PC Smart vs Dumb Zombies?
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
As far as comparing BM A16 VS A17 I'd say it plays out like this;
(Assuming a standard A16 style 'fighting box' of 4 equal sides with walls to fight/shoot through.)
(Also assuming that players are not intentionally avoiding threat by using the various valid A16/A17 zombie farming methods. Ramps, overhangs, pit drops, turrets/advanced traps, etc. etc.)
A16
Blood moon starts, zombies spawn a distance away from the player in any of the possible 360 degree directions and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from all sides and zombies were 'dumb' enough to do the following;
A) Take a direct path through player created defenses. (barb wire, spikes, logs etc.)
B) Upon reaching a wall zombies would very often ignore player movement and continue to break blocks unless they were killed.
I believe that points A and B reinforce the feeling that player made defenses are worthwhile, defenses must exist on all approaches and the single mindedness of the zombies created a feeling of pressure as they're not smart enough to be baited or tricked by your active defense strategies once committed to breaking your walls.
A17
Blood moon starts, the zombies spawn a distance away from the player from one direction chosen at random and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from one direction and the zombies use their 'advanced' AI to do the following;
A) Take a direct path towards the player avoiding player crafted defenses either directly or by destroying them and creating a single path through them that all future zombies will take. (barb wire, spikes, logs etc.)
B) Upon reaching a wall zombies respond instantly to player movement to change their path and will very often, if not always, stop attacking walls in favor of moving towards the player's new location. Even when there isn't a direct path to the player.
I believe that points A and B causes the feeling that 99% of player made defenses have less worth and that player movement combined with an active defense base design supersede the value of bigger, stronger, better static defenses.
In the case of the square fighting cage example in A17 simply moving around the edge of your walls will cause zombies to stop attacking and chase you around the outside of the wall and thus "tank" or absorb more damage than they would by being upgraded to the higher HP materials. As is the nature of gamers I contend that these changes and the resulting experimentation that many of us did in trying to figure out how to build successful bases in A17 resulted in more dissatisfaction over time as the more successful design types were less immersive with zombies as the antagonists.
(Assuming a standard A16 style 'fighting box' of 4 equal sides with walls to fight/shoot through.)
(Also assuming that players are not intentionally avoiding threat by using the various valid A16/A17 zombie farming methods. Ramps, overhangs, pit drops, turrets/advanced traps, etc. etc.)
A16
Blood moon starts, zombies spawn a distance away from the player in any of the possible 360 degree directions and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from all sides and zombies were 'dumb' enough to do the following;
A) Take a direct path through player created defenses. (barb wire, spikes, logs etc.)
B) Upon reaching a wall zombies would very often ignore player movement and continue to break blocks unless they were killed.
I believe that points A and B reinforce the feeling that player made defenses are worthwhile, defenses must exist on all approaches and the single mindedness of the zombies created a feeling of pressure as they're not smart enough to be baited or tricked by your active defense strategies once committed to breaking your walls.
A17
Blood moon starts, the zombies spawn a distance away from the player from one direction chosen at random and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from one direction and the zombies use their 'advanced' AI to do the following;
A) Take a direct path towards the player avoiding player crafted defenses either directly or by destroying them and creating a single path through them that all future zombies will take. (barb wire, spikes, logs etc.)
B) Upon reaching a wall zombies respond instantly to player movement to change their path and will very often, if not always, stop attacking walls in favor of moving towards the player's new location. Even when there isn't a direct path to the player.
I believe that points A and B causes the feeling that 99% of player made defenses have less worth and that player movement combined with an active defense base design supersede the value of bigger, stronger, better static defenses.
In the case of the square fighting cage example in A17 simply moving around the edge of your walls will cause zombies to stop attacking and chase you around the outside of the wall and thus "tank" or absorb more damage than they would by being upgraded to the higher HP materials. As is the nature of gamers I contend that these changes and the resulting experimentation that many of us did in trying to figure out how to build successful bases in A17 resulted in more dissatisfaction over time as the more successful design types were less immersive with zombies as the antagonists.
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faatal
Fun Pimps Staff
What people need to understand is, zombies don't avoid traps because they are traps. They avoid them because they are obstacles. Spikes have to be climbed over because they have a height. That takes time, so they go around. Gazz has a simple way around that, but I'm not telling.
There are many tweaks and variations that will be coming for AI, but I still have bugs to get to first, like pathing not working with glass blocks or recently added vehicles not saving on server reset, which are now fixed. The AI ramp loop has been addressed, which has a variation now that makes it less predictable.
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faatal
Fun Pimps Staff
A16 zombies did not spawn in a 360. I think it was about a 90 degree angle with some other variation. A17 does pretty much the same thing, but path grid following may lead to more clustering than before. More varied attack angles is on my todo list and hopefully will be done next week.
HungryZombie
Scavenger
I'm curious to see what changes are made. I'm not so sure that zombies ALWAYS path around traps. For now you can make a small maze out of wood if you want and as long as on one end is and open path to you (no closed doors) the zombies will walk over barb wire and through blade traps to get you.
