I read what he posted and its clear that he feels the A17 zombie AI is good as it currently stands because it fixes the exploits and if we are losers we can turn the difficulty down to carebear mode. I honestly don't understand how you can read this whole thread and think that people just want to simply revert to the A16 AI *code*. What they want is for the zombies to *behave* more like they did in A16, spreading out around your base, being damaged by traps, acting more believably zombie-like. If you say this is in the works then surely having one of the devs come onto this thread and explain what their plans are rather than just "git gud" would go a long way to calming people's nerves?
PC Smart vs Dumb Zombies?
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
Roland
Moderator
You got too angry after taking what he typed in the first paragraph as an insult and you didn’t put it into context of the last line. He didn’t even use the words “Loser” and “Carebear”. That was you.
If you look at the last line it is clear that he is telling us that bandits are coming and need the better code of A17. You can’t talk about zombie behavior without talking about the code that drives it. Behavior of zombies doesn’t just spring from nothing. Faatal isn’t convincing them to behave a certain way. Whether the people in this thread understand that or not is immaterial. The old code can’t do smart bandits and dumb zombies but the new code can. That’s good news.
Faatal has posted a number of times that he will be able to randomize and dumbify things for the zombies as time goes on.
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I agree. If that's what was intended as his main point then he would have said something to that effect and not a single throw away sentence to support his main point after...
1) Stating the answer to the question posed which has been greeted by the participants with a near 50/50 split is self-evident and a waste of time. (Debate is moot etc.)
2) Cherry pick a few reasons why A16 was failing to meet expectations. (Even though I do not recall anyone in the discussion espousing the virtues of those flaws and instead why A17 AI is perceived as less engaging and fun. As you said yourself with the fact this discussion identified Blood Moons as being the only real point of contention for the two systems.)
3) Insert a git gud or turn the difficulty down. (Okay... Kind of off topic and out of no where but thanks for the meme.)
Even if this was their goal stating such during A17 launch/teasing would have been a great step towards setting player expectations.
I wish TFP communication in this regard was anywhere near The Indie Stone or Unknown Worlds. Both set a high bar in communicating the goal, status and intention for ongoing indie early access development studios.
Roland
Moderator
Fine. But now it has been clarified for you so take the good news and drop being butt hurt over any unintended blow to your gamer ego. I can assure you that Richard did not mean what he posted as a passive aggressive zinger. He was literally being helpful with some suggestions.
I’ll reiterate what he said: While zombies are being used to perfect the pathing and AI in anticipation of bandits you may:
Play with them as is
Turn down the difficulty
Make them always walk
Revert to A16.4
Use any mod that helps you enjoy them better.
Currently, the AI is a work zone and really the very epitome of early access gaming. Some people can’t enjoy unfinished features but they buy indev games anyway. In this particular case the above options may help.
I’ll reiterate what he said: While zombies are being used to perfect the pathing and AI in anticipation of bandits you may:
Play with them as is
Turn down the difficulty
Make them always walk
Revert to A16.4
Use any mod that helps you enjoy them better.
Currently, the AI is a work zone and really the very epitome of early access gaming. Some people can’t enjoy unfinished features but they buy indev games anyway. In this particular case the above options may help.
JaxTeller718
New member
Jesus even I understood what he was saying.
If zombie AI is not good, bandit Ai is not coming. What is so difficult about that. This time I feel people really ARE making a mountain out of a molehill. Richard could have just NOT posted.
If zombie AI is not good, bandit Ai is not coming. What is so difficult about that. This time I feel people really ARE making a mountain out of a molehill. Richard could have just NOT posted.
SilverWolf
New member
Wouldn't randomizing AI behaviour hit performance, especially in larger number of zombies/bandits etc, due to different simultaneous calculations? Sorry about this if it's off-topic, but I'm indeed curious(professional habbit) how it was/is going to be handled, so any link to that topic would be aprreciated.
