Slight ranged rework

M

MiTHMoN

Refugee
I've already recently done a thread for melee, and then armour, so might as well weigh-in on the current firearm situation and how I'd shuffle it around without changing the current vibe too much.

Currently, we've got a few tier guns.
Pipe (t0?): Pistol (9mm), Shotgun (any?), Machinegun (7.62), Rifle (7.62).
Iron? (t1?): Pistol (9mm), Double-barrel shotgun (any?), Ak47 (7.62), Hunting Rifle (7.62).
T2?: Magnum revolver (.44), Pump shotgun (any?), Tac (7.62), Lever-action rifle (7.62).
T3?: SMG (9mm), Desert Vulture (.44), Auto shotgun (any?), M60 (7.62), Sniper (7.62).

Currently the situation we have with ammo is, the "basic" ammo drops, then the next type replaces it in loot, and for most guns the advanced ammo replaced that in loot. So you'll find Buckshot, basic 9mm, basic 7.62, maybe basic .44. Then it'll be AP Slugs, red-tip (hollow-point/hi-power) 9mm, red-tip 7.62, red-tip .44. Then it'll be black-tip 9mm ("AP", aka armour-piercing), black-tip 7.62, black-tip .44. I don't think breaching slugs are treated the same way, because I'm flooded with black-tip ammo and never see any breaching slugs in loot.

I'll also add that, for bows and crossbows, we have:
Primitive Bow,
Wooden Bow / Iron Crossbow,
Compound Bow / Compound Crossbow.
And they use:
Stone arrows / stone bolts,
Iron arrows / iron bolts,
Steel arrows / steel bolts,
Explosive arrows / explosive bolts.
They both also have flaming arrows / flaming bolts, which don't fit into the ammo progression (I think they're around iron arrow/bolt level in damage? not sure).

So we've currently got, by my count, 17 guns and 5 "bows", with 12 firearm ammo types and 10 archery ammo types.


The current issues I see with this setup come down to 2 main categories:
1) ammo types
2) overlapping weapon categories

Firstly, 7DTD has a big issue with firearm overlap. The pistol skill is also the submachinegun skill, and uses the same ammo. The rifle and machinegun skills are separate, but use the same exact ammo. And .44 is a whole subcategory of pistols and has their own dedicated ammo.

So, how would I re-divide things:

1. Arrows (bows) and bolts (crossbows) should be the same item. No, I don't care about immersion in that, just make them the same thing.
Stone arrows & bolts, iron arrows & bolts, steel arrows & bolts, explosive arrows & bolts.
That cuts 10 ammo types down to 4. Flaming arrows and flaming bolts were never useful for anything anyway.

2. Add in .32 ACP as an ammo type.

3. Add in .40 ACP as an ammo type.

4. Add in 5.56 NATO as an ammo type.


Currently, when given the choice for pipe bundles, the pipe machinegun is just the strongest by a fair margin. So I'd like to start by addressing that by adjusting the ammo tiers, and of course making the pipe machinegun use 5.56.

New lowest-tier ammo types:
.32 (most common)
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Stone arrows & bolts
.44 basic

Mid-tier ammo:
Buckshot
9mm
7.62 basic
Iron arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 basic

High-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Steel arrows & bolts
5.56 basic
.44 AP

End-tier ammo:
AP Slugs
Breaching Slugs
.40
7.62 AP
Explosive arrows & bolts
5.56 AP
.44 AP

This gives us the ammo line-up of:
.32 ACP, an early-game ammo used for 2 pistols and 1 SMG.
Buckshot, early-mid game shotgun ammo.
9mm, mid-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 (basic), early-mid ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 (basic), ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Stone arrows & bolts, early-game bow & crossbow ammo.
5.56 (basic), mid-game ammo used for machineguns (assault rifles).
Iron arrows & bolts, mid-game bow & crossbow ammo.
AP Slugs, mid-late game shotgun ammo.
.40, end-game ammo used for 1 pistol and 1 SMG.
7.62 AP, mid-late ammo used exclusively for rifles.
.44 AP, mid-late ammo used for 1 rifle and 2 pistols.
Steel arrows & bolts, mid-late-game bow & crossbow ammo.
Edit: Breaching Slugs, end-game shotgun ammo for breaking doors and chests.
5.56 AP, end-game machinegun (assault rifle) ammo.
Explosive arrows & bolts, end-game bow & crossbow ammo.