My next adventure is to dig under the path and put spikes in the ground and see if they walk over them. I'm just not up for breaking all the cement I'd have to bust through to get into the ground. Maybe once I have Steel I will.
HungryZombie
Scavenger
My base is a huge bunker with a slope leading from the ground to it's entrance. I notice the zombies walk down the slope hugging either wall. I can easily snipe them as they walk down. Keeping the ammo supplied is the harder part than killing the zombies sometimes.
I stand corrected Faatal. I try and be as accurate and concise as possible but subjective experiences and a sample size of 1 can lead to inaccuracies. I think having that increase in attack angles will do much to make the Blood Moon Horde more like a bunch of hungry zombies and less like a death star unit of Stormshield and Thunderhammer Terminators deep striking into your nether regions. Especially if the new height/ramp weighting and other tricks also address player movement inspired circling/kiting.
Sounds good but I am assuming by wave you mean each time new entities are summoned to replace those killed or despawned for whatever reasons. *Like players fleeing in terror...*
With the grid movement causing zeds to make L shaped paths towards people in certain situations the 180 sounds more prone to quick success but the 120 more nuanced and less gamey, provided they break up a bit and don't clump too much based on pathing. Of the two I wonder which would be more interesting and or fair for players fleeing the horde either on foot or vehicles. It would thematically be cool to run down zombies and have more in your way to avoid while fleeing your base or just trying to avoid the horde on vehicles, but I don't know if that could be pulled off without just ruining the run and gun fighting on foot.
Hopefully the distance and block health comparisons will help in two ways.
1) Make Zeds less likely to chase when they 'know' they're close to some juicy brains.
2) Make players appreciate higher hp blocks as Zeds will be less likely to get tunnel vision and stop chasing if they're hitting high HP blocks. (If I am following your meaning)
Hope you had a great holiday. Now get back on that wheel of coding pain! j/k :smile-new:
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My thought is why not have both types of Zombies. The ones that have been dead for a while use the old AI while the ones who are more recently deceased still may retain a little bit of valid grey matter that give them an edge. Or maybe different zombies follow different AI routines. Some fast, some slow, some climb, some dig, some go for doors, some ladders, some shortest distance between A and B. etc. etc.
Mix it up a bit.
Mix it up a bit.
JaxTeller718
Survivor
I voted current because I like scary zombies and nothing's scarier than running upstairs into a house and having a few zeds follow me in.
The 16 zombies were infuriatingly dumb and illogical. They ran in circles and often wouldn't even go after me if i ran in circles enough.
I don't build ramp bases or cheese bases so none of the tactics people impose on themselves bother me. They are often NOT predictable to me at least. And I like it like that. The zombies are probably my most favorite aspect of 17.
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The 16 zombies were infuriatingly dumb and illogical. They ran in circles and often wouldn't even go after me if i ran in circles enough.
I don't build ramp bases or cheese bases so none of the tactics people impose on themselves bother me. They are often NOT predictable to me at least. And I like it like that. The zombies are probably my most favorite aspect of 17.
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Is it ok if I read this in John Madden's voice? I love John Madden
John Madden is a gift to Football and comedy. So many happy times regardless of how the teams were doing...
"Well, when you're playing good football, it's good football and if you don't have good football, then you're not really playing good football."
John Madden
Src: https://www.azquotes.com/author/9268-John_Madden
TargetPractice
Refugee
I can't pick either because I like for the Z's to have variant behaviors. Meaning that some Z's are "smarter" or have more functioning basic hunting instincts than others. Ideally, all Z's would have a variety of behaviors they could engage in, with certain types of Z's "weighted" towards one or more. For example, a wight would "prefer" to charge straight at me by the most direct and fastest route, breaking through minor obstacles, doors, even walls to get to me. But a wight could also "run with the pack" - join any other Z's nearby and hang with them, or occasionally take a "smart route". The hawaiian shirt Z might "prefer" to take a "smart route" - easiest/least hp route to get to my meaty bits, but occasionally charge straight in or run with the pack. Ms. blue-shirt-missing-part-of-skull might "prefer" to run with the pack, but will occasionally "lose focus and wander". Soldier Z's might "chain aggro" nearby Z's, causing them to be more likely to "run with the pack" - with the Soldier Z as the pack leader. But they will occasionally go AWOL - "lose focus and wander". The infected survivor might prefer to "run with the pack", but will stop and attack anything that injures him - with the player injuring him causing him to switch to charge straight at me until something else injures him. Give them variable times to chase the player before they "recheck" their behavior and you potentially have Z's that give up, beat on the nearest block a couple of times in frustration, then go join another Z for a while. While others continue the chase.
All of that keeps the Z's fresh and interesting, since players will take along time to figure out what behavior a Z is likely to engage in (without checking the xml files - make this configurable). The random factor will keep me guessing. It also makes the Z's more dangerous in crowds, since I can't rely on them ALL following a consistent behavior pattern. That's the problem with both A16 and A17 style Z's - they're ALL easily predictable.
So I guess the poll is missing an option for me - a mix of both, with extra behaviors thrown in.
