PC Sleeper volumes, What did they bring?

[Ghostlight]

And what is a potato for you? I have a Core i5 7500 with 32 GB RAM and a GTX 1060 6GB. This allows me to play most games at high settings. Is that already a potato for you?

Nope don't think so. That should run A18 with ease and be able to massively crank up the zeds. My GPU is better (GTX 980Ti) but I only have 16MB RAM. I have everything maxed pretty much except reflections (off) and shadow reflections (off). Solid 60 fps no matter the zombie count. However I do have an nVME SSD which made a huge difference to running this game.

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But better textures shouldn't have to come at the expense of lesser zombies :/

Absolutely. I think if given that choice, all of us would pick lesser textures and more zombies. Yes?

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A17 had upwards of 40 zombies inside a 3 story, fancy single family home. the tiny little 1 story cabins often had 12 zombies or so. You'd walk into a hallway and look up to see ductwork running along both sides of the hallway up near the ceiling with 7 zombies standing 8 feet in the air on unaccessible vents.
it made no sense.

But it was FUN. Though I agree with others, it was much better when they flocked in from outside or from neighbouring buildings. Much less predictable.

 

[Guest]

On the contrary, because sleepers are so predictable stealth is actually overpowered. Once you spec up in it you can one-shot basically any sleeper before they wake up and loot with impunity since you can avoid the ones you don't want to fight and kill the ones who are in the way instantly without waking the rest. This is a favorite tactic of people who play on the highest difficulties.

Yeah I know how it works. I mostly play at warrior (I don't enjoy late stage bullet sponges), so your mileage may vary indeed, but stealth is just not worth it there. I want to kill all the zombies for the XP anyways and sneaking around is just too slow compared to running & smacking. Once I'm decently perked up, I can one shot most zombies in a room in a matter of seconds with a baseball bat to the head. Some ferals and irradiated zombies require an extra tap to get them prone first, but that hardly makes a difference. If I'm willing to spend ammo, it can be done even faster with a decent AK/MG, shotgun or even a kitted out pistol with enough crit %. Once a sleeper volume is down, you can make as much noise as you want while looting, provided you don't move into the next volume by accident.

Maybe things change significantly on insane difficulty, but I wouldn't be surprised if run & gun/smack was still a faster and more optimal loot strategy than sneaking around all the time. Remember that time is an important resource in 7DtD.

Anyhow, it doesn't change much about my opinion of the sleeper system.

 

[ginc]

IMO sleepers are a big improvement over zeds that randomly appear out of thin air one at a time. They provide some actual resistance inside POIs, whereas in earlier alphas you just busted a hole in POIs, looted the good stuff, and left before any outside zeds got in. Wandering hordes or even small packs have always been relatively infrequent.

The big issue is that *active* zeds have become more costly over the last few major updates due to graphical and AI improvements, and the game's design space (in terms of zed encounters) is limited by this. TFP have increased the threat level of individual zeds with ferals, radiateds and the new Demolishers, because they can't increase the number of zeds. I hope optimizations are coming down the pipe, because its taking the "horde" out of "survival horde crafting game". This is really my main beef with the game, I'm happy with just about everything else.

Personally I would love it if the sleepers were supplemented by more frequent small packs of zeds (3-6), with frequency determined by how built-up the area is. If the player is out in the open when the pack spawns then have them do the usual wandering behavior, but if a player is inside a POI then send the pack to break into the POI (not directly at the player until alerted though). And every so often you could get a big horde instead of a small one.

 

[JaxTeller718]

But these performance improvements were used to add for example higher resolution textures.

Excuses

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133647-Hey-everyone-that-says-there-s-less-zombies-try-this&p=1058908&viewfull=1#post1058908

if i can do that then surely they can do 10-20 more.

We already know MM was mad he got cornered in a poi several times from wanderers outside. He has said it and as a matter of fact when he posted about it he said he was reducing them because it wasn't fun.

 

[JaxTeller718]

The big issue is that *active* zeds have become more costly over the last few major updates due to graphical and AI improvements, and the game's design space (in terms of zed encounters) is limited by this. TFP have increased the threat level of individual zeds with ferals, radiateds and the new Demolishers, because they can't increase the number of zeds.

Again untrue and if we are talking about adding even 5 more zeds to the wild the performance difference is negligible. I wish people would do some critical thinking for them selves and run tests instead of just accepting the explanations.

 

[RipClaw]

if i can do that then surely they can do 10-20 more.

