hunting you down" zombies. Most of them will wake up into either "wander" mode or "investigate noise" mode. The latter will cause zombies to bust through walls perhaps, but they are not GPS-ing to you. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions since they reworked stealth in A19. The "I heard something" zombies are confused for "targeting the player" zombies, when they are not.

I highly recommend people read /config/stealth.txt. It lays it out pretty well (not in code - normal human speak).

Edit: there is more nuance in this than I originally posted. See later in the thread (pg 5/6) where Faatal gives some info and we start tracking the behavior of 'attack volume' zombies. They do have a chance to lock onto you even if they couldn't really see you, but that can be defeated by stealth (From the Shadows perk).

theFlu said:
Falls out of closet

Runs to sound-origin

Once there, attacks the player if player's current stealth isn't sufficient to prevent it
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That describes a zombie running the "ApproachDistraction" AI task. The zombie heard something, but has no target on the player. Pretty easily avoided by a stealth player, since the zombie's direction of movement will not change as the player moves. They're just going towards a spot.

A zombie running "ApproachAndAttackTarget" AI task looks like this:

  1. Falls out of closet
  2. Runs directly at player, even if player is moving
  3. If player runs away far enough or enters a dark enough stealth posture, revert to "ApproachDistraction" or "Wander" AI task
  4. Otherwise, keep chasing/attacking the player
For a highly-skilled stealth player, step 3 there might be so easy that the difference between the two is trivial. Which is an excellent endorsement of the value of the stealth perks.

It's really not different from any other stealth game - if the guard hears something, he comes to investigate. If he doesn't see anything he shrugs and goes back to wandering around/patrolling. If he sees you, he attacks. If he saw you at the very start, he chases you as far as he can still see you, after which maybe he goes to the last place he saw you and checks around, but then returns to wander/patrol. The zombies behave the same way. (It might be that you don't see any difference between "heard something" and "actively targeting you" behaviors in other games either. Which is completely fair and consistent!)

 
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Boidster said:
A zombie running "ApproachAndAttackTarget" AI task looks like this:

  1. Falls out of closet
  2. Runs directly at player, even if player is moving
  3. If player runs away far enough or enters a dark enough stealth posture, revert to "ApproachDistraction" or "Wander" AI task
  4. Otherwise, keep chasing/attacking the player
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In my testing the "AppoachAndAttackTarget" doesn't seem to survive a stealth check though? It's not necessarily easy to accomplish, but I can drop a Darlene while she has line of sight with just stealthing. Making the functional end result a current-stealth-check for both cases, no?

 
theFlu said:
Could you explain that part to me, like I'm five?
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I think Boidster did a great job but probably more for age ten and up...

Behavior 1

Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls unaware of player but wants investigate noise

It recovers from the ragdoll and moves to where the noise happens

It does not try to attack any player unless it sees a player

That allows a player to crouch and shoot it in the head for full stealth bonus

Behavior 2

Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls but it saw the player

It recovers from the ragdoll and moves toward the player

It tries to attack the player and will chase the player and not give up until it can no longer see the player for <timer affected by perk>

If the player shoots the zombie in the head there is no stealth bonus

In both cases the player can react by moving from their original spot. But in the first case the player is not under pressure from an attacking zombie. The player can throw a rock and the zombie will go to where the rock lands (incidentally, so will any and all zombies ringing the POI beating on the walls....). the player can shoot the zombie in the head with a silent weapon for the stealth bonus and if there are multiple zombies without alerting the other zombies.

With the second behavior the zombie just chases the player wherever the player moves attacking them so the player most likely will have to use a strong melee weapon or a loud range weapon with rapid fire to get rid of the pressure. So no stealth. The player could run away around a few corners, maybe shut a door, and wait and then return and stealthily kill the zombies that have by now exited their aggro state and are just wandering around now.

That was probably an 8 year old explanation. ;)

 
theFlu said:
In my testing the "AppoachAndAttackTarget" doesn't seem to survive a stealth check though? It's not necessarily easy to accomplish, but I can drop a Darlene while she has line of sight with just stealthing. Making the functional end result a current-stealth-check for both cases, no?
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Correct. ApproachAndAttackTarget cannot be stealthed unless and until the player gets out of sight and allows the timer to resolve. Once a zombie sees you and knows you are there you can't just crouch and it immediately loses you (ahem...that was A16 at night)

As far as I know, the stealth check is only used to determine whether a sleeper will wake up. Failing a stealth check does not mean that the zombie saw you. It means that it did not remain asleep. When it wakes up it either sees you right away and moves to attack you or it does not see you and it moves to investigate the noise that woke it up. When you are in stealth with awake zombies in the vicinity the game is not rolling stealth checks. If you are in a state of stealth and a zombie is nearby you will stay in stealth unless the zombie sees you.

So when you are outside at night there are no stealth checks because you are not activating a sleeper volume. Those zombies outside cannot see you so even if you wound them with an arrow and then back up a bit you are still in stealth because they can't see you. They just know where the arrow came from or heard the twang and come running to investigate that and if it is dark enough so that they don't see you there is no stealth check that you can fail.

