Archon
New member
This started off as a look at the economy (which I believe, is still completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥; but in the opposite direction of what it was.) but it got long winded as each little issue seemed to connect to another little issue... and another... until I kinda realized; a lot more things than just the economy need to be cleaned up.
To be clear; I'm not hating on the game. I'm over 2K hours logged on steam, and despite any best efforts; you're not going to chase me off because it's wah too hard.
Framing the situation:
-I’m playing multiplayer.
-We have 3 constantly active people
-Trader / Nomad / Chef
-Archer / Miner / Construction guy
-Harvester of cars / quests / zombie killer
I’ve noticed that all of our players have gravitated to a single combat build: sledge / archery / light armor. I believe this is because it’s the only effective per opportunity cost way of dealing with undead. (outside of hoard night)
Or, that the opportunity cost of using fire arms is never worth the payoff - unless it’s to avoid a death. (Which is only ever the case with unexpected dog / bear attacks. Even then, the bow usually does the job on it’s own.)
I pack a single emergency firearm; with the ammo in it’s own clip (plus none). If I have to fire this; it’s because I already ♥♥♥♥♥♥up. Otherwise the only weapons used are all hail the mighty king sledge - stunner of mobs. Destroyer of all things, hallowed be his name. And the skyrim-stealth archer, bow.
Why: The sledge hammer auto wins any encounter where you can hit your target. The perk is far and above the best of any weapon. It repairs with forged iron; which is cheap and easily obtainable. The bow; because ammunition is abundant, and it can kill in 1-2 hits. Especially with sneak attacks. It is completely silent. (Crossbows still raise your detection bar when fired; they are no longer silent. They are trash. That is all.)
Sitting on day 110; A17.1, 5200 kills, zero deaths.
Given MadMole’s response about the ability to kinda break even (it’s still operating at a loss due to food consumption) spending a whole day lumberjacking; I noticed there’s a factor that is being forgotten.
Time.
This game is heavily focused around time management; with the always impending hoard looming above you. Any activity that can consume time; to only almost break even with resource cost (as outlined by Royal in the economy thread) is not balanced.
Even as a side, few minute activity… it’ll amount to nothing worth any value. A couple hundred dukes for 5-10 minutes of tree harvesting isn’t worth the inventory slot it would occupy. When you can instead; go about your normal progression path and eventually drop a minute queueing up the crafting of sets of steel armor at multiple work benches - because it’s by comparison cheap to craft vs the thousands of coins its worth; and just pick them up later.
Related tangent: we're all using Light Armor because the trade off of having less stamina regen, and slower movement speed is NEVER worth the additional damage mitigation. To highlight this; unless I'm specifically ♥♥♥♥ing around in a POI or doing a clear; (Heck even running around at home base) I just don't wear armor. The movement speed penalty is steep enough to completely write off using heavy; ever imo. But add on top of that the lessened stamina, and most of the game you're actively hurting yourself wearing it.
I've seen a lot of people talk about how having too much money isn't balanced: I have over a million dukes laying around. And nothing to spend them on. This, I believe; is an equally important problem. The only thing of any relative value a trader offers is ammunition, and early game repair material. So every three days they’ll stock (if I’m lucky) 50-100 rounds. These days not even picking up the resources other than gunpowder because steel and iron are very plentiful. Our three people are building a 50x50 x 4 floor building, and steel is plentiful.
Tools can easily be made yourself. And once made you don’t need another. Augers / Chainsaws just don’t seem worth using, but they have great value. So I love getting one as a reward from a T5 quest because its 10x the payout selling the tool back to the guy than what I got in quest credit.
Recog; is another reward I love seeing. Because it made the literal walls of glowbois; on our night 21 hoard fight-able. (Granted, in 30 second windows. Because holy crap is that buff timer too damn short for what one of these costs.)
Ranty-ness aside; credit on addressing the glowboi issue. It was another factor in pigeon holing people into builds purely for maximum effectiveness; rather than what I wanted a character to be roleplayed as. In prior builds; I liked to play this as a Walking Dead / Dawn of the Dead game with Fallout flavor mixed on.
Mostly nomadic -
I liked blades; because while not as effective as clubs - they were a tool and saved me an inventory slot. Sadly; blades just cannot compete as a weapon against the other two types. The perks are useless.
I liked the crossbow; because honestly the draw and fire on the bow is more mechanically demanding and gets tiresome after a while. Plus, explody bolts! Man those are great! (Well, they were. No explosive seems to be doing damage as of A17.1 Checked the xmls, and they have a listed damage of zero by default.) In A16, it was also silent. Pretty much everything you could want in one package, right? Well, now it’s not silent anymore. Given the former frequency of glowbois; stealth is all that mattered. And the crossbow is just not stealth compatible.
Little long winded but that’s where I’m at. The way I want to play the game just really doesn’t function anymore. Due to some major imbalances in perks, and some very very bullet-spongy HP Brick zombies.