That's 11 firearm ammo types, down from the current 12.
Edit: It's 12 firearm ammo types, same as it is currently.

The weapons... Starting with T0 "pipe tier"/"stone tier":

Pipe Pistol (.32).
Pipe Rifle (7.62).
Pipe Shotgun (any shotgun ammo).
Pipe submachinegun (9mm).
Pipe machinegun (5.56).
Pipe Baton (I guess I'll include this here, just because it's in the pipe bundle).
Primitive bow.

The idea here is to give players a meaningful choice. If they choose the pipe pistol, which uses .32, they're more likely to have access to .32 ammo from early loot, quest rewards, and perhaps to purchase from the trader. It's a weaker, but more sustainable option, than pipe submachinegun or pipe machinegun.

Whereas the pipe submachinegun and pipe machinegun use ammo that might be more difficult to obtain early, but they made for better "panic weapons" (if a zombie dog catches you by surprise). And if you do get the ammo to feed them, they're stronger weapons for their tier.

Pipe rifle and pipe shotgun, on the other hand, use ammo that their class of guns uses the whole game long. So you're more likely to get a slow and steady trickle of that ammo, and instead you're limited by the pipe gun's magazine capacity of 1, and slow reload.

Tier-1:

Compact Pistol (.32). This makes the most sense to me as a "purse pistol", or even a "toilet pistol". It's an upgrade over the pipe pistol, and uses early-game ammo.
Hunting Rifle (7.62, same as it currently is).
Double-barrel shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
(no submachinegun or machineguns in this tier, to balance their power)
Wooden Bow, Iron Crossbow.

Tier-2:

Pistol (9mm). Same as the current Pistol, but maybe stronger.
Lever-Action Rifle (.44). Allows rifle-users to start using two ammo types, 7.62 and .44.
Compact SMG (.32). This gives players a method of spending the .32 ammo they're getting, while also letting them have the pipe submachinegun to spend their 9mm ammo.
AK (5.56). Same as the current AK-47, but using 5.56 instead of 7.62.
Compound Bow, Compound Crossbow.

Tier-2.5:

Revolver (.44). Same as the current .44 magnum revolver.
Pump Shotgun (any shotgun ammo, same as it currently is).
Police SMG (9mm). Weaker version of the current SMG-5.
Tactical Assault Rifle (5.56). Same as the current Tac. Don't think it deserves to be a full tier higher than the AK.

Tier-3:

Advanced Pistol (.40). Basically a better version of the Pistol to compete with other end-game guns.
Desert Vulture (.44). Same as the current Desert Vulture.
Sniper (7.62). Same as the current Sniper.
Auto Shotgun (any shotgun ammo). Same as the current auto shotty.
Advanced SMG (.40). Same as the current SMG-5, except uses .40 instead of 9mm.
M249 (5.56). Same as the M60, except uses 5.56 instead of 7.62.


Then we'd split the Pistol and SMG skills in Agility (similar to how Club and Sledge have separate perks).

Overall, that's 15 16 ammo types compared to the current 22.
And that's 27 ranged weapons, compared to the current 22 or 23.

I think it'd bring more variety to the gameplay, more smooth progression, and more cohesion to the current ranged weapon lineup.

EDIT: I forgot to include Breaching Slugs.
 
Last edited:
MiTHMoN said:
1. Arrows (bows) and bolts (crossbows) should be the same item. No, I don't care about immersion in that, just make them the same thing.
Stone arrows & bolts, iron arrows & bolts, steel arrows & bolts, explosive arrows & bolts.
That cuts 10 ammo types down to 4. Flaming arrows and flaming bolts were never useful for anything anyway.
Click to expand...
This is a hard no, as far as I'm concerned. Arrows and bolts are very, very different beasts, and can not be used even close to interchangeably.

