PC So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[Kyonshi]

But we general players do not know how that works.
We can only tell you how it FEELS like. (which is also a very important feedback).

And I can tell you: I didn't even know A19 had auto-wake up rooms.
A20 it feels like every room is an auto-wake up even with insane sneaking skills.

Well, feelings are a subjective interpretation of something, therefore it isn't a factual reference. The importance that feelings should gain regarding concepts that require factual and technical data to be fixed, if there's a need to, is largely debatable.

Case in point, I'm an avid stealth player. I actually have a hard time playing otherwise, my immersive process demands to play stealthy like 95% of the time. I have a solid certitude that no, not all rooms are auto-wake up. This is a laughable exaggeration. If things would have been like you described them, I would have never bothered putting points in that skill.

I do come across rooms that are an inevitable trigger for Zs, but for a vast amount of time I spend playing, I can handle most of my possible stealth kills with success, with proper and careful precautions. This has been debated during A19 and I think it was Roland that once said that this isn't a pure stealth game and players should consider that you can't breeze your way with 100% stealth kills because that's something the designers don't wanna see. But they're also determined to make a stealth approach totally enjoyable for those who choose this path.

Now, of course this feature isn't perfect and I think that the part of the community that judges too hard should check their own perceptions before stating there's something wrong with the stealth mechanics like it's a fact. This isn't Splinter Cell, Tenchu or Thief and with the millions of possible interactions and conflicts the technical design of 7DTD generates, it's a colossal task to set up a feature that's stable enough for the eventual finished gold game.

 

[Laz Man]

And what has prevented them from falling through the ceiling up til now?

I understand the "this isn't real life" argument, but some things are harder to ignore.

For me, zombies packed neatly into shipping crates, hidden behind false walls, and chilling out above the ceiling tiles is a bit of a stretch.

I think monster closets and drop ceilings can be believable as long as they are not overused and the environment supports it.

For example, zombies dropping in from a ceiling from a compromised 2nd floor or a zombie falling from a ceiling vent and the player later runs across where the person / zombie possibly crawled in from.

 

[ElDudorino]

For the 77-87% moving around is it okay if they go from dormant to moving around where you can witness that change happening? Or do you prefer them to already be moving around before you get to their area?

Either is fine. What makes sense to me is kind of a combination of the two. It is, after all, the behavior I'd expect from the sleepers, instead of them staying dormant even when I shoot the wall next to them but getting up as soon as I cross an invisible line.

For me, sleepers aren't necessary at all for a good stealth experience, though I think their existence is kind of cool and atmospheric. I'd be happy with a building full of zombies wandering around and I'd have to figure out their behavior or find a good hiding spot, or snipe them, to avoid notice. Maybe I peek in through a hole in the ceiling and pick a few off that way, get a few more through some open windows, etc.

 

[asmosnuts]

     I think the spawning in after you enter the room is a much bigger problem. Stealth is still viable, not all triggered zs gps to you, often moving a few steps away is enough to end their search for you. Yes there are some hairy moments when a group of ferals run at you. But the interest would soon wane if you could just crawl through every poi not alerting anything.

    You may need to think differently at times and be more careful in some situations, at least the game is engaging again! Some randomness would help rather than facing the same enemies in the same positions in the same buildings ad infinitum.

   Other than that there are a lot more positives , imho, than there have been in quite a while.

 

[Laz Man]

     I think the spawning in after you enter the room is a much bigger problem. Stealth is still viable, not all triggered zs gps to you, often moving a few steps away is enough to end their search for you. Yes there are some hairy moments when a group of ferals run at you. But the interest would soon wane if you could just crawl through every poi not alerting anything.

    You may need to think differently at times and be more careful in some situations, at least the game is engaging again! Some randomness would help rather than facing the same enemies in the same positions in the same buildings ad infinitum.

   Other than that there are a lot more positives , imho, than there have been in quite a while.

Agreed.  Keep those POI reports coming everyone so level design can at least take a look at specific setups.  I will look at the Tier 3 clothing store loot room in a bit to see if I can see any improvements for the designer to consider.

 

[BarryTGash]

with military stealth boots, full military light armor, and max stealth perks (+Night Stalker 2 & Urban Combat 3)

Appreciate your thoroughness as always. What tier is restuarant_02, 3 I think? The gear and skills you're packing are quite advanced - I would imagine if your test could be repeated with max stealth skills, primarily padded armour (for stealth not damage mitigation), a couple of muffled connectors, no stealth boots or books, then that might represent better a typical player's progression when they hit tier 3 quests. What you're rolling with would be tier 4 at least perhaps?