RestInPieces
New member
I don't think it would have any impact on performance. Game still needs to run the script for each zombie, I don't see how each zombie being assigned a script with a different AI profile would be a problem.Wouldn't randomizing AI behaviour hit performance, especially in larger number of zombies/bandits etc, due to different simultaneous calculations? Sorry about this if it's off-topic, but I'm indeed curious(professional habbit) how it was/is going to be handled, so any link to that topic would be aprreciated.
Anabella
New member
I do prefer the AI better in a17. My only issues with zombies at the moment is the bonus buff they get to damaging blocks when the group up and the fact that game stages are getting me ferals and rads way sooner than I am personally ready for them. Makes looting POIs a pain with one to two people. Part of that might be that I am getting stunned and bleed constantly. There might be things I can put points in to help that but there are too many things that need points and too little points per level to do it if that is the case.
gpcstargate
New member
Pre Alpha 17 .. should be correct .. DUE to they are DEAD Beings and only purpose is Feeding.
Not path finding computers that can pin point the weakest spot on a Base.
OK .. if they want them to be a little smarter than average Dead person _ because of it being a game .... But at the moment they are to smart.
Just my thoughts on that subject ... Personally I just want them fix the game .. it is so messed up (RGW) at the moment.
Not path finding computers that can pin point the weakest spot on a Base.
OK .. if they want them to be a little smarter than average Dead person _ because of it being a game .... But at the moment they are to smart.
Just my thoughts on that subject ... Personally I just want them fix the game .. it is so messed up (RGW) at the moment.
For a moderator your posts are awfully aggressive (or defensive). "Butt hurt", "gamer ego" - nice. Regardless, I understand that early access means unfinished features, and my desire is simply for the devs to hear my concerns with the current situation and suggestions for improvement. If it is indeed recognized by the devs that the new zombie behavior is undesirable and that steps are underway to improve it, I will simply wait for an update. There doesn't seem to be much value continuing to wade through this morass of misconceptions and ad hominem attacks.
Hek Harris
New member
Hey survivor, assign some skill points to hard skin perk. These lands are hard
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The Fun Pimp
Fun Pimps Staff
Didn't mean to offend or incite anyone. Its easy to make the AI more random or a traditional dumb zombie but its harder to make them smarter and more challenging which has been requested for at least 3 years. Most people want us to close the exploits. At the end of the day its a game and we want to make it fun and a game without challenge is a game that is no longer fun. We have and will continue to attempt to make the game scalable to a wide audience with game options to tweak the simulation. Even then its impossible to please everyone.
It's entirely possible in future builds we scale back the zombies and leave the smarter bits for the bandits but only after we get them really great challenge wise.
For the record zombies have been climbing ladders since like Alpha 1 and bee-lining too you on blood moons and nobody complained about this
Cheers Richard
crossed
New member
Wasn't like every night blood moon back then?For the record zombies have been climbing ladders since like Alpha 1 and bee-lining too you on blood moons and nobody complained about this
I haven't been around, I just watched older let's plays.Also zombies used to always run inside (dark?) buildings and slowed down when they got into the light? I'd love to see that mechanic again, having to remove the barricade from windows just to light up a room and make it safer...
I (long time lurker) created an account just for this poll, as i am very confused right now.
My vote goes to post-A17 behavior, but only because I don't need to gather as many resources as in A16 to repair everything after a blood moon night.
My confusion stems from the fact that most of you are repeating yourself that the AI is harder / better.
A friend of mine is no fan of cheesing the zombies and refused to build a design involving any looping zombies. So we went ahead to build a "+" shaped bunker. It has a single flagstone column in its centre with ladders on all 4 sides leading to the second floor with normal wooden hatches ontop in case they break in. Guess what?
They made a single point of entry in the outer wall as expected, but the AI failed shortly after that. With all of us on the second floor the zombies were unable to find their way up. Only after opening the hatches they were in the mood to come upstairs. Closing the hatch again would make them run around in circles again on the first floor, just like their A16 counterparts with a bit more jumping. Not only did they run in circles but it didn't take long for them to destroy the central column with their only legit way up to us.
The result was a totally safe night with us shooting down on them. It was a let down for my friend who was so eager to fight them, only to let the AI cheese itself. Are they really doing that much better then before? At least they seem to better navigate POIs.
