PC same facts

[HammerDano]

Before I get accused of trolling, I swear I opened this topic to start a conversation not an argument. I would ask that IF you are going to participate you answer the whole post not just the parts you thought weakest.

I get called a conspiracy nut by PC gamers because I don't have the same point of view. We disagree about the timeline...basic facts.

Bdubyah (who is admittedly not a mod but IS a longtime poster on this site) has said that TFP sold the console rights to Telltale. To my knowledge TFP have never acknowledged that...they have maintained that they did some kind of a licensing deal. Since I know a lot of moderators were also on that thread...either they didn't see what he wrote or they didn't think HE needed to be corrected...which is it?

if even tfp superfan PC guys think TFP sold the rights, why are we nut jobs for speculation? It seems reasonable to me that IF TFP sold the console rights for the money to work on the PC game....they could be lying about caring about the original console version (it should be fair game for me to speculate that was a cash grab). 

 

[meganoth]

Before I get accused of trolling, I swear I opened this topic to start a conversation not an argument. I would ask that IF you are going to participate you answer the whole post not just the parts you thought weakest.

I get called a conspiracy nut by PC gamers because I don't have the same point of view. We disagree about the timeline...basic facts.

Bdubyah (who is admittedly not a mod but IS a longtime poster on this site) has said that TFP sold the console rights to Telltale. To my knowledge TFP have never acknowledged that...they have maintained that they did some kind of a licensing deal. Since I know a lot of moderators were also on that thread...either they didn't see what he wrote or they didn't think HE needed to be corrected...which is it?

if even tfp superfan PC guys think TFP sold the rights, why are we nut jobs for speculation? It seems reasonable to me that IF TFP sold the console rights for the money to work on the PC game....they could be lying about caring about the original console version (it should be fair game for me to speculate that was a cash grab). 

I am not a lawyer, neither are most or all of the participents here, so it probably is hard to discuss for many. I have some laymans understanding of copyright and other concepts because I read a law blog for some time, but whatever I say should be taken with a quite a few grains of salt:

Licencing is the act of giving the right to use something for some time or indefinitely, either exclusively or inexlusively. An indefinite exclusive licence would be nearly the same as a sale (not in all manners, but many).  Even an exclusive licence for 10 years would make not that much difference to what happened in this case.

If the licencing deal had no provision what happens in the case of bankruptcy, the licence itself is just another asset that would be sold by the court appointed manager to reimburse creditors. It would not fall back to TFP. Same if it were actually sold to telltale.

One remaining important difference is that **usually** selling means one lump sum and licencing means continued payments, in this case that would probably be a percentage per sale of the console game.

Maybe it can get even more complicated: The right to publish on console could have been sold to Telltale, but access to the current source code of the PC version could have been licenced.

I think I remember that someone said here that he or a friend actually had a look at some financial numbers from Telltale and that there were licencing payments. Which would suggest that it was a licencing deal, but as I said above, maybe something was sold as well. We don't know.

One other fact is that at the time of the deal TFP was still a small developer and Telltale a rather big publisher. It was not a deal of equal powers. I wouldn't be surprised if T. had at least 5 times more laywers than TFP, if TFP even had more than one. As a publisher Telltale probably even had inhouse lawyers, i.e. fulltime. As far as we know it was Telltale who contacted TFP at that time and proposed the deal and it is likely that they drew up the contract, whatever was in it. If for example it didn't have a bankruptcy provision I would not be surprised if that didn't occur to the laywer or lawyers of TFP.

Now if TFP sold the rights, licenced the rights indefinitely or the deal had some provision missing about bankruptcy, we can, in hindsight, say that TFP made a mistake there.

But now, what does it mean exactly for us now? Does it matter in any way? Can we deduct from any factual evidence that TFP was lying when so many details are just unknown and speculation and TFP (at least here in this forum) is speaking as total layman about law stuff? Lets say, someone from TFP said "We sold the rights..." when he actually meant he "We licenced the rights...". I would assume he is speaking not as a lawyer and that people often make such mistakes. I would not even notice the difference until some law student pointed at this and I would probably make the same mistake in a forum discussion

What did Bduyah think? He probably isn't a lawyer as well. Did he know that selling and licencing is different? Would he always use the right words in a forum discussion? Maybe he can tell us (preferable without answering any of the other questions I posted unless he has something important to say about those as well )

And anyway, if Bduyah has an opinion about something he is a fan of, that still doesn't make it a fact. The question is would he be less fan if they sold the rights? If he is a PC player that fact would probably be as important to him as that sack of rice that toppled over in China.