It's not really about immersion, but as someone who is an archer irl, it's just...wrong.
 
At this point, i'd rather have the ability to change the color of the iron sight crosshairs for bows and guns (not the scope) to a brighter color I can see. It blends in too much with the environment in the forest biome, I have to aim at the sky to see the crosshairs and then line it up with my target almost every time. The only time it doesn't blend in, is at night time.
 
Vaeliorin said:
This is a hard no, as far as I'm concerned. Arrows and bolts are very, very different beasts, and can not be used even close to interchangeably.

It's not really about immersion, but as someone who is an archer irl, it's just...wrong.
Click to expand...
When I loot a container and it has stone arrows or stone bolts, I don't get to decide the specifications of that ammo. Whoever made that ammo made it however they did.

And have you actually watched the reload animation of the crossbow? Casually pulls the string back with no leverage, not even pulling directly back. Watch the animation.

The game never treated the crossbow with realism, so why do players have to suffer when they loot arrows and need bolts, or loot bolts and need arrows?
 
Ok, if it's that important to some players, maybe I'd suggest making it an optional setting.

I certainly don't want 10 ammo types for bows and crossbows that I have to decide what to do with. Do I hoard them in storage chests and never use them? Do I try to sell them? Do I just drop them? Because unless I'm specifically doing a sneak-archery playthrough, I do not touch archery passed the primitive bow, because firearms exist.

The way it currently is, is there are 16 ammo types (9mm, .44, arrows, bolts) dedicated solely to the Agility tree.
Meanwhile there's 3 ammo types spread between Perception and Fortitude, and 3 in Strength.
Yes, of the 22 ammo types, 16 of them are in Agility.

And yeah it's kind of annoying to craft 150 stone arrows, then loot an iron crossbow and having no ammo for the crossbow. There is no way to start with a crossbow, but you start with a bow by following the tutorial. And there's no way to know when you'll loot your first crossbow.

Maybe I should also suggest they add a Pipe Crossbow to the game. Yeah, I'll edit my post.
Post automatically merged:

Well, there's no button to edit the post anymore. So I guess I'll just write it here.

The Pipe Bundle should include a Pipe Crossbow, which I'm suggesting as a tier-0 alternative to the Primitive Bow.
That puts the weapon count up to 28 ranged weapons (and I'm not including turrets or the nailgun).
 
MiTHMoN said:
When I loot a container and it has stone arrows or stone bolts, I don't get to decide the specifications of that ammo. Whoever made that ammo made it however they did.

And have you actually watched the reload animation of the crossbow? Casually pulls the string back with no leverage, not even pulling directly back. Watch the animation.

The game never treated the crossbow with realism, so why do players have to suffer when they loot arrows and need bolts, or loot bolts and need arrows?
Click to expand...
Yes, if you don't want them just scrap them. It's not hard to make bolts or arrows. And yes, the reload isn't particularly accurate.

Still, I don't see how it's any different than me looting shotgun shells or 7.62 when I'm not going to use them.

That said, I would advocate for there being a tier 0 crossbow.
 
MiTHMoN said:
Ok, if it's that important to some players, maybe I'd suggest making it an optional setting.