I don't think any changes would really affect my personal playstyle too much. I'm far too impatient to sneak everywhere. I'll sneak what I can sneak and go Conan (not O'Brien), then Rambo when the sneaking is done

Is it an ambush if they aren't targeting you when they fall to the ground?

An ambush is defined as a surprise attack from a concealed location. I don't think the success matters, just the intent. As we all know what it's referring to in the context of 7D2D, I think the word is good enough.

The importance that feelings should gain regarding concepts that require factual and technical data to be fixed, if there's a need to, is largely debatable.

But in this situation, the players do not have access to the code - the technical data is not available, thus anecdotal interpretation is the best players can provide unless they can devote the time required to perform multiple runs of the same POI. But even those results are just based on feelings/reactions rather than technical data.

Granted, everyone's reactions will be different, as yours are to who you replied to. We, as players, cannot accurately determine who is more correct. Only TFP, who have access to the technical data, can determine who appears to be having the more correct experience. If more players are not experiencing things as intended then perhaps things need tweaking. Conversely, if the majority appear to be fine, are there enough in the minority to change anything?

 I think the spawning in after you enter the room is a much bigger problem

Agreed.

Some randomness would help

And agreed!

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Interesting...I could have sworn you participated in some of those threads.

Either I have honestly forgotten... or I didn't.

I left in mid A17 and only REALLY sporadicially left comments here on the forum.
But honestly... so long ago... but I never felt it was a problem at least.

Why that was, I can not say.

 

[meganoth]

Appreciate your thoroughness as always. What tier is restuarant_02, 3 I think? The gear and skills you're packing are quite advanced - I would imagine if your test could be repeated with max stealth skills, primarily padded armour (for stealth not damage mitigation), a couple of muffled connectors, no stealth boots or books, then that might represent better a typical player's progression when they hit tier 3 quests. What you're rolling with would be tier 4 at least perhaps?

I don't think any changes would really affect my personal playstyle too much. I'm far too impatient to sneak everywhere. I'll sneak what I can sneak and go Conan (not O'Brien), then Rambo when the sneaking is done

An ambush is defined as a surprise attack from a concealed location. I don't think the success matters, just the intent. As we all know what it's referring to in the context of 7D2D, I think the word is good enough.

But in this situation, the players do not have access to the code - the technical data is not available, thus anecdotal interpretation is the best players can provide unless they can devote the time required to perform multiple runs of the same POI. But even those results are just based on feelings/reactions rather than technical data.

Not exactly. Most players have bits and pieces of knowledge from previous versions that colors their experiences and lets them interpret actions of the zombies in that light. Best example is that it is difficult for long time players to notice that  zombies actually might not have seen you when they fall out of closets.

Granted, everyone's reactions will be different, as yours are to who you replied to. We, as players, cannot accurately determine who is more correct. Only TFP, who have access to the technical data, can determine who appears to be having the more correct experience. If more players are not experiencing things as intended then perhaps things need tweaking. Conversely, if the majority appear to be fine, are there enough in the minority to change anything?

Agreed.

And agreed!

 

[Boidster]

The gear and skills you're packing are quite advanced - I would imagine if your test could be repeated with max stealth skills, primarily padded armour (for stealth not damage mitigation), a couple of muffled connectors, no stealth boots or books, then that might represent better a typical player's progression when they hit tier 3 quests.

I will try that, however I actually think that setup might be more stealthy. The military armor has a 10% noise increase per piece and I had no muffled connectors in it. I don't think padded adds any noise at all. Losing the military boots and the nightstalker book would net +15% noise, but I think the total noise level would be -15% (-30% from switching to padded, +15% due to loss of boots & book). But I'll test it out. I originally was just testing the proposition that the volumes are auto-attack, auto-GPS, and un-stealthable. That is clearly not true.

