Simple, Tangible but game changing horde night rework

[meganoth]

"""BUT a small fraction of them did not follow that same strategy (say: 10%), it would add a touch of randomness to the game. Your base might be "perfect" and maybe even AFK possible, but that 10% being "not following the default AI playbook" might be enough to ruin your perfect base. """

this is perfect ^^^ 

And already in the game for 2-3 alphas.

So imagine if 7 Days to die difficulty did something like that, added new mechanics changed up the core gameplay of a lot of stuff, there is so much you could do.

As I said I am not happy with the difficulty slider myself. we'll see if TFP does anything about it eventually.

additionally this thread is proof of the many ideas they could do, and a few i could def see in the game and fit the theme and overall gameplay.

TFP is a small team, they only have a handful of programmers and they have their hands full with tasks already. Non-programmers always underestimate the time needed for changes and features. Just saying.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I had no fun at all building horde bases in A16. It was a brainless task as there was no reason for elaborate designs, the best design was just a block with all sides equal.

I wasn't going to comment, but I can't let this pass.  A16 was the most fun base building for me because it let me try things to see if I could get the zombies to do what I wanted.  Now there is no try, I know exactly how the zombies will behave, and this is much more boring to me.

 

[LuvShiramine]

And already in the game for 2-3 alphas.

As I said I am not happy with the difficulty slider myself. we'll see if TFP does anything about it eventually.

TFP is a small team, they only have a handful of programmers and they have their hands full with tasks already. Non-programmers always underestimate the time needed for changes and features. Just saying.

In response, of the 2 posts you've said i want to make a few points

Even if 64 zombies works and the ai doesn't bug, stand still or just not update its pathing, that's only 6 zombies, and in optimal fashion lets assume that these zombies aren't the bugged ones, there's no guaranty that this zombie will even reach the block its trying to break, or stick to it, or have another one finish its job, i don't want to say "and its not 100% going to be attacking something optimal" because that brings us back to engineer zombies.

so that's a huge problem with the buggy ai. and it would barely make a difference on its own, you'd need to raise the horde cap to like 72, and update the ai so it doesn't bug, then increase this to like 25% to see a concrete difference in this. 

but yes i stand with the difficulty, w take. 

You should replay A16 if you think the strategy the zombies used then was any less predictable than it is now. In A16 the zombies (when not running in circles) just ran straight at you

I found this to be engaging in its own way, (im not saying it was flawless, no this entire article i've been leaning into the idea of a16 ai) and the qualities it had, because it felt more like a hold out, kind of stressful where you had to be aware at all sides, because like you said they run quite literally right at you, into your walls stairs ramps fences perimeters ect... but obviously like you said certain stuff like spike walls and stuff countered it very very well, and the big old jumped up block meta, however demos spiders and vultures we have now could make that mildly less effective

speaking of traps and spikes a zombie that could charge though traps and slam into your walls with that charge would be kinda cool and interactive, like literally just copy and paste the charger from left 4 dead, but he flings your spikes and cant get electrocuted by fences 

 

I had no fun at all building horde bases in A16. It was a brainless task as there was no reason for elaborate designs

yes and no, if you tried to over build sometimes the zombies would just chew through everything and you were helpless , some times the boring based with 99999 spikes and a cube so you could see all your sides yes, BUT like i said new demos and vultures (with a buff ) chewing open your walls and a 1-2 more special infected could change up that meta to something more unique, however to achieve that +that true hold out stress inducing gameplay you need more underlying mechanics and game health changes 
 

TFP is a small team, they only have a handful of programmers and they have their hands full with tasks already. Non-programmers always underestimate the time needed for changes and features. Just saying.

this is absolutely fair BUT i wish they were louder with their voices on what they were working on, eta, how they honestly take the community's opinions, what changes they will do regardless, what changes they won't do, what changes they would go back on if we hated them.

a W.I.P board of future stuff exists but if it were layed out into a complex road map on what they want to do, and what they are doing that would help

also what stuff they actually want to do would be nice as well 

 

 

[meganoth]

In response, of the 2 posts you've said i want to make a few points

Even if 64 zombies works and the ai doesn't bug, stand still or just not update its pathing, that's only 6 zombies, and in optimal fashion lets assume that these zombies aren't the bugged ones, there's no guaranty that this zombie will even reach the block its trying to break, or stick to it, or have another one finish its job, i don't want to say "and its not 100% going to be attacking something optimal" because that brings us back to engineer zombies.

so that's a huge problem with the buggy ai. and it would barely make a difference on its own, you'd need to raise the horde cap to like 72, and update the ai so it doesn't bug, then increase this to like 25% to see a concrete difference in this. 