 

[HammerDano]

I am not a lawyer, neither are most or all of the participents here, so it probably is hard to discuss for many. I have some laymans understanding of copyright and other concepts because I read a law blog for some time, but whatever I say should be taken with a quite a few grains of salt:

Licencing is the act of giving the right to use something for some time or indefinitely, either exclusively or inexlusively. An indefinite exclusive licence would be nearly the same as a sale (not in all manners, but many).  Even an exclusive licence for 10 years would make not that much difference to what happened in this case.

If the licencing deal had no provision what happens in the case of bankruptcy, the licence itself is just another asset that would be sold by the court appointed manager to reimburse creditors. It would not fall back to TFP. Same if it were actually sold to telltale.

One remaining important difference is that **usually** selling means one lump sum and licencing means continued payments, in this case that would probably be a percentage per sale of the console game.

Maybe it can get even more complicated: The right to publish on console could have been sold to Telltale, but access to the current source code of the PC version could have been licenced.

I think I remember that someone said here that he or a friend actually had a look at some financial numbers from Telltale and that there were licencing payments. Which would suggest that it was a licencing deal, but as I said above, maybe something was sold as well. We don't know.

One other fact is that at the time of the deal TFP was still a small developer and Telltale a rather big publisher. It was not a deal of equal powers. I wouldn't be surprised if T. had at least 5 times more laywers than TFP, if TFP even had more than one. As a publisher Telltale probably even had inhouse lawyers, i.e. fulltime. As far as we know it was Telltale who contacted TFP at that time and proposed the deal and it is likely that they drew up the contract, whatever was in it. If for example it didn't have a bankruptcy provision I would not be surprised if that didn't occur to the laywer or lawyers of TFP.

Now if TFP sold the rights, licenced the rights indefinitely or the deal had some provision missing about bankruptcy, we can, in hindsight, say that TFP made a mistake there.

Thank you...I think you perfectly encapsulated the spirit of how complicated the situation is...i believe it is a simple misunderstanding of this, that has led to the accusations that console people argue in bad faith, or with bad/faulty knowledge.

But now, what does it mean exactly for us now? Does it matter in any way? Can we deduct from any factual evidence that TFP was lying when so many details are just unknown and speculation and TFP (at least here in this forum) is speaking as total layman about law stuff? Lets say, someone from TFP said "We sold the rights..." when he actually meant he "We licenced the rights...". I would assume he is speaking not as a lawyer and that people often make such mistakes. I would not even notice the difference until some law student pointed at this and I would probably make the same mistake in a forum discussion

Here there may be some contention...I don't know if you can refer to what the staff of this site said as being "what TFP said"...as I have been told repeatedly that you are not TFP staff...just fans who moderate. 

I feel that the lack of clarity after all these years is dubious. It does cause doubt. I say that the details of the deal was/were covered up by TFP...I admit I can't prove that...mostly because the proof either way no longer seems to exist. Suppression of the inconvenient. They are in the position to know and should possess the documents to remove all doubts. 

What did Bduyah think? He probably isn't a lawyer as well. Did he know that selling and licencing is different? Would he always use the right words in a forum discussion? Maybe he can tell us (preferable without answering any of the other questions I posted unless he has something important to say about those as well )

And anyway, if Bduyah has an opinion about something he is a fan of, that still doesn't make it a fact. The question is would he be less fan if they sold the rights? If he is a PC player that fact would probably be as important to him as that sack of rice that toppled over in China.

I apologize to Bdubyah if he feels singled out. I brought you into this conversation to demonstrate to the rest, that even you, A TFP fan, have said that TFP sold the console rights.

I really do want to clear things up. To ask if it now still seems unreasonable for a console player to doubt TFP? If I could ask them a question, it would be, "when will you clear the air about what happened and when?"

 

[meganoth]

Here there may be some contention...I don't know if you can refer to what the staff of this site said as being "what TFP said"...as I have been told repeatedly that you are not TFP staff...just fans who moderate. 