 

[Boidster]

But in this situation, the players do not have access to the code

*pushes glasses up nose* Ackshually, if you are a coder or are code-curious, you can see all of it, with TFP's blessings, using a tool like dotPeek or dnSpy. It's how all the expert modders are able to do their thing. Here's a bit relevant to the stealth discussion:

Spoiler

  public int GetSleeperDisturbedLevel(float dist, float lightLevel)
  {
    float t = dist / this.sightRangeBase;
    if ((double) t <= 1.0)
    {
      float num1 = Mathf.Lerp(this.sightWakeThresholdAtRange.x, this.sightWakeThresholdAtRange.y, t);
      if ((double) lightLevel > (double) num1)
        return 2;
      float num2 = Mathf.Lerp(this.sightGroanThresholdAtRange.x, this.sightGroanThresholdAtRange.y, t);
      if ((double) lightLevel > (double) num2)
        return 1;
    }
    return 0;
  }

There is a LOT of code to wade through. This is just the "EntityAlive" class, in 4pt font. There are hundreds of classes.

 

[ElDudorino]

I doubt you'll get a different result. Based on what you've already shared it's probably true that a zombie whose ambush has been triggered won't necessarily actually know where you are.

The core issue is the same, though. Way too many zombies don't 'exist' until you trigger their spawn, or hide in ridiculous places to trigger a jump-scare so you have to be sure to trigger their ambush condition to clear them out. They will remain in the ambush position even if you shotgun blast somebody in the same room if you haven't stepped over their trigger, and if you expose them without triggering the ambush they can stare directly at you while you flash a light in their eyes and they won't react. That's just silly, and I think the insistence on having jump scares in every PoI (usually several) is weak.

 

[Roland]

An ambush is defined as a surprise attack from a concealed location. I don't think the success matters, just the intent. As we all know what it's referring to in the context of 7D2D, I think the word is good enough.

The question is not about success or failure of the ambush. The question is whether the zombies know the player is there. A trigger causes them to fall from the rafters but that is all they are doing-- falling. They aren't trying to attack or surprise anyone. There is no intent to do anything other than get up after falling. In a battle, the enemy soldiers who are ambushing know that their prey is there and attack with the intent to kill them completely. If their ambush fails for some reason, I agree that it can still be an ambush. If the soldiers come stumbling out of the woods without knowing enemies are there but the enemies get surprised by the sudden appearance of soldiers-- that's not an ambush.

So I don't think ambush is a good enough word if the zombies falling out of the ceiling supports is simply a triggered physics event but the zombies are not already attacking and may never attack if the player keeps his cool and remains hidden in the shadows and then shoots them in the head and gets the stealth bonus as well.

 

[ElDudorino]

That's just semantics. Maybe there's a better word to use than "ambush" but clearly we all understand the phenomenon that's being discussed. The zombies don't fall from the ceiling unless you step into the zone that triggers them falling, so it's obviously designed in the same way an ambush is designed, but you can call it a triggered physics event or whatever. In many cases the ceiling section the zombies are in is completely closed off so the player has no way to get the drop on them and shoot them first.

In the case of closet ambushes (or whatever word is appropriate), you can often get the drop on them by just smashing every closet door you come across in case someone is there, but it's honestly silly that it's so common you basically have to assume every closet door has something behind it.

Also, those rooftop zombies who are hidden behind a closed vent that doesn't open and they suddenly break through the metal when you get close... what is that all about? How did you get there, zombie? We're throwing any semblance of logic or common sense out the window in order to have a jump scare that's honestly predictable after the first time but will be repeated on rooftop after rooftop.

 

[Roland]

That's just semantics. Maybe there's a better word to use than "ambush" but clearly we all understand the phenomenon that's being discussed. The zombies don't fall from the ceiling unless you step into the zone that triggers them falling, so it's obviously designed in the same way an ambush is designed, but you can call it a triggered physics event or whatever. In many cases the ceiling section the zombies are in is completely closed off so the player has no way to get the drop on them and shoot them first.

I'm sorry but it is not just semantics. Enemies aware of you vs enemies not aware of you are very different things. Forget about the words and focus on the gameplay aspect. 

How can you as a player react and play if the enemies are already aware of you when they fall vs how can you as a player react and play if the enemies are not aware of you as they fall?

In the first case your only recourse is to either run away and hide and hope they don't track you until they lose interest and then you can return and stealth kill them or you can just abandon stealth and destroy them with guns blazing.

In the second case you can crouch and hide and watch what they do before setting up a klling headshot still from stealth or you can retreat and re-emerge once you know they are unaware of you or you can throw a rock to make them head in whichever direction you want them to go and then kill them from stealth or you can abandon stealth and kill them guns blazing.