10-20 is not much if you don't see most of them because they spawn somewhere behind a POI. They have to come straight to the player to give him the impression that there are a lot of them. That is what this encounter system should ensure if I have understood it correctly.

 

[JaxTeller718]

The aforementioned "1 HP inactive sleepers" were a thing, though, or am I just losing my mind here? You'd walk up to them and poke them with a stone axe and they'd die. Not a True Scotsm- err, a Real Decoy, but pretty close in my book..?

They were indeed a thing, not sure why anyone is saying they werent

From the XML

	<group name="S_-Group_Generic_Zombie" emptyChance="0" decoyChance="0" decoy1hpChance="0">
	<spawner name="SleeperGSList" count="5,6"/>
</group>

Thats from A18. Id have to pull put 16 xmls to see if those were set to a chance to spawn. But they are indeed very real and can be readded back now

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10-20 is not much if you don't see most of them because they spawn somewhere behind a POI. They have to come straight to the player to give him the impression that there are a lot of them. That is what this encounter system should ensure if I have understood it correctly.

We are in agreement there. We can probably have a whole new discussion in the flaws of the current spawning system for sure and Im looking forward to events as well. I was only pointing out that it is possible to have them spawn and not crush systems. Whether we see them all is a different thing Half of those actually wandered AWAY from me lol

 

[Roland]

Excuses
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133647-Hey-everyone-that-says-there-s-less-zombies-try-this&p=1058908&viewfull=1#post1058908

if i can do that then surely they can do 10-20 more.

We already know MM was mad he got cornered in a poi several times from wanderers outside. He has said it and as a matter of fact when he posted about it he said he was reducing them because it wasn't fun.

I bet the people who goaded him for being a developer that doesn't play his own game are kicking themselves now....

 

[bigstep70]

I'm gonna test a mod I found yesterday that increases the radius sleepers have around them to have a chance to wake up (only 3m apparently to the mod) and change that up to 150 radius, Have no idea if that means sleepers nextdoors would spawn and have a chance to wake up.if that will work, then being silent and having silencer might be something to consider again.

If that's how it works, then maybe we can get to shoot zombies in the house nextdoor via windows and openings again! \o/

then we can shoot zombies in the house nextdoor via windows and openings... YES PLEASE!!

 

[-Holo-]

Just some clarification.
1. No there were never any decoys. There is a gore block that looks kinda like a sitting sleeper though.

2. Sleepers have been in the game for FAR longer than since a16. It's been a core component for most of the client versions. The behavior was just different. Changes have largely been made to increase optimization, and to prevent cheezing the game mechanics. I mean back in a14 you could just make some noise in the street and all the zeds in the POI would bash down the walls and get out. Making it stupid easy for you to clear a POI before looting.

.

1. I'm still 99% sure there were decoys in A17 who had 1 HP.

2. I'd like to point out that when the zombies bursted out of the nearby houses, it made for a struggle to survive the fast growing horde of zombies. (Atleast early on, but now we are armed to the teeth from day 2) And that the POI's were for the most part a normal house,

not a loot-villa filled with secrets and loots.

 

[DeadGerry]

Excuses
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133647-Hey-everyone-that-says-there-s-less-zombies-try-this&p=1058908&viewfull=1#post1058908

if i can do that then surely they can do 10-20 more.

We already know MM was mad he got cornered in a poi several times from wanderers outside. He has said it and as a matter of fact when he posted about it he said he was reducing them because it wasn't fun.

Did you try having that number in and around POI's? Just curious as to how complete your testing was - the spawn numbers would need to be sustainable and tested in each biome, in POIs, Player built structures , towns as well as on a road; and would need to be tested across various graphic settings and PC set ups for consistent and reliable results.

I'd be keen to hear fuller data on where else you tested this - but it also seems like people who's systems can cope with this have a solution; if they wish to implement it - and the devs clearly have an alternative system which they are focussing on creating at the moment - I would question whether it would be sensible use of their time to continue to develop a system for having more random spawns if the whole random system is about to replaced by a new one.

There were decoys - I've only ever played vanilla and I remember them well.

 

[Ghostlight]

Did you try having that number in and around POI's? Just curious as to how complete your testing was - the spawn numbers would need to be sustainable and tested in each biome, in POIs, Player built structures , towns as well as on a road; and would need to be tested across various graphic settings and PC set ups for consistent and reliable results.

Yeah that's nice.

Here's what I know...

The utter lack of zombies in each biome, in POIs, Player built structures , towns as well as on a road; and across every possible graphic settings and every possible PC set up makes this game BORING as hell outside horde night.