A misunderstanding. When I say TFP I talk about the developers and owners, i.e. Fataal or Madmole, never about the forum moderators. But madmole and the developers are layman as well when it comes to law topics. When they talk here on the forum or in their videos they don't let a custom relations guy carefully set up a text, there is no error correction involved. I would not be surprised if there is a video where one of them said "sold the rights" when he meant "licenced the rights". I would assume that only their official announcements (on the 7daystodie.com website for example) are carefully crafted and would be almost free of error. If you read there that they either "licenced" or "sold" the game to Telltale then you can regard that as a fact (or if wrong as a strong sign of a lie)

I feel that the lack of clarity after all these years is dubious. It does cause doubt. I say that the details of the deal was/were covered up by TFP...I admit I can't prove that...mostly because the proof either way no longer seems to exist. Suppression of the inconvenient. They are in the position to know and should possess the documents to remove all doubts. 

I have never seen that TFP has given out details about their bussiness side. And I don't see that from most other game companies as well.

Especially with contracts both parties of a deal usually agree to forbid the release of any details. Try to get Sony to talk about any of their contracts. You will have as much luck as you would have with TFP.

 

[HammerDano]

A misunderstanding. When I say TFP I talk about the developers and owners, i.e. Fataal or Madmole, never about the forum moderators. But madmole and the developers are layman as well when it comes to law topics. When they talk here on the forum or in their videos they don't let a custom relations guy carefully set up a text, there is no error correction involved. I would not be surprised if there is a video where one of them said "sold the rights" when he meant "licenced the rights". I would assume that only their official announcements (on the 7daystodie.com website for example) are carefully crafted and would be almost free of error. If you read there that they either "licenced" or "sold" the game to Telltale then you can regard that as a fact (or if wrong as a strong sign of a lie)

I appreciate the clarification. 

When it comes to the matter of sold vs licensed. I really don't think it should or would be hard to clarify that...without revealing any other details.

To me, the idea that TFP SOLD the console rights to Telltale, VALIDATES my position. IF they licensed the game...they poorly protected themselves and the console gamers...which is partially better, but, not much.

I don't see a third explanation, but, feel like I am expected to accept that nothing TFP did or didn't do...was wrong.

I have never seen that TFP has given out details about their bussiness side. And I don't see that from most other game companies as well.

Especially with contracts both parties of a deal usually agree to forbid the release of any details. Try to get Sony to talk about any of their contracts. You will have as much luck as you would have with TFP.

Yes, companies often operate under non disclosures. More typically, they just discourage sharing just in case it hurts them. I understand what you are saying.

 

[thatguybeard]

I appreciate the clarification. 

When it comes to the matter of sold vs licensed. I really don't think it should or would be hard to clarify that...without revealing any other details.

To me, the idea that TFP SOLD the console rights to Telltale, VALIDATES my position. IF they licensed the game...they poorly protected themselves and the console gamers...which is partially better, but, not much.

I don't see a third explanation, but, feel like I am expected to accept that nothing TFP did or didn't do...was wrong.

Yes, companies often operate under non disclosures. More typically, they just discourage sharing just in case it hurts them. I understand what you are saying.

https://7daystodie.com/console-news/
 

In this article posted News and Announcements section of the Console side, post is titled Console News as well, Richard said they licensed the console rights to TellTale games. Hope this helps!

 

[meganoth]

appreciate the clarification. 

When it comes to the matter of sold vs licensed. I really don't think it should or would be hard to clarify that...without revealing any other details.

To me, the idea that TFP SOLD the console rights to Telltale, VALIDATES my position. IF they licensed the game...they poorly protected themselves and the console gamers...which is partially better, but, not much.

I don't see a third explanation, but, feel like I am expected to accept that nothing TFP did or didn't do...was wrong.

You may get an answer like "yes" or "no" if you actually catch madmole on a nowadays very rare visit to the forums and asked him nicely (i.e. without first suggesting that they lied about stuff ). But you seemed to be looking for something more substantial, like a proof or a detailed account where the details could be checked, but that answer would just be another unsupported claim. I simply don't see them ever disclosing relevant documents. Though if that answer would be enough, well, Madmole is sure to emerge eventually when the new game is revealed and has its forum or forum section.

The contract they had with telltale could have had lots and lots of provisions and clauses, and only the one about bankruptcy was missing. Or it had none, then TFP certainly would have been very blue-eyed and deserved critique. Though they still had means to defend their IP, like the source code, the name, etc, maybe they thought that was enough. Only it was nothing that would help with a bankruptcy of their partner.