I certainly don't want 10 ammo types for bows and crossbows that I have to decide what to do with. Do I hoard them in storage chests and never use them? Do I try to sell them? Do I just drop them? Because unless I'm specifically doing a sneak-archery playthrough, I do not touch archery passed the primitive bow, because firearms exist.
Click to expand...
As mentioned, that's a silly way to look at it. Also odd that you want to combine arrows and bolts into one item but yet you are proposing adding even more ballistic ammo types. You are complaining about having to sort different ammo types for bows, but why just them? What if you are perked into shotguns but keep looting rifle ammo? Is that a problem too? Just an odd thing to get hung up on. Why add more ballistic ammo types then? Why not just make them "bullets" and they work in all guns?
 
bdubyah said:
As mentioned, that's a silly way to look at it. Also odd that you want to combine arrows and bolts into one item but yet you are proposing adding even more ballistic ammo types. You are complaining about having to sort different ammo types for bows, but why just them? What if you are perked into shotguns but keep looting rifle ammo? Is that a problem too? Just an odd thing to get hung up on. Why add more ballistic ammo types then? Why not just make them "bullets" and they work in all guns?
Click to expand...
If someone chooses to play as an archer, they go into Agility, and are free to switch between Bow and Crossbow, as they share basically all perks in common. You are not penalized for switching between them. It actually allows you to use both ammo types for the bow and the crossbow if you put one of each in your hotbar.

So with 1 skill, you are given access to 5 weapons and 10 ammo types.

Compare that to others, where it's normal for 4 weapons and 3 ammo types to be tied to 1 ranged weapon skill. (Rifle, Shotgun, Machinegun)

The pistol skill, which is also in Agility right next to archery (Bow/Crossbow) skill, has 5 guns (Pipe Pistol, Pistol, SMG-5, Magnum revolver, Desert Vulture), and 6 ammo types.

Part of my post is about separating pistols from submachineguns, to distinguish them by having separate skills and tier progressions. Give the player fun choices.

But that still leaves Archery to be fixed. 10 ammo types for 1 skill is bad.

With my proposed soft-rework, we've got:
5 (.32, 9mm, .40, .44 (basic), .44 AP) for pistols
3 (.32, 9mm, .40) for submachineguns
2 (5.56 (basic), 5.56 AP) for machineguns
4 (7.62 (basic), 7.62 AP, .44 (basic), .44 AP) for rifles
3 (buckshot, AP slugs, breaching slugs) for shotguns
and...
either 4 (stone, iron, steel, explosive)
or 8 (stone arrow, stone bolt, iron arrow, iron bolt, steel arrow, steel bolt, explosive arrow, explosive bolt)
for bow & crossbow.

It just doesn't seem right, from a quality-of-life and loot balance perspective, to have 12 ammo types across 5 firearm categories, but then have 8 ammo types across 1 archery category. Just look at the numbers... Aside from archery, the highest exclusive ammo type count is 3 on the shotgun. 4 types for archery would be fine, it'd be high but it'd be fine, but 8?

It's seemingly so easy for you people to say "I don't like that, because I don't like it", but I haven't heard a single alternative from any of you.

bdubyah said:
Why add more ballistic ammo types then? Why not just make them "bullets" and they work in all guns?
Click to expand...
Javabean867 said:
too many ammo types. unless we have like 30 more inventory slots lol
Click to expand...
If you two actually read the post your commenting on, you'd notice that I'm not "adding more", there's still 12 ballistic ammo types in my proposed soft-rework, same as the number of ammo types in the game currently.

Vaeliorin said:
Yes, if you don't want them just scrap them. It's not hard to make bolts or arrows. And yes, the reload isn't particularly accurate.

Still, I don't see how it's any different than me looting shotgun shells or 7.62 when I'm not going to use them.

That said, I would advocate for there being a tier 0 crossbow.
Click to expand...
The difference is, it's 12 ballistic ammo types across all firearms, compared to (currently) 10 archery ammo types across 1 archery skill. Currently there's 5 ranged skills (excluding explosives and turrets), and my proposal further separates that into 6 ranged skills.

Currently that's an average of (22/5=) 4.4 ammo types per ranged weapon skill, but if you ignore archery it's only (12/4=) 3 ammo types per ranged weapon category, with archery having a massive 10 by itself.

I don't know how else I can put this into words.
Ten ammo types.
For just one skill.
Compared to twelve ammo types.
For all firearms combined.

I have not heard a single alternative from any of you.
 