Not sure what you mean with buggy AI. There was the very problematic bug in the A16 AI which you mentioned as well, but I don't remember any serious bug now, neither did you seem to have mention one in this thread. Whatever the AI does now is mostly what the developers intended, so it's by definition not a bug, at most a disagreement between your and their vision

I found this to be engaging in its own way, (im not saying it was flawless, no this entire article i've been leaning into the idea of a16 ai) and the qualities it had, because it felt more like a hold out, kind of stressful where you had to be aware at all sides, because like you said they run quite literally right at you, into your walls stairs ramps fences perimeters ect... but obviously like you said certain stuff like spike walls and stuff countered it very very well, and the big old jumped up block meta, however demos spiders and vultures we have now could make that mildly less effective

speaking of traps and spikes a zombie that could charge though traps and slam into your walls with that charge would be kinda cool and interactive, like literally just copy and paste the charger from left 4 dead, but he flings your spikes and cant get electrocuted by fences 

?? The demolisher already charges through spike traps without taking damage.

yes and no, if you tried to over build sometimes the zombies would just chew through everything and you were helpless , some times the boring based with 99999 spikes and a cube so you could see all your sides yes, BUT like i said new demos and vultures (with a buff ) chewing open your walls and a 1-2 more special infected could change up that meta to something more unique, however to achieve that +that true hold out stress inducing gameplay you need more underlying mechanics and game health changes 

As you said "could". In my opinion demos with A16 AI would just mean you would need stronger defense blocks all around (and if you already were at steel you would need to use thicker walls). No new meta, just more wall. Exactly because he can hit any point of the wall, any point has to withstand the normal damage plus the additional damage of the demo.

 

[LuvShiramine]

spawn 64 zombies and just run around, jump on stuff and run around stuff. for example if you have them pile up on something you're on and jump off half of them will still keep hitting it as you run away, some will run the opposite direction ect ect, just try it for yourself.

there is a mechanic in place to make them different then ferals for the exact reason but it doesn't work that well, because if you spawn in 50-60 ferals and just run around and jump on stuff and run away, some straight up get their ai disabled at the very worst, with the same issues i said above meaning high zombie counts are impossible due to this as well as the performance

 

?? The demolisher already charges through spike traps without taking damage.

interesting never seen it 

but if im yet again wrong by saying this, he should fling them, similar to when you throw dynamite, and the blocks get flung so everyone else can have an opening 

 

As you said "could". In my opinion demos with A16 AI would just mean you would need stronger defense blocks all around (and if you already were at steel you would need to use thicker walls). No new meta, just more wall. Exactly because he can hit any point of the wall, any point has to withstand the normal damage plus the additional damage of the demo.

 this might be hard to explain so bare with me.  thats why i said "you need more underlying mechanics and game health changes "  such as making it so you can't farm so many resources, especially stuff like infinite ammo with mining, stuff like "your protection is not guarantied but earned", as you progress you find toughs, ferals and irradiated more and more common so you need higher tier weapons and qualities and perks, that is GOOD progression, because for once you're pressured to loot and scavenge to have a better chance to fight back , BUT unfortunately you probably get max stuff by day 25 anyways, lets completely slow down progression, by

nerfing trader quests and balancing their stocks, trader stage was a good change, it makes sense and is balanced, its the beginning of the apocalypse of course hes not going to have guns from the military 

you can only get high tier items from the wasteland cities or really high tier stuff from regular cities AND make them more dangerous,, which biome tier helps with this thankfully which i LOVE,  this makes the game have more emphasized visible progression 

make balances to early game stuff like cobblestone blocks crossbows, and traps

like make them less farmable but more rewarding, or vice versa (blocks and traps especially)  

changes to stuff like mollys grenades and over all the balanced of infected like i said stuff like more mechanics is play, make them get stronger over time in some way to incentivize going past day 40, and as days go on make everything more dangerous such as higher infected counts to make end games have more spice as well as add a bunch of changes to make this work as effective as possible, i'd need to have to play with it to really give you a good insight 

ALSO, to make progression feel better plain and simple, and even if my ideas are a little unrealistic or bad this one isn't and debate me on it if it isn't