Now TFP was hurt by this as well, so whatever blunder happened (or not), there followed a severe punishment. You want to tell them they made a mistake somewhere? They surely know already.

 

[HammerDano]

You may get an answer like "yes" or "no" if you actually catch madmole on a nowadays very rare visit to the forums and asked him nicely (i.e. without first suggesting that they lied about stuff ). But you seemed to be looking for something more substantial, like a proof or a detailed account where the details could be checked, but that answer would just be another unsupported claim. I simply don't see them ever disclosing relevant documents. Though if that answer would be enough, well, Madmole is sure to emerge eventually when the new game is revealed and has its forum or forum section.

The contract they had with telltale could have had lots and lots of provisions and clauses, and only the one about bankruptcy was missing. Or it had none, then TFP certainly would have been very blue-eyed and deserved critique. Though they still had means to defend their IP, like the source code, the name, etc, maybe they thought that was enough. Only it was nothing that would help with a bankruptcy of their partner.

Now TFP was hurt by this as well, so whatever blunder happened (or not), there followed a severe punishment. You want to tell them they made a mistake somewhere? They surely know already.

Allow me to clarify...what I am looking for is less hostile answers for console players. To build some basic understanding from the Moderators and the PC gamers on here. By having a conversation about the contentious so that we may move forward with more shared understanding of events. I plan on doing that by working through ONE thing at a time. A little disappointed that the usual crowd who have not hesitated to tell me what I am wrong about won't even participate in a conversation to clear up the misunderstandings, but, they can choose to or not. 

I appreciate the effort you are expending Meganoth. 

So I will try again:

If even PC gamers still believe that TFP sold the console rights...even if THAT is just misspeak... it is pervasive...why are so many of the moderators so hostile towards console gamers who also think that? 

Because if they sold the rights, nothing else TFP have said matters. They sold the rights and no longer have any say in it.  They can say they generically "cared" about the original console version, but, it would be also fair to say they "cared" more about the money to complete the PC version. TFP and yourselves maintain that "they" had nothing to do with telltales version. So are blameless for what followed. As a lay person, I do have a limited understanding of contract law, at best, and the details of what actually happened are hidden. TFP should remove all doubts as to what happened. I doubt they will either. But, I doubt because I believe it shows them in a negative light. Do you guys have any proof that is not a reasonable doubt for me to have?

If it was indeed some kind of a licensing deal as they maintain, then they did indeed royally screw the pooch. they did not protect the console gamers and we have been long overdue some honest communication...it should not have been such a debate about IF legacy would get a discount. (which they have spit on by putting the game on discount already)

I don't see a third option where they did nothing wrong. you guys seem to. I don't know why. can you explain it?

 

[meganoth]

Allow me to clarify...what I am looking for is less hostile answers for console players. To build some basic understanding from the Moderators and the PC gamers on here. By having a conversation about the contentious so that we may move forward with more shared understanding of events. I plan on doing that by working through ONE thing at a time. A little disappointed that the usual crowd who have not hesitated to tell me what I am wrong about won't even participate in a conversation to clear up the misunderstandings, but, they can choose to or not. 

I appreciate the effort you are expending Meganoth. 

So I will try again:

If even PC gamers still believe that TFP sold the console rights...even if THAT is just misspeak... it is pervasive...why are so many of the moderators so hostile towards console gamers who also think that? 

Because if they sold the rights, nothing else TFP have said matters. They sold the rights and no longer have any say in it.  They can say they generically "cared" about the original console version, but, it would be also fair to say they "cared" more about the money to complete the PC version. TFP and yourselves maintain that "they" had nothing to do with telltales version. So are blameless for what followed. As a lay person, I do have a limited understanding of contract law, at best, and the details of what actually happened are hidden. TFP should remove all doubts as to what happened. I doubt they will either. But, I doubt because I believe it shows them in a negative light. Do you guys have any proof that is not a reasonable doubt for me to have?

If it was indeed some kind of a licensing deal as they maintain, then they did indeed royally screw the pooch. they did not protect the console gamers and we have been long overdue some honest communication...it should not have been such a debate about IF legacy would get a discount. (which they have spit on by putting the game on discount already)

I don't see a third option where they did nothing wrong. you guys seem to. I don't know why. can you explain it?