You also haven't explained why that's actually a problem. It's fairly rare to find arrows/bolts in loot, so complaining about them pushing out other ammo types is not really a good justification.
 
MiTHMoN said:
If you two actually read the post your commenting on, you'd notice that I'm not "adding more", there's still 12 ballistic ammo types in my proposed soft-rework, same as the number of ammo types in the game currently.
Click to expand...
I mean sure when counting out both ammo systems, your's still has more, because you need to break apart bolt and arrows into their own ammo types. Your system also seems to limit ammo types to 1 or 2 weapons, meaning that lower tier ammos become useless. whereas the current system has each ammo type being useful from beginning to end game.

Personally it sounds like a mod you should make.
 
MiTHMoN said:
I have not heard a single alternative from any of you.
Click to expand...
Gotta go with Vaeliorin on this, you haven't really made a good case for changing anything. My alternative: the way it is currently. I don't see your idea as an improvement. Who cares that some ranged skills have more ammos tied to it or not? I couldn't care less that archery has that many ammo types associated with it. Not sure why you see that as an issue that needs to be addressed. As mentioned above, it sounds like something for a mod.
 
MiTHMoN said:
What?
Click to expand...
It's simple math my dude.

You have 23 ammo types. and you forgot about fire bolts and fire arrows. So that brings it to 25.

Like is your goal to simplify the ammo system? or make it more complex? By adding a bunch of new ammo types and having some only be used for early game does not simplify that. And if you are going for realism, then you can't just willy-nilly combine bolts and arrows into the same ammo type.

The current system has 3 types of 9mm, 3 types of .44, 3 types of shotgun ammo, 3 types of 7.62, 5 arrow types and 5 bolt types. 22 ammo types, and not 1 of them becomes useless at any point in the game. you can hunt with stone arrows and bolt at any point. all of the ammo is useful in some way.
 
Javabean867 said:
It's simple math my dude.

You have 23 ammo types. and you forgot about fire bolts and fire arrows. So that brings it to 25.
Click to expand...
How are you getting those numbers? I'm not following. I've got 16 ammo types in my post.

Did you read the post you're replying to...?

Javabean867 said:
Like is your goal to simplify the ammo system? or make it more complex?
Click to expand...
To make it generally better. More variety, more clear options, less clutter, less overlap.

Javabean867 said:
By adding a bunch of new ammo types and having some only be used for early game does not simplify that.
Click to expand...
...? Compared to the current system, stone arrows, stone bolts, 9mm, .44, 7.62, buckshot, 9mm red-tip, .44 red-tip, 7.62 red-tip, iron arrows, iron bolts, flaming arrows, flaming bolts... These ammos all get left unused.

So I don't understand why you think my suggested soft-rework adds this as a complication. It doesn't.

There is nothing stopping players from just not using all of the black-tip AP ammo they get... But it'll pile up, and up. Even still, they can choose to use the basic (brass-tip?) ammo.

And with my suggested system, .32 and 9mm would have specific guns they work in. So even if you unlock a gun that uses .40 s&w, you can still use the 9mm out of a different gun. So if you carried 2 guns, that's 2 ammo types you're using. (For example, 2 pistols, or 2 SMGs)

In the current system, if you carried 2 pistols or 2 SMGs, you wouldn't be using 2 ammo types... You'd just use the same ammo type in both, because there's no reason not to.

Javabean867 said:
And if you are going for realism, then you can't just willy-nilly combine bolts and arrows into the same ammo type.
Click to expand...
What is realistic about this game to you? It's a game where zombies appear magically out of vents and ceilings, materialize rocks from nothing to throw at you, endlessly spawn swarms of bees that specifically hate you, etc. This is not a realistic game.

Javabean867 said:
22 ammo types, and not 1 of them becomes useless at any point in the game. you can hunt with stone arrows and bolt at any point. all of the ammo is useful in some way.
Click to expand...
...? Do you have a point, at all?
What has this got to do with my post?
With my proposed soft-rework, none of the ammo types "become useless at any point in the game" either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top