In the first case you can't get the drop on them because they are aware of you first. In the second case you can still get the drop on them because they are unaware of you even though they are now moving around.

I understand that at least part of what you are talking about is the problem with the trigger not happening so those zombies never fall and the player passes on by and then the quest becomes grueling to complete because you have to find those untriggered zeds. I agree that is a problem and I hope they can fix that possibly with backup triggers when you leave a volume so that anything that did not trigger, triggers so you can turn around and clear before getting too far along.

But my focus is on stealth gameplay and I personally much prefer there to be enemies that fall and wake up (unaware of the player), enemies that roam around (unaware of the player) and enemies that are dormant. I like that variety much more than just all enemies being dormant and we as players have stealth gameplay that is limited to shooting the heads of unconscious zombies. I'm not sure how anyone could advocate for gameplay limited to what adds up to shooting up a coma ward but who knows...?

 

[Roland]

In other words, if zombies are falling out of ceilings or falling out of closets and they are doing so unaware of me so I can still choose to stealth and get the drop on them or play it some other way then I am perfectly fine with that happening in 11/12 rooms of a POI. Why are 12/12 rooms of sleeping comatose enemies laying in plain sight okay and not too much of the same thing but anything more than 2-3 rooms of conscious zombies is just too much and needs to be made more random and rare? 

It really really seems to me to be that you guys really just prefer coma patients as enemies. Should we change the game so that the blood moon puts them into an even deeper sleep for even greater thrills....?

 

[ElDudorino]

I advocated for roaming zombies in this very thread and it seems like you're conveniently ignoring that.  Unfortunately there *aren't* roaming zombies in PoIs, unless you count the ones on the street who come to investigate the PoI after you go in.  You have sleepers in obvious places, and then you have sleepers set up for jump scares.  And I expect that most players would never know that the jump scare zombies technically don't know you're there, because intuitively when a zombie jumps out of a closet at you the moment you pass by you're going to assume it knows you're there and you're going to react accordingly.  But also, like BarryTGash says, when everything is an ambush, nothing is an ambush.  The jump scare/ambush/whatever you want to call them are cheapened because they're constant.  You don't get a break from them in PoIs and it just feels sloppy and messy, like the devs knew they wanted to put in some scares so they just took the paintbrush and swiped it all over everything.

 

[Roland]

I advocated for roaming zombies in this very thread and it seems like you're conveniently ignoring that.

Not at all. Glad you want roaming enemies. Me too. But I don't necessarily care if they start roaming before I reach them or as I reach them. It doesn't bother me to see the event that woke them up and started them roaming. Of course, I'd like the variety of having the already roaming type as well. Also, I'm not just talking about you, I'm talking about the general dislike of zombies falling out of ceiling. 

And I expect that most players would never know that the jump scare zombies technically don't know you're there, because intuitively when a zombie jumps out of a closet at you the moment you pass by you're going to assume it knows you're there and you're going to react accordingly. 

That's true. But there are tons of things about this game that new players aren't going to know until they experience it and figure out what is happening. I started noticing that some of the zombies didn't attack me right away. After more experience and coming here and reading if I discover that most of the time the zombies are unaware of me then that is a huge discovery and will affect how I stealth in the game. Provided that it is true that most of the time when zombies come crashing into view awake but unaware of us then, to me, that is a welcome addition to stealth gameplay.

But also, like BarryTGash says, when everything is an ambush, nothing is an ambush.

Not if it turns out that most of them aren't actually ambushes. I know you want to diminish my conceptual argument about aware vs unaware enemies to just a semantics argument but I hope other readers are discerning enough to see that if zombies are moving around (whether they surprised you or not) unaware of the player and the player is able to maintain stealth then that is very very different than zombies moving to attack the player knowing exactly where the player is. You can call one of those events an ambush but not the other and not because I'm trying to find some slight nuance of phrase to make my point.

The jump scare/ambush/whatever you want to call them are cheapened because they're constant.  You don't get a break from them in PoIs and it just feels sloppy and messy, like the devs knew they wanted to put in some scares so they just took the paintbrush and swiped it all over everything.