There is a far gap between "They made mistakes **in hindsight** when brokering a deal" and "They are responsible for what happened and need to make retributions". They were not responsible for the bankruptcy and they should not have to pay through their noses for it when they did not cause the bankruptcy. They also (as far as we know) were finanically hurt by the bankruptcy just like console gamers got hurt by a patch not coming that was dearly needed.

If Telltale had lost a lot of money because they ported 7D2D to console then we could maybe argue that TFP was partly responsible for the crash of Telltale, but it seems to have been one of the few games that still made money for Telltale.

Even if we were to agree that TFP, because they made mistakes at that time, should now have some responsibility to the console gamers, they are not suddenly responsible for the whole damages. I don't see why they should practically feel responsible to reimburse 100% of the damages incurred to the console gamers. Certainly the law has no provision like that, neither do I see a moral right that would go further than a deduction, simply because the alternative would in my estimation be almost suicide. In my view the deduction was necessary, but not really as a reparation by a guilty party.

 Some thoughts about the financial side of this:

tldr; Giving out the game for free would be a major financial loss for TFP and probably would kill at least their next project or projects with it.

When I do the math then I really don't see how they could afford to give the game for free to everyone who got it already. When I hear about some licence deal the usual percentage the licensee gets is somewhere in the range of 1 and 20% of every sale. Because often distribution already gets about 30% or more of each sale, in this case with the console companies I would expect more as they cross-finance their hardware through their cut, the publisher wants his cut as well for publishing and porting (through Iron Galaxy), there are taxes to deduct, maybe even more costs I didn't think of. Now with the new port to console TFP would need to pay everyone of those mentioned above (the new publisher instead of telltale and Sony or Microsoft) their expected cut from the sale if they wanted to give the game free to previous owners. Neither Sony, Microsoft or the new publisher have any reason at all to give out something for free, they want to earn money, right? So TFP would have to pay out of its own pockets.

So lets say they actually got 25% of each sale of the old version, they invested the money so inflation doesn't matter to our thought experiment, 70% of old owners speak up to get a copy of the new game for free (who wouldn't?). Sonysoft will want their cut, 30%, the publisher wants say 15%, and probably taxes should be on top (?). It comes to say 55%.

25%- 0.7*55% = -38.5%  . This would be the total loss per console game Telltale sold.

If there were say 2 million sales of the old game at 40$ each (totally made up numbers) it would have made 2 million *40 *25% = 20 million. To give away the game for free now they would now have to pay 2 million * .7 * 40$ (ignoring inflation) * 55% = 30.8 million. A loss of 10 million, plus whatever they paid for getting their rights back plus the total cost of porting, say at least another 5 million(??).

Additionally those people on console who bought the old game are a large slice of the console gamers who are interested at all in a game like 7D2D, except for younger gamers who are starting the hobby now. So yes, there will be more sales, but that would already be the long tail, and likely only at reduced prices.

Those are just wildly guessed numbers. TFP will have done a similar calculation. It would make no sense to do a console port with these terms and it would normally endanger any developer of such a size as the money from previous games is needed to finance the next games and also keep the company alive when the next game or games fail.

In short: Console gamers would have either gotten a new game at the current terms or no game at all. No matter if you think TFP is responsible for something or not.

 

[HammerDano]

There is a far gap between "They made mistakes **in hindsight** when brokering a deal" and "They are responsible for what happened and need to make retributions". They were not responsible for the bankruptcy and they should not have to pay through their noses for it when they did not cause the bankruptcy. They also (as far as we know) were finanically hurt by the bankruptcy just like console gamers got hurt by a patch not coming that was dearly needed.

If Telltale had lost a lot of money because they ported 7D2D to console then we could maybe argue that TFP was partly responsible for the crash of Telltale, but it seems to have been one of the few games that still made money for Telltale.

Even if we were to agree that TFP, because they made mistakes at that time, should now have some responsibility to the console gamers, they are not suddenly responsible for the whole damages. I don't see why they should practically feel responsible to reimburse 100% of the damages incurred to the console gamers. Certainly the law has no provision like that, neither do I see a moral right that would go further than a deduction, simply because the alternative would in my estimation be almost suicide. In my view the deduction was necessary, but not really as a reparation by a guilty party.

 Some thoughts about the financial side of this:

tldr; Giving out the game for free would be a major financial loss for TFP and probably would kill at least their next project or projects with it.