 
I just want to add a bit of criticism for the game to all of this. I understand that because of the tight quarters and light sources it probably isn't always possible to pull off a stealthy reaction. I think this is another reason to get rid of the light trails or as @Viktoriusiii has suggested at the very least make them one shot destroyable with an arrow or a melee weapon. But better in my opinion to just get rid of the inexplicable flashlights and lamps that somehow have power and are pointing at holes in the walls. I hate them and if removing them would facilitate stealth a bit more I think it is another great reason to get rid of them. But shooting out all the lights could also be interesting as long as it was just one shot for each. 

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool

 
Because it's not confusing enough, I'll point out that "stealth" has sound and vision components so "a stealth check" can mean a couple of different things. And the game models it all from the zombie's point of view, i.e.

1) Was that sound above the hearing threshold of Z

2) Can Z detect an entity within its cone of vision

For D&D nerds, it's the DM rolling to see if the monsters hear you, not you rolling vs your Stealth skill. The perks and mods and books make you harder to hear and harder to see. Only if you are seen, though, will a zombie target you for attack.

Roland said:
So when you are outside at night there are no stealth checks because you are not activating a sleeper volume.
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:classic_blink:  I guess it depends on how you define "stealth check". I think they are always (or often) checking for visible entities within their cone of vision. To the extent [zombie vision] vs. [player illumination & distance] = "stealth check" it's arguable they are making them all the time. I'm not sure there's a significant difference between sleeper behavior and biome spawn behavior in this regard, with the exception that sleepers begin 'sleeping' and only a noise (or possibly a volume trigger) can wake them up.

I dunno, it could just be different definitions of "stealth check" in our heads.

 
Boidster said:
:classic_blink:  I guess it depends on how you define "stealth check". I think they are always (or often) checking for visible entities within their cone of vision. To the extent [zombie vision] vs. [player illumination & distance] = "stealth check" it's arguable they are making them all the time. I'm not sure there's a significant difference between sleeper behavior and biome spawn behavior in this regard, with the exception that sleepers begin 'sleeping' and only a noise (or possibly a volume trigger) can wake them up.

I dunno, it could just be different definitions of "stealth check" in our heads.
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The difference is that the stealth check that is rolled when you enter a sleeper volume is a random check made by the game and regardless of what you as a player is doing you can fail that check and one or more zombies can wake up. The only thing you can do as a player is increase your stealth skill which reduces the chance of failing that skill check. When you are outside there is no random roll of the dice to see if a zombie detects you. You are only detected if you enter into their cone of vision period. So it is a kind of a check but it is one the player through skill can navigate and will only fail by accident or noobiness. 

 
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Roland said:
Correct. ApproachAndAttackTarget cannot be stealthed unless and until the player gets out of sight and allows the timer to resolve. Once a zombie sees you and knows you are there you can't just crouch and it immediately loses you (ahem...that was A16 at night)
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Ehh, you've misread me, probably due to the term "Line of Sight" having taken its negative as its meaning. I was arguing - and doing - exactly what you call impossible.

I've now cleared half of the Crack-a-book tower by:

Showing myself to a zed

Ensuring it goes into "ApproachAndAttackTarget" on the debug info

Running away in the tight space offered

Stealthing while the zed HAS line of sight to me. It loses agro if I manage to succeed the stealth check*. Doesn't need a block in between us, just a successful moment of stealth.

The "stealth check" I refer to is the mechanic as Boid describes; zeds are always checking if they can detect you. If they can't, they stop chasing.

Sleeper volumes may or may not have a separate check at entering, that I don't know.

 
Roland said:
I just want to add a bit of criticism for the game to all of this. I understand that because of the tight quarters and light sources it probably isn't always possible to pull off a stealthy reaction. I think this is another reason to get rid of the light trails or as @Viktoriusiii has suggested at the very least make them one shot destroyable with an arrow or a melee weapon. But better in my opinion to just get rid of the inexplicable flashlights and lamps that somehow have power and are pointing at holes in the walls. I hate them and if removing them would facilitate stealth a bit more I think it is another great reason to get rid of them. But shooting out all the lights could also be interesting as long as it was just one shot for each. 

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool
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They'd need to change where the impact and break "noises" are generated from for it to work. It's why we can shoot out a closet door from across the room and the occupant of that closet doesn't "hear" it but if we do from only a couple paces out the occupant gets grumpy.

 
theFlu said:
Ehh, you've misread me, probably due to the term "Line of Sight" having taken its negative as its meaning. I was arguing - and doing - exactly what you call impossible.

I've now cleared half of the Crack-a-book tower by:

Showing myself to a zed

Ensuring it goes into "ApproachAndAttackTarget" on the debug info

Running away in the tight space offered

Stealthing while the zed HAS line of sight to me. It loses agro if I manage to succeed the stealth check*. Doesn't need a block in between us, just a successful moment of stealth.