Make as many weapons as you can unique and have their own prepose outside of builds and perk effectiveness, make them unique, pump shot gun has amazing range but a felt cooldown for missing, pipe shotgun does random damage because of how unreliable it is, auto shotgun has high spread but doesnt have the cons of those 2, steel sledge vs iron, one swings faster and does this and that and one swings slower but has a higher decap chance and not be just better versions of themselves, that should be what quality and attachments are for, raise quality up to 20 for end game preposes to scale with how they get stronger, some hordes would feel like a death grip on your throat because you only have a few grenades your traps are broken and your m60 is a low quality and does less and less damage as the day goes by, you cant repair stuff because you didn't want to loot that high tier chemical lab full of wights and didn't start a farm for buffs and didn't go mining for minerals for base upgrades and repairs so now you have to work with what you got, and others where you did and got a new shiny rpg and a new spinning blade trap with some steel and resources and the horde is easier, those demos didn't hurt as bad and that rpg kept the pressure off 

make it reward proactive players and make end games be just as good as early games with scavenging and such 

 

[zztong]

spawn 64 zombies and just run around, jump on stuff and run around stuff. for example if you have them pile up on something you're on and jump off half of them will still keep hitting it as you run away, some will run the opposite direction ect ect, just try it for yourself.

Sure. I tend to fight hordes in the open and stay mobile the entire time. With that many zombies it takes the game a bit for each of them to figure out you've moved, react, and plot a new path to you. Plus, I'm moving the entire time so the zombies that spit at me only hit if I happen to move back through their targeted area. It's far more responsive with fewer zombies.

I could see where the game might have a zombie in rage mode (destroying a block) not look around for a couple of seconds, leaving more time to spend updating the other zombies. I don't know if that's one the game's optimizations, but I could understand doing it.

 

[Vaeliorin]

ALSO, to make progression feel better plain and simple, and even if my ideas are a little unrealistic or bad this one isn't and debate me on it if it isn't

This would enforce even more the looting playstyle.  As someone who, prior to A21, wouldn't hardly do any looting after day 14 or so (maybe 1 POI every 3 days at most), I would hate this.  I already have to spend more time looting than I want to.  Putting stuff in high tier POIs only is a problem too, as I don't like T5 POIs.  They're long and not sufficiently rewarding for the effort.  I find them dull and tedious.

Also, I usually don't even have Wasteland in my map, because it's just wasted space to me, as I never want to go there.  It's just too ugly.  The only time I ever willingly go to the wasteland is if I'm going zombie bear hunting because I need more rotten flesh for farm plots.

Basically, your ideas would take even more choice of playstyle away from the player, and TFP have already done enough of that in the last few alphas.

 

[LuvShiramine]

This would enforce even more the looting playstyle.  As someone who, prior to A21, wouldn't hardly do any looting after day 14 or so (maybe 1 POI every 3 days at most), I would hate this.  I already have to spend more time looting than I want to.  Putting stuff in high tier POIs only is a problem too, as I don't like T5 POIs.  They're long and not sufficiently rewarding for the effort.  I find them dull and tedious.

Also, I usually don't even have Wasteland in my map, because it's just wasted space to me, as I never want to go there.  It's just too ugly.  The only time I ever willingly go to the wasteland is if I'm going zombie bear hunting because I need more rotten flesh for farm plots.

Basically, your ideas would take even more choice of playstyle away from the player, and TFP have already done enough of that in the last few alphas.

Don't you already never have to loot ?? the looting play style is dead, do a few poi with traders and do a few other quests and you're done by day 20... magazines have made this worse though... they ACTUALLY force looting 

but you have to understand this is a scavenging based apocalypse survival game, what did you expect ? stuff to pop out of thin air ? 90% of this game is progression and looting so idk what you mean by "looting play style" exactly as thats basically the entire game 

Sure. I tend to fight hordes in the open and stay mobile the entire time. With that many zombies it takes the game a bit for each of them to figure out you've moved, react, and plot a new path to you. Plus, I'm moving the entire time so the zombies that spit at me only hit if I happen to move back through their targeted area. It's far more responsive with fewer zombies.

I could see where the game might have a zombie in rage mode (destroying a block) not look around for a couple of seconds, leaving more time to spend updating the other zombies. I don't know if that's one the game's optimizations, but I could understand doing it.

on paper that just comes out as "less zombies = more zombies updating " which defeats the whole point of having large hordes 

get more zombies, realize with this new setting that they are delayed and buggy , back at square one of want more zombies because half of them don't work 

 

[Vaeliorin]

Don't you already never have to loot ?? the looting play style is dead, do a few poi with traders and do a few other quests and you're done by day 20... magazines have made this worse though... they ACTUALLY force looting 

but you have to understand this is a scavenging based apocalypse survival game, what did you expect ? stuff to pop out of thin air ? 90% of this game is progression and looting so idk what you mean by "looting play style" exactly as thats basically the entire game

Back before A21, I use to spend maybe the first couple weeks looting, and then the vast majority of the rest of my time building (often another 3-4 weeks).  After A21, I have to keep looting for much longer (5-6 weeks or so to max out every magazine) instead of doing what I want to be doing, which is building large bases.  With your suggestion, I'd have to spend even more time looting to get the whatever it is I'd need from the high tier chemical lab to repair.