When I do the math then I really don't see how they could afford to give the game for free to everyone who got it already. When I hear about some licence deal the usual percentage the licensee gets is somewhere in the range of 1 and 20% of every sale. Because often distribution already gets about 30% or more of each sale, in this case with the console companies I would expect more as they cross-finance their hardware through their cut, the publisher wants his cut as well for publishing and porting (through Iron Galaxy), there are taxes to deduct, maybe even more costs I didn't think of. Now with the new port to console TFP would need to pay everyone of those mentioned above (the new publisher instead of telltale and Sony or Microsoft) their expected cut from the sale if they wanted to give the game free to previous owners. Neither Sony, Microsoft or the new publisher have any reason at all to give out something for free, they want to earn money, right? So TFP would have to pay out of its own pockets.

So lets say they actually got 25% of each sale of the old version, they invested the money so inflation doesn't matter to our thought experiment, 70% of old owners speak up to get a copy of the new game for free (who wouldn't?). Sonysoft will want their cut, 30%, the publisher wants say 15%, and probably taxes should be on top (?). It comes to say 55%.

25%- 0.7*55% = -38.5%  . This would be the total loss per console game Telltale sold.

If there were say 2 million sales of the old game at 40$ each (totally made up numbers) it would have made 2 million *40 *25% = 20 million. To give away the game for free now they would now have to pay 2 million * .7 * 40$ (ignoring inflation) * 55% = 30.8 million. A loss of 10 million, plus whatever they paid for getting their rights back plus the total cost of porting, say at least another 5 million(??).

Additionally those people on console who bought the old game are a large slice of the console gamers who are interested at all in a game like 7D2D, except for younger gamers who are starting the hobby now. So yes, there will be more sales, but that would already be the long tail, and likely only at reduced prices.

Those are just wildly guessed numbers. TFP will have done a similar calculation. It would make no sense to do a console port with these terms and it would normally endanger any developer of such a size as the money from previous games is needed to finance the next games and also keep the company alive when the next game or games fail.

In short: Console gamers would have either gotten a new game at the current terms or no game at all. No matter if you think TFP is responsible for something or not.

thank you...but, how does that answer the questions I asked?  

 

[Dead Smarty]

thank you...but, how does that answer the questions I asked?  

So your real question is why people are hostile I presume?
If that's the case, the answere is painfull and simple: Welcome to the internet, where everyone can have his or her say hidden behind miles of glasfiber and copperwire.
So if you want a serious conversation you need to filter everything you see and know when to stop responding, use the same filter on everything you say or speak out freely and prepare for shots being returned. Your last topic derailed completely as you stumbled right into the dei-trap instead of ignoring it and going for content of other posts. That, combined with a kind of agreesive topic title and you being quit persistent, can trigger irritated reactions wich can easily be mistaken for agression. Keep in mind that others might feel just the same about YOUR reaction.

In case I got lost and your actual question was about being misled or scammed:
I'm afraid you are asking for something impossible. As none of us in here was involved in these deals no one has acces to all details.
Dealing with publishers and platform holders is never in the best interest of gamers nor devs. In the end it is just busines wich is just as reliable as politics and just as beneficial for the laymen.
Also keep in mind what I tried to highlight before: 7D2D is an unfinished project and development is an organic system wich can (and most likely will) change over time., not all initial intentions will be realized and some new ones may. The moment third parties are getting involved all bets are off...
If you want exactly what is "prommised", never get into pre-orders, beta's or early acces but wait for the definitive edition.

(Just to be clear: I'm not a PC gamer. I choose the PS platform for comfort and simplicity a few years ago but learned by now that Sony is just a busines, relying on the imaturity of it's main adience.)

 

[HammerDano]

So your real question is why people are hostile I presume?
If that's the case, the answere is painfull and simple: Welcome to the internet, where everyone can have his or her say hidden behind miles of glasfiber and copperwire.
So if you want a serious conversation you need to filter everything you see and know when to stop responding, use the same filter on everything you say or speak out freely and prepare for shots being returned. Your last topic derailed completely as you stumbled right into the dei-trap instead of ignoring it and going for content of other posts. That, combined with a kind of agreesive topic title and you being quit persistent, can trigger irritated reactions wich can easily be mistaken for agression. Keep in mind that others might feel just the same about YOUR reaction.