The "stealth check" I refer to is the mechanic as Boid describes; zeds are always checking if they can detect you. If they can't, they stop chasing.

Sleeper volumes may or may not have a separate check at entering, that I don't know.
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Are you fully perked into stealth for these tests? There is a timer that counts down once they lose sight of you and I can't remember but I think unperked it is 90 seconds while fully perked it is almost instantaneous.

hiemfire said:
They'd need to change where the impact and break "noises" are generated from for it to work. It's why we can shoot out a closet door from across the room and the occupant of that closet doesn't "hear" it but if we do from only a couple paces out the occupant gets grumpy.
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That would also be extremely cool if the noise the zombies investigated was the breaking light rather than where the arrow came from. That could open up all sorts of fun stealthy gameplay-- particularly if bandits followed the same rules for investigating sounds.

 
Roland said:
Are you fully perked into stealth for these tests? There is a timer that counts down once they lose sight of you and I can't remember but I think unperked it is 90 seconds while fully perked it is almost instantaneous.
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Butt naked, no skills. Wouldn't have the patience to dance for a minute.

 
So if I understand right, if a bunch of zombies wake up in a room and you throw a rock in the opposite direction, any zombies that are awake but don't detect you will run towards the rock and any zombies that are actively aggroing you will ignore the rock?

Just trying to see if there is a fast/easy way to discern between the two modes without waiting for them to walk all the way over to you

 
Roland said:
The only thing you can do as a player is increase your stealth skill which reduces the chance of failing that skill check. 
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Hmm...I'm going to go poke into the code to see about this. From what I saw/posted earlier I don't actually think it works that way, but maybe. Everything I saw implied that it was always about "can the zombie hear you". There is no automatic, random, "roll vs. player's stealth skill" in there that I saw, but there is a fair amount of noobiness in my code-poking so I'll look at it again.

I'm pretty sure that it is only zombies who can make "skill checks" vs stealth. And it is never random. It is "was this sound above the threshold of hearing" or "is the player entity visible at X distance and with Y illumination". Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but when entering a volume the player doesn't "make a check" of any type. The zombies may get to make a check vs hearing or sight, but never the player.

 
Boidster said:
Hmm...I'm going to go poke into the code to see about this. From what I saw/posted earlier I don't actually think it works that way, but maybe. Everything I saw implied that it was always about "can the zombie hear you". There is no automatic, random, "roll vs. player's stealth skill" in there that I saw, but there is a fair amount of noobiness in my code-poking so I'll look at it again.

I'm pretty sure that it is only zombies who can make "skill checks" vs stealth. And it is never random. It is "was this sound above the threshold of hearing" or "is the player entity visible at X distance and with Y illumination". Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but when entering a volume the player doesn't "make a check" of any type. The zombies may get to make a check vs hearing or sight, but never the player.
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I can also ask faatal for clarification. I'm pretty sure it is how he explained it but I could have misunderstood.

 
NekoPawtato said:
So if I understand right, if a bunch of zombies wake up in a room and you throw a rock in the opposite direction, any zombies that are awake but don't detect you will run towards the rock and any zombies that are actively aggroing you will ignore the rock?

Just trying to see if there is a fast/easy way to discern between the two modes without waiting for them to walk all the way over to you
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Possibly, yes. I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing. You can do it outside pretty easily by hiding behind something and firing a shot. Then throw a rock and watch the zombies who (presumably) are shambling towards you. I've used rocks to distract zombies, but never tried it that I can remember with already-distracted zombies.

One obvious way to notice is to change the walk/run speed of agro'd zombies. When they start jogging/running at you, you know they've got a lock.

Roland said:
I can also ask faatal for clarification.
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Name-dropper. :D  

 
Boidster said:
Possibly, yes. I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing. You can do it outside pretty easily by hiding behind something and firing a shot. Then throw a rock and watch the zombies who (presumably) are shambling towards you. I've used rocks to distract zombies, but never tried it that I can remember with already-distracted zombies.
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You can also test it easily by throwing one rock and then throwing a second rock in a different direction. I believe they ignore the second rock until going to the first rock.

Boidster said:
Name-dropper. :D  
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yep, and I sent him a link to this thread if he has time to look at it and clear up any misconception of mine or anyone else's. Maybe ya'll can fill two pages of ROLAND IS WRONG posts if and when faatal tells us the truth.

 
My (mis-)conception: the following is what determines if a sleeper can detect the player, and there is no RNG-based skill check going on when entering a volume.

Code: 
[class PlayerStealth]

public bool CanSleeperAttackDetect(EntityAlive _e)
  {
    if (this.player.IsCrouching)
    {
      float num = Mathf.Lerp(3f, 15f, (float) (((double) this.lightAttackPercent - 0.349999994039536) * 1.53846156597137));
      if ((double) _e.GetDistance((Entity) this.player) > (double) num)
        return false;
    }
    return true;
  }
 
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