I hope faatal can tweak it once he has the time for it, as of right now it wasn't the best experience.
Anyway, thanks for this game and the many hours of enjoyment nonetheless!
But i had to use this Poll for feedback :fat:
My vote goes to post-A17 behavior, but only because I don't need to gather as many resources as in A16 to repair everything after a blood moon night.
My confusion stems from the fact that most of you are repeating yourself that the AI is harder / better.
A friend of mine is no fan of cheesing the zombies and refused to build a design involving any looping zombies. So we went ahead to build a "+" shaped bunker. It has a single flagstone column in its centre with ladders on all 4 sides leading to the second floor with normal wooden hatches ontop in case they break in. Guess what?
They made a single point of entry in the outer wall as expected, but the AI failed shortly after that. With all of us on the second floor the zombies were unable to find their way up. Only after opening the hatches they were in the mood to come upstairs. Closing the hatch again would make them run around in circles again on the first floor, just like their A16 counterparts with a bit more jumping. Not only did they run in circles but it didn't take long for them to destroy the central column with their only legit way up to us.
The result was a totally safe night with us shooting down on them. It was a let down for my friend who was so eager to fight them, only to let the AI cheese itself. Are they really doing that much better then before? At least they seem to better navigate POIs.
I hope faatal can tweak it once he has the time for it, as of right now it wasn't the best experience.
Anyway, thanks for this game and the many hours of enjoyment nonetheless!
But i had to use this Poll for feedback :fat:
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Roland
Moderator
I’m glad this poll brought you out of lurking. The intended behavior is that zombies will path to your location if there exists a path and if there is no path they will go into a frenzy and start destroying blocks to try and collapse your perch.
They aren’t supposed to be running around in circles not destroying stuff.
I think the comments about tougher AI are mostly in regards to POI exploration because their better pathing puts a lot more pressure on players trying to loot a building.
They aren’t supposed to be running around in circles not destroying stuff.
I think the comments about tougher AI are mostly in regards to POI exploration because their better pathing puts a lot more pressure on players trying to loot a building.
lord_ahriman
Member
I don't think "pathing" in POI's is much of a problem, maybe number of zombies. 7.62/9mm guns will not give you enough crowd control all the time, so you can get outnumbered easily and die. New AI is a lot better, what's "wrong" (=needs balance and fixing) is the block damage and bonuses (because they always attack the same spot), nerfed hp (walls, maybe traps because it's completely useless against strongest zombies) and inneffective explosive weapons.
SaintPhillip
New member
So, no bandits then, huh?
DerValiser
New member
I'm curious if the fun pimps will follow their line and may show some balls of steel, or if they will change everthing back to dumb ai due to 80 votes. I will pause until 17.1 and decide then if I'm kicking it finally from my channel after 1300 hours lets plays and streams.
It's not a question of smart / dumb. You can explain everything with instinct, if they exactly know where you are. They may be dumb, but they now where you are. So finally everyone must be satisfied then.
It's not a question of smart / dumb. You can explain everything with instinct, if they exactly know where you are. They may be dumb, but they now where you are. So finally everyone must be satisfied then.
Anabella
New member
I think the whole problem with them right now making a beeline is how much damage they can do a base if they stack up and get that push effect. If we had a simple way to edit it, say a line in the xml so it could be turned off or better if it was an adjustable number. Heck some of the hardcore people would eat that up being able to make them do even more damage cause they are "crazy" like that.Didn't mean to offend or incite anyone. Its easy to make the AI more random or a traditional dumb zombie but its harder to make them smarter and more challenging which has been requested for at least 3 years. Most people want us to close the exploits. At the end of the day its a game and we want to make it fun and a game without challenge is a game that is no longer fun. We have and will continue to attempt to make the game scalable to a wide audience with game options to tweak the simulation. Even then its impossible to please everyone.
It's entirely possible in future builds we scale back the zombies and leave the smarter bits for the bandits but only after we get them really great challenge wise.
For the record zombies have been climbing ladders since like Alpha 1 and bee-lining too you on blood moons and nobody complained about this
Cheers Richard