Final note; I take great pride in completely avoiding hoards at the moment. Because I’ve been told you can’t. So cheers as I down this beer next to my campfire, in complete safety.
To be clear; I'm not hating on the game. I'm over 2K hours logged on steam, and despite any best efforts; you're not going to chase me off because it's wah too hard.
Framing the situation:
-I’m playing multiplayer.
-We have 3 constantly active people
-Trader / Nomad / Chef
-Archer / Miner / Construction guy
-Harvester of cars / quests / zombie killer
I’ve noticed that all of our players have gravitated to a single combat build: sledge / archery / light armor. I believe this is because it’s the only effective per opportunity cost way of dealing with undead. (outside of hoard night)
Or, that the opportunity cost of using fire arms is never worth the payoff - unless it’s to avoid a death. (Which is only ever the case with unexpected dog / bear attacks. Even then, the bow usually does the job on it’s own.)
I pack a single emergency firearm; with the ammo in it’s own clip (plus none). If I have to fire this; it’s because I already ♥♥♥♥♥♥up. Otherwise the only weapons used are all hail the mighty king sledge - stunner of mobs. Destroyer of all things, hallowed be his name. And the skyrim-stealth archer, bow.
Why: The sledge hammer auto wins any encounter where you can hit your target. The perk is far and above the best of any weapon. It repairs with forged iron; which is cheap and easily obtainable. The bow; because ammunition is abundant, and it can kill in 1-2 hits. Especially with sneak attacks. It is completely silent. (Crossbows still raise your detection bar when fired; they are no longer silent. They are trash. That is all.)
Sitting on day 110; A17.1, 5200 kills, zero deaths.
Given MadMole’s response about the ability to kinda break even (it’s still operating at a loss due to food consumption) spending a whole day lumberjacking; I noticed there’s a factor that is being forgotten.
Time.
This game is heavily focused around time management; with the always impending hoard looming above you. Any activity that can consume time; to only almost break even with resource cost (as outlined by Royal in the economy thread) is not balanced.
Even as a side, few minute activity… it’ll amount to nothing worth any value. A couple hundred dukes for 5-10 minutes of tree harvesting isn’t worth the inventory slot it would occupy. When you can instead; go about your normal progression path and eventually drop a minute queueing up the crafting of sets of steel armor at multiple work benches - because it’s by comparison cheap to craft vs the thousands of coins its worth; and just pick them up later.
Related tangent: we're all using Light Armor because the trade off of having less stamina regen, and slower movement speed is NEVER worth the additional damage mitigation. To highlight this; unless I'm specifically ♥♥♥♥ing around in a POI or doing a clear; (Heck even running around at home base) I just don't wear armor. The movement speed penalty is steep enough to completely write off using heavy; ever imo. But add on top of that the lessened stamina, and most of the game you're actively hurting yourself wearing it.
I've seen a lot of people talk about how having too much money isn't balanced: I have over a million dukes laying around. And nothing to spend them on. This, I believe; is an equally important problem. The only thing of any relative value a trader offers is ammunition, and early game repair material. So every three days they’ll stock (if I’m lucky) 50-100 rounds. These days not even picking up the resources other than gunpowder because steel and iron are very plentiful. Our three people are building a 50x50 x 4 floor building, and steel is plentiful.
Tools can easily be made yourself. And once made you don’t need another. Augers / Chainsaws just don’t seem worth using, but they have great value. So I love getting one as a reward from a T5 quest because its 10x the payout selling the tool back to the guy than what I got in quest credit.
Recog; is another reward I love seeing. Because it made the literal walls of glowbois; on our night 21 hoard fight-able. (Granted, in 30 second windows. Because holy crap is that buff timer too damn short for what one of these costs.)
Ranty-ness aside; credit on addressing the glowboi issue. It was another factor in pigeon holing people into builds purely for maximum effectiveness; rather than what I wanted a character to be roleplayed as. In prior builds; I liked to play this as a Walking Dead / Dawn of the Dead game with Fallout flavor mixed on.
Mostly nomadic -
I liked blades; because while not as effective as clubs - they were a tool and saved me an inventory slot. Sadly; blades just cannot compete as a weapon against the other two types. The perks are useless.
I liked the crossbow; because honestly the draw and fire on the bow is more mechanically demanding and gets tiresome after a while. Plus, explody bolts! Man those are great! (Well, they were. No explosive seems to be doing damage as of A17.1 Checked the xmls, and they have a listed damage of zero by default.) In A16, it was also silent. Pretty much everything you could want in one package, right? Well, now it’s not silent anymore. Given the former frequency of glowbois; stealth is all that mattered. And the crossbow is just not stealth compatible.
Little long winded but that’s where I’m at. The way I want to play the game just really doesn’t function anymore. Due to some major imbalances in perks, and some very very bullet-spongy HP Brick zombies.
Final note; I take great pride in completely avoiding hoards at the moment. Because I’ve been told you can’t. So cheers as I down this beer next to my campfire, in complete safety.
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