Similarly with having to go to wasteland cities or high tier POIs.

Regardless, I've been playing since A16, and until A21 it wasn't a "scavenging based apocalypse survival game" it was more a sandbox apocalypse survival game.  I could largely ignore POIs after the first couple weeks and be fine.  With the changes in A21 and your suggestions, I'd have to spend much more time looting POIs (and POIs in places I don't care to go), taking even more choice away from the player than has already been removed.

Basically, with the changes you seem to be suggesting, I'd never have time to do stuff like thisView attachment 2440

View attachment 2376View attachment 2377

because I'd need to spend a lot more time looting.

 

[meganoth]

spawn 64 zombies and just run around, jump on stuff and run around stuff. for example if you have them pile up on something you're on and jump off half of them will still keep hitting it as you run away, some will run the opposite direction ect ect, just try it for yourself.

Not sure to what you are replying here, but if it is about a new meta, then first of all this is no new meta as it was and is a possible playstyle in A16 and A17-A21. In A17-A21 you just have to make sure that you jump on stuff that is not all interconnected and they will constantly change target. This is also a playstyle for veteran players of action games and young players (because of faster reflexes) who don't want to think much about how their horde base is set up. Just plop down dozens of points to jump on and you are set.

There are hundreds of games where the whole fight depends solely on your reflexes, but only this one allows you to instead put your brain to work and build a horde base that automates part of the defense. Which is an alternative for players not brought up on action games. Which by the way ticks of both the tower defense and sandbox genres listed as part of 7days (the latter because both an action oriented and a base building playstyle are possible)

nteresting never seen it 

but if im yet again wrong by saying this, he should fling them, similar to when you throw dynamite, and the blocks get flung so everyone else can have an opening 

He doesn't fling them but he destroys any spike traps he runs through and that creates an opening.

this might be hard to explain so bare with me.  thats why i said "you need more underlying mechanics and game health changes "  such as making it so you can't farm so many resources, especially stuff like infinite ammo with mining, stuff like "your protection is not guarantied but earned", as you progress you find toughs, ferals and irradiated more and more common so you need higher tier weapons and qualities and perks, that is GOOD progression, because for once you're pressured to loot and scavenge to have a better chance to fight back , BUT unfortunately you probably get max stuff by day 25 anyways, lets completely slow down progression, by

nerfing trader quests and balancing their stocks, trader stage was a good change, it makes sense and is balanced, its the beginning of the apocalypse of course hes not going to have guns from the military 

you can only get high tier items from the wasteland cities or really high tier stuff from regular cities AND make them more dangerous,, which biome tier helps with this thankfully which i LOVE,  this makes the game have more emphasized visible progression 

make balances to early game stuff like cobblestone blocks crossbows, and traps

like make them less farmable but more rewarding, or vice versa (blocks and traps especially)  

changes to stuff like mollys grenades and over all the balanced of infected like i said stuff like more mechanics is play, make them get stronger over time in some way to incentivize going past day 40, and as days go on make everything more dangerous such as higher infected counts to make end games have more spice as well as add a bunch of changes to make this work as effective as possible, i'd need to have to play with it to really give you a good insight 

ALSO, to make progression feel better plain and simple, and even if my ideas are a little unrealistic or bad this one isn't and debate me on it if it isn't

Make as many weapons as you can unique and have their own prepose outside of builds and perk effectiveness, make them unique, pump shot gun has amazing range but a felt cooldown for missing, pipe shotgun does random damage because of how unreliable it is, auto shotgun has high spread but doesnt have the cons of those 2, steel sledge vs iron, one swings faster and does this and that and one swings slower but has a higher decap chance and not be just better versions of themselves, that should be what quality and attachments are for, raise quality up to 20 for end game preposes to scale with how they get stronger, some hordes would feel like a death grip on your throat because you only have a few grenades your traps are broken and your m60 is a low quality and does less and less damage as the day goes by, you cant repair stuff because you didn't want to loot that high tier chemical lab full of wights and didn't start a farm for buffs and didn't go mining for minerals for base upgrades and repairs so now you have to work with what you got, and others where you did and got a new shiny rpg and a new spinning blade trap with some steel and resources and the horde is easier, those demos didn't hurt as bad and that rpg kept the pressure off 

make it reward proactive players and make end games be just as good as early games with scavenging and such 

Fully agree on the general message that there should be better balancing, especially of the trader. I could point to a few threads where some forum users including me were critizising that the progression of anything to do with the trader is much too fast and the change of the crafting progression to magazines had practically no effect because of this. I heard there were balancing changes (to the trader and everything) in A22 so we'll have to see what that brings.