In case I got lost and your actual question was about being misled or scammed:
I'm afraid you are asking for something impossible. As none of us in here was involved in these deals no one has acces to all details.
Dealing with publishers and platform holders is never in the best interest of gamers nor devs. In the end it is just busines wich is just as reliable as politics and just as beneficial for the laymen.
Also keep in mind what I tried to highlight before: 7D2D is an unfinished project and development is an organic system wich can (and most likely will) change over time., not all initial intentions will be realized and some new ones may. The moment third parties are getting involved all bets are off...
If you want exactly what is "prommised", never get into pre-orders, beta's or early acces but wait for the definitive edition.

(Just to be clear: I'm not a PC gamer. I choose the PS platform for comfort and simplicity a few years ago but learned by now that Sony is just a busines, relying on the imaturity of it's main adience.)

Thank you for taking the time,

There is no misdirection here, I meant what I wrote...the way it was written. 

If even PC gamers ON HERE believe that the console game was SOLD...even if that is people misspeaking...it should not trigger the MODERATORS (a name that should imply the job)

I am trying to show that they have been unreasonable.

If I was trying to get thru to the internet I'd agree...silly impossible task.

Maybe it still is.

I do understand what you are saying. I just disagree that we have to accept things the way they have been. ie the general rot of the industry or of peoples attitudes towards untruths.

*** No one was there and no one has the details. TFP were and they do have the details. 

I have a low opinion of TFP. Sorry, but, from my point of view they earned it.: they either sold the console version for the cash to finish the PC version or they signed a bad contract that did not protect the console gamer. People make mistakes...this one continues to be compounded by the Insult to injury, that they, TFP, won't talk to the console base.

They re-released this game: 7 Days to Die 1.0 CONSOLE EDITION to console... without doing any media...even one dev stream... just for the console players. 

they did three for PC and PC have never lost the game. (is it wrong to think that is f'd up?)

They have made so many false predictions about timelines PC gamers think it is cute and funny...that's just who TFP are.

When was this game supposed to be finished? they thought they'd be done in 2019. how many times did they say they were close?  even that last bit...how many times they did say they were close to done was a lie in my opinion...THEY ARE STILL NOT CLOSE...the roadmap IS the rest of the game...and they had to farm out the work to someone else. How much work?  How much, is the stuff, TFP have never been able to do themselves, on the PC development side? Did they make the timeline for how long it should take to do the work they can't? I ask, because, they are bad at judging how long it takes to do the stuff they can do. ie "sooner than you think". That was first posted on Sept 18th...it is December 5th. We won't have it until the patch goes stable...maybe before x-mas maybe after. Storm's Brewing has been delayed until next year...should I just start making excuses NOW why december next year is an acceptable time delay?

These are the kind of things that lead me to believe the Moderators should be a little less hostile to those who don't think the sun rises and sets on TFP.

but, apparently, they don't want to clear the air.

 

[bdubyah]

Not really sure how much more I wanna bother with this conversation as you just deflect and move on to complaining about something else. I don't think even TFP coming into this thread and telling you every single detail about everything would be enough. You'd just complain about something else.

I have a low opinion of TFP. Sorry, but, from my point of view they earned it.: they either sold the console version for the cash to finish the PC version or they signed a bad contract that did not protect the console gamer. People make mistakes...this one continues to be compounded by the Insult to injury, that they, TFP, won't talk to the console base.

When I say they sold the rights to the console version to TellTale, that's what I meant. Rather they sold them, licensed them, whatever, semantics as far as I'm concerned. You say TFP made a bad contract but maybe you should realize that's just how it works. You've never saw a dev studio lose an IP they created due to breaking away from a certain publisher? The Souls series is an example I know. There's a reason the original game was called Demon's Souls, but the sequels are called Dark Souls. That's because Sony published the first one and owns the rights to it. Those types of deals happen all the time. That's how devs get money. But oh no, TFP did the same thing as everyone else? Those morons! Please, use your brain. You not understanding how things work isn't TFP's fault. If I was TFP I wouldn't wanna talk to you guys either. Lol. They don't owe you an explanation. You don't work for them, you don't own stake in their company. Buying a copy of their game does not entitle you to anything other than the game you got.

They re-released this game: 7 Days to Die 1.0 CONSOLE EDITION to console... without doing any media...even one dev stream... just for the console players. 

they did three for PC and PC have never lost the game. (is it wrong to think that is f'd up?)

Why on earth would they do separate streams when it is the same game? They discussed console in the lead up and during the streams. What else would want them to do?