Even if it was true that they were constantly falling out of places in every single room (which in my experience is not true), if they are unaware of the player when they do so and the player has the choice between stealth or open attack, then so what? You know what has been overdone and painted with a broad brush? Sleepers. In A16 thats all we had and then in A17-A19 we had mostly sleepers and some attack volumes where the zombies were aware and attacked the players. But did we hear a loud outcry about getting no breaks from comatose enemies? Did anyone ask why are all these sleepers so constant? No...they complained about the few attack volumes that broke it up every once in awhile.

Again, it bears testing. I would not want 11/12 rooms where zombies emerge already aware of me and attacking me. If it turns out that is the case then for sure I am 100% for changing that. But if it turns out that in most of those rooms the zombies don't know I'm there then 110% that is more enjoyable and engaging gameplay than shooting frozen sleeping enemies. That's how I see it.

 

[Boidster]

I think they definitely made a stylistic choice about the hidden zombies. Part of the issue they are trying to overcome is the problem of zombies popping into view when you cross a threshold. They have limits to how many zombie entities can be active at once and they try to keep it under control by only spawning zombies as needed while you proceed down the One True Path in a POI. When you enter the living room and trigger the sleeper volume, they don't want Zs to suddenly appear so they hide them behind boxes, in closets, in the ceiling, etc.

Ideally, a POI would be fully populated (with a mix of roaming, sleeping, and a few hidden) zombies before you enter it, but I dunno if that is technically feasible. It does look like some of the POI rework has tried to address it. In an earlier thread where we looked at an Army Camp POI, it sure looked to me like there was one big sleeper volume covering the entire camp, so that as soon as you entered the POI all of the Zs would spawn (inside tents or otherwise hidden) so that you could approach any area from any direction and not see pop-ins. Probably that sort of technique is required for an open-landscape POI like the army camp. In building-based POIs, TFP seems to have decided (maybe due to those technical limitations) to spawn zombies in as-you-go, and rely a lot on closet and ceiling zombies to obscure the moment they are spawned.

Laz Man said that they are trying to find POIs where zombies pop in and fix them, which implies that the "populate the entire POI as soon as I step foot on it" is not an option. They're trying to fix room-by-room issues, meaning our almost-always-hidden zombie occupants are the norm going forward. It could be that TFP really would prefer the more organically-populated POIs like we've described, but it's not technically feasible. Or if feasible, too costly to recode everything and rebuild the POIs so...closet zombies it is.

 

[Weazelsun]

From personal experience the modern house poi's definitely do seem to always have zombies wake up even when stealthed. Examples:

modern_house_01 when you go up the stairs via the garage and then the loot room.

modern_house_09 = loot room zombies wake up

modern_house_10 = again loot room zombies wake up

modern_house_13 = pretty much most zombies wake up in each of its zone. Zombie on the roof wakes up and falls down along with the zombies in the pool shed waking up. Then the zombie behind the trap door in the dining room. Zombie in the bathroom. Zombie behind the trap door across from the bathroom. Then the zombies in the loot room, bedroom and bathroom.

 

[Boidster]

modern_house_13 = pretty much most zombies wake up in each of its zone. Zombie on the roof wakes up and falls down along with the zombies in the pool shed waking up. Then the zombie behind the trap door in the dining room. Zombie in the bathroom. Zombie behind the trap door across from the bathroom. Then the zombies in the loot room, bedroom and bathroom.

I changed to padded (as suggested above) and removed both of the books from my skills, and only took 3 levels of the agility stealth perks. Then I bravely headed into house_modern_13. The pool-house zombies woke up because I stupidly stepped on trash. One of them targeted me, the other headed my way, but wasn't targeting so it lost interest when I backed away and sat still.

Entering the house, no zombies woke up so I shot the closet right by the entry window. Z was sleeping in there so she got murdered.

Spoiler

Then I walked around the living room area and shot the bathroom door. There was a dude and he did start walking towards me. Unsure if he was targeting me or just investigating the noise, but I shot him anyhow.

Spoiler

Then I walked to the kitchen area and shot another closet. Zombie sleeping in there did not wake up, but one did drop from the ceiling back where I had successfully snuck around before (didn't even drop when I shot the bathroom guy above). Must have made her d20 hearing check this time. She was not targeting me.

Spoiler

I didn't do the whole POI, but generally it seems to play like the others. Even with only 3 levels in the perks and no books, it is at least moderately stealthable. But stealth doesn't scale with gamestage so definitely higher-level, higher-perked players will do better.