There is also a feature that was planned for a long time, legendary weapons, which would go into the direction of your suggestions in the last paragraph, there is still hope that features could get in some day, maybe even in A22.

But

 

[meganoth]

Back before A21, I use to spend maybe the first couple weeks looting, and then the vast majority of the rest of my time building (often another 3-4 weeks).  After A21, I have to keep looting for much longer (5-6 weeks or so to max out every magazine) instead of doing what I want to be doing, which is building large bases.  With your suggestion, I'd have to spend even more time looting to get the whatever it is I'd need from the high tier chemical lab to repair.

Was this just a mistake when you write "max out every magazine"? If not, it isn't a surprise you can't do a builder playstyle if you try to get too many magazines useless to you.

I am not saying the builder playstyle is as easy as before, but you still should be able to do it without 6 weeks continuous questing. You just need a source of income and you need to collect a few specific magazines and only up to specific points where crucial recipes are learned. The rest can be bought from the trader. And even in late game you can get more magazines from the trader or from tours every 7 days to loot all newspaper boxes in a city, without doing any quest or entering POIs.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Was this just a mistake when you write "max out every magazine"? If not, it isn't a surprise you can't do a builder playstyle if you try to get too many magazines useless to you.

I am not saying the builder playstyle is as easy as before, but you still should be able to do it without 6 weeks continuous questing. You just need a source of income and you need to collect a few specific magazines and only up to specific points where crucial recipes are learned. The rest can be bought from the trader. And even in late game you can get more magazines from the trader or from tours every 7 days to loot all newspaper boxes in a city, without doing any quest or entering POIs.

If the magazines exist, I must max them.  I'm a compulsive completionist.  Also, I'd like to be able to craft everything. 

I know, I'm a weirdo.

I also play with loot respawn off, so no re-looting mailboxes.

I'm on Day 19 in my current game and I've got all the really relevant magazines maxed out (I don't have machine guns maxed out, but I got a q6 M60 from a trader tier reward...would still really like to max out bows), but I find that the rate at which I acquire magazines really slows down after the first couple weeks because I've hit all the good book POIs I'm aware of.  That's what really makes it take so long, is that sources of books become much more rare (or require more travel time) the older the world is.

There are also mod recipes that I'd really like that I don't have yet (Customized Fittings and Rad Remover in particular.)

 

[doughphunghus]

I also play with loot respawn off, so no re-looting mailboxes.

I do this too, mostly to force me to migrate to new areas... just had a random thought: i wonder if loot respawn is off, if there are enough "things to loot" in the default Navezgane map to allow 100% magazine completion? Its a pretty sparsely populated map but i feel it is the "map that should allow the most desired TFP gameplay". Yeah, i guess "just keep going to the trader" would eventually get you there. I kinda feel this type of sparse poi unrich map is really "the best" for a long survival feeling game (and i like it for that) but i wonder if TFP is using it for playtesting and balancing things like magazine and maybe vehicle progression.

 

[warmer]

, A16 and previous I built a few bases but I eventually stopped because that AI at the time challenged me to build a base that didn't break the AI or make it boring (RIP if you wanted to stand on elevated bars, spin.exe would start). The main goal is to let players be creative in base building/defenses but still challenged to defend it. 

This is the primary challenge I think a dev team faces with AI. There are people that want a realistic base with zero cheese/exploits of the AI to give a true feeling of accomplishment, and then there are players that have no desire for realism achitecturally speaking and just want to kill zombies and collect lots bags on horde night.

Being able to fully accommodate both types of players is a hair I don't think anyone can split. Rage mode in my mind is an answer to player cheese. The whole idea is to ensure you never truly feel safe. Many alphas ago you could just dig down to bed rock or 150 meters into a mount side and never experience a horde.

I feel like more adjustments/levels of severity to "feral sense" would get people closer to their ideal AI for their play style.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, I just want an AI that requires me to put in some effort and try new things to make them go where I want.  Now, it's so simple that you could have the structure of a horde base that can take on any horde on Day 1.  You might need to upgrade the materials, but when all you need is a double wall to control where the zombies go, it's just way too easy.