 

[-Holo-]

Yeah that's nice.
Here's what I know...

The utter lack of zombies in each biome, in POIs, Player built structures , towns as well as on a road; and across every possible graphic settings and every possible PC set up makes this game BORING as hell outside horde night.

Yeah, it's quite silly low amount of zombies out. Was driving though a city in A18.1 in the middle of the night, checked the console and there was 2 zombies loaded.

I modded it up to x8 (or 10?) amount of z' spawning in cities, and x3 spawning in the forest, was much more fun and lively (even though thats probably since the game loads every spawn on the first day), there were around 40 zombies at any given time in a city street, at day. Looting a POI could get dangerous fast if they got wind of you. (also had a mod to increase sight and hearing of the zombies alot)

 

[hotpoon]

That's weird, since A15 and A16 managed tons of zombies in cities with no effort. And for the short time I tried modding in more zombies in A18 (a LOT more with maxAlive set to 64) it ran absolutely fine. So are we all suffering because a few players a running on potatoes?

I also wonder about that performance angle we keep hearing. My pc isn't that great (though I have a crapton of ram) and it ran just fine with the much higher volume of A13 - 15s zombies.

A16's sleepers sounded good on paper because at the time we were complaining about how zombies would spawn practically on top of us in A15, but once implemented, I felt their wake radius was too narrow.

A17 was horrendous with all of them jam packed into cupboards, ceilings and crawl spaces.

A18 is better in that not so many indoors as A17, but the wake radius is still as bad as A16.

If I had it my way, I'd make them wake up just as we get into render range. That way the world would seem more alive and wouldn't allow us to pick them off so easily.

 

[beHypE]

As with most issues in the game, it's really a compound problem.

The lack of zombies in the streets makes it so that a city is just a concentration of independant POIs, basically a free loot fest. Add in the fact that zombies only get triggered once you're in the same room as them, and it really feels like an easy "go in a room, kill 2 sleepers, loot, repeat". On top of that, horde nights trigger so many more zombies than in the past that you need hundreds (eventually thousands) of bullets to dispose them. This leads you to yet another problem : when you have to mine a ♥♥♥♥ton to craft hundreds of bullets for a horde night, you have way more than enough bullets to expand for daily exploration & looting activities. This in turn makes bows and crossbows "cheap" ammo less valuable than ever.

I understand the problem we had of "hit a wall and all the sleepers in the building wake up and path to you". But I don't think the right solution for the problem was found. The world feels more empty and dead than ever, whether it's outside or inside. Simply cranking up the numbers of spawners is just a wonky bandaid because then you ♥♥♥♥ up the whole balance of experience, ammo, etc.

Honestly, cities should just be damn hard to navigate through. It just shouldn't be a Day 1 base location, and you should have to both work hard to get in AND work hard to stay in, like it used to be. On top of that, POIs need to feel alive. Mix in roaming zeds with the current sleepers, add mid-way challenges/bosses, etc.

Also, I think a decent addition would be another type of rage, where zombies get faster & stronger the longer they bash in walls without seeing you. Sure, you could wake em all up by shooting your gun in the air, but expect to face a group of mad zombies on steroids once they bash their way through to you. Makes stealthing an interesting mechanic, while going in all guns blazing adds a bit of a challenge if you don't kill all the alive zombies fast enough.

 

[-Holo-]

I think the "hit a wall and all the sleepers in the building wake up and path to you" concerns often miss that in say A15, if you did that you'd end up with a bunch of zombies from the house coming out, aswell as a bunch of zombies from the vicinity closing in on you.

I'm playing a A15 game, with high (I think) zombie density and there's easily gathering up over 40 zombies on a streetbrawl like that. Which could get dangerous quite fast early game.

Then of course those houses are regular normal houses with normal loot and not like most current lootpinata POI's with tons of loot at the end of the level, sorry, end of the POI

Meaning there could be little to none useable loot gathered from that if luck was out on a coffee break, Another day of no water unless the next house happened to have a cooking pot in it's loot.

Combining that with the relative scarce brass supply, one would not go gun blazing in until fairly 'lategame'. Conserving ammo was a nice thing to have to consider.

 

[Linkhead2]

That's weird, since A15 and A16 managed tons of zombies in cities with no effort. And for the short time I tried modding in more zombies in A18 (a LOT more with maxAlive set to 64) it ran absolutely fine. So are we all suffering because a few players a running on potatoes?

Not really, Many of the games textures have increased in quality, causing Computers like mine to rapidly slow down in power. This is caused by a lack of optimization in game sustainability, caused by the Devs.