All of that keeps the Z's fresh and interesting, since players will take along time to figure out what behavior a Z is likely to engage in (without checking the xml files - make this configurable). The random factor will keep me guessing. It also makes the Z's more dangerous in crowds, since I can't rely on them ALL following a consistent behavior pattern. That's the problem with both A16 and A17 style Z's - they're ALL easily predictable.
So I guess the poll is missing an option for me - a mix of both, with extra behaviors thrown in.
SnakeWildlife
Refugee
I'm heavily for the A16 AI, A17 totally kills the game for me to the point i dont want to play.
What i would like to see is:
In A17 style:
-Keep the A17 AI code for the future-planned Humans.
In A16 style:
-A16 Hordes with direction of attack being from all 360'
-More zombies on Horde nights. (dumb AI means more zeds using less cpu time)
-Even more zombies on Horde nights. (we dont use Gore blocks or loot zombies anymore, so less cpu/lag even still, plus we have more types of traps to use in our arsenal)
-Significant increase to wandering zombies (seriously theres nothing out there, we can walk around at night knowing we're totally safe, on busy servers you may not even see ANY wandering zombies at all)
-A return of the random wandering hordes
Tweaks to Zombies themselves:
-Loot bags need to persist for longer or loot needs to be dished out to us in a different way. On horde nights the loot bags disappear before we can get to most of them, and if we run out to collect them, its usually suicide. On our last 7 day horde, over 80% of the loot bags, were unobtainable.
-POI Sleeper zombies need to spawn corresponding to the AGE of the player, not the amount of days that have gone by in the server. New players on servers which are over 100 days find they just keep getting instantly screwed by the glowing ferals which spawn and shred any new player over and over before they are able to level up and be actually able to deal with them.
On a side note:
-Please lower intelligence required for Forge to 2, default 4 is too high.
Currently, it feels like im playing a zombie game, that doesnt have zombies..morelike, supermutants with superpowers and gps, and barely any zombies spawn at all.
What i would like to see is:
In A17 style:
-Keep the A17 AI code for the future-planned Humans.
In A16 style:
-A16 Hordes with direction of attack being from all 360'
-More zombies on Horde nights. (dumb AI means more zeds using less cpu time)
-Even more zombies on Horde nights. (we dont use Gore blocks or loot zombies anymore, so less cpu/lag even still, plus we have more types of traps to use in our arsenal)
-Significant increase to wandering zombies (seriously theres nothing out there, we can walk around at night knowing we're totally safe, on busy servers you may not even see ANY wandering zombies at all)
-A return of the random wandering hordes
Tweaks to Zombies themselves:
-Loot bags need to persist for longer or loot needs to be dished out to us in a different way. On horde nights the loot bags disappear before we can get to most of them, and if we run out to collect them, its usually suicide. On our last 7 day horde, over 80% of the loot bags, were unobtainable.
-POI Sleeper zombies need to spawn corresponding to the AGE of the player, not the amount of days that have gone by in the server. New players on servers which are over 100 days find they just keep getting instantly screwed by the glowing ferals which spawn and shred any new player over and over before they are able to level up and be actually able to deal with them.
On a side note:
-Please lower intelligence required for Forge to 2, default 4 is too high.
Currently, it feels like im playing a zombie game, that doesnt have zombies..morelike, supermutants with superpowers and gps, and barely any zombies spawn at all.
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This poll is missing an option "I want world peace and the neighbor's dog to shut up". Please add this or I can't really vote.
The Fun Pimp
Refugee
Not sure why a poll was needed for a self evident thing like this. A16 lacked challenge, zombies spun in circles stuck on small world details, you could avoid zombies on a the smallest safe place 2-3 meters up, you could cheese the game digging underground. If the game is too difficult you can always turn down the difficulty a lot of ways never run, novice difficulty.
If we can't get zombie AI good we can't do human bandit enemies so the debate is really moot.
Cheers Richard
If we can't get zombie AI good we can't do human bandit enemies so the debate is really moot.
Cheers Richard
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crazywildfire
Refugee
Thanks Richard for the explanation. I just woke up so not fully awake but am I missing something or did you mean to say A16 and not A17? Maybe I'm miss reading it will look again in a few.
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With all due respect Richard, it's not that the new zombie AI is too difficult; plenty of people have demonstrated ways to cheese this AI just as badly as that of A16. The problem is their behavior in itself. Zombies should not be master structural engineers, piling onto a single weak spot in your base in a completely robotic fashion. They should not avoid traps. This AI makes base building extremely boring and wipes out any element of creativity in base design. While I'm sure I could load up on guns and endlessly plink into a conga line of jackhammer-wielding robots it is *boring*. It's unintuitive. It's unbelievable. Please remember that these are zombies and should behave like zombies.
Roland
Community Moderator
With all due respect, if you read what he posted you will see that he is saying that they are getting ready for bandits with the AI improvements. It is easy to restrict smart AI and make entities behave stupidly but it is impossible to enhance dumb AI to make entities behave intelligently. The A16 code could not have handled bandits but the A17 code will be able to handle bandits and zombies.