I do understand what you are saying. I just disagree that we have to accept things the way they have been. ie the general rot of the industry or of peoples attitudes towards untruths.

What untruths? Just because you think lies have happened because you seem to have you tinfoil hat too tight doesn't mean they actually happened. This type of ignorance that is commonly displayed from the console side is exactly why the hostility you've seen exists. But don't worry, I call out the same types when they show up on the PC side as well, like the jar whiners, or whatever else people wanna needlessly cry over.

They have made so many false predictions about timelines PC gamers think it is cute and funny...that's just who TFP are.

When was this game supposed to be finished? they thought they'd be done in 2019. how many times did they say they were close?  even that last bit...how many times they did say they were close to done was a lie in my opinion...THEY ARE STILL NOT CLOSE...the roadmap IS the rest of the game...and they had to farm out the work to someone else. How much work?  How much, is the stuff, TFP have never been able to do themselves, on the PC development side? Did they make the timeline for how long it should take to do the work they can't? I ask, because, they are bad at judging how long it takes to do the stuff they can do. ie "sooner than you think". That was first posted on Sept 18th...it is December 5th. We won't have it until the patch goes stable...maybe before x-mas maybe after. Storm's Brewing has been delayed until next year...should I just start making excuses NOW why december next year is an acceptable time delay?

Why do you care so much? We've gotten free updates to the game the entire time. It isn't like you bought the game but can't play it. Also, do you know how many devs TFP have? This isn't Bethesda or something. You are really hung up on the whole "sooner than you think" thing, huh? Must be miserable to be so upset over something that small. 1.2 went into EXP so probably within a few weeks you'll have RWG and crossplay. I'd almost guarantee it goes stable before Christmas. But if it doesn't, who cares? TFP have always said "It's done when it's done." I'd much rather that than sending up half cooked updates. Curious what you will turn your attention towards after that. Bandits? Weather? Other things that are coming for free and will make the game better but totally aren't stopping you from enjoying what you have now?

 

[Dead Smarty]

*** No one was there and no one has the details. TFP were and they do have the details.

That is completely correct. The point is that moderators are not TFP and even if they were, a moderators function is not the same as a busines negotiator. Even if the function is done by the same person.

Another thing is that platformholders have a say in this situation as well. Maybe you remember the Cyberpunk issues? When CDPR announced refunds, Sony replied with delisting their game. Not for the reason it was a buggy mess but only because it costed them their 30% cut. TFP can't just do what they want if they want the game on that platform and Xbox is no saint either.
So if Sony had any license deals with TT you bet they renegotiated them with TFP. But for us here it is only guessing how it realy went down unless some shareholders are willing to spill some beans.
As far as I knew when I got into this game TFP is first and for all a PC game developper so we have to consider it a service they even took the efford to keep supporting it instead of just pulling the plug like other devs sometimes do.

Also I think you are a bit too easy on creating a them/us narative. No one likes to get screwed, PC or consoles does not matter.

 

[HammerDano]

Not really sure how much more I wanna bother with this conversation as you just deflect and move on to complaining about something else. I don't think even TFP coming into this thread and telling you every single detail about everything would be enough. You'd just complain about something else.

this is the first time you have participated in this thread...accusing me of deflecting and not answering is some cute projection.

When I say they sold the rights to the console version to TellTale, that's what I meant. Rather they sold them, licensed them, whatever, semantics as far as I'm concerned. You say TFP made a bad contract but maybe you should realize that's just how it works. You've never saw a dev studio lose an IP they created due to breaking away from a certain publisher? The Souls series is an example I know. There's a reason the original game was called Demon's Souls, but the sequels are called Dark Souls. That's because Sony published the first one and owns the rights to it. Those types of deals happen all the time. That's how devs get money. But oh no, TFP did the same thing as everyone else? Those morons! Please, use your brain. You not understanding how things work isn't TFP's fault. If I was TFP I wouldn't wanna talk to you guys either. Lol. They don't owe you an explanation. You don't work for them, you don't own stake in their company. Buying a copy of their game does not entitle you to anything other than the game you got.

It matters IF they sold or licensed the game. A lot of console gamers have accused TFP of using us for the capital to work on the PC version. including this re-release.

You PC gamers would not have this game without our money. You seem to forget that a lot.

Why on earth would they do separate streams when it is the same game? They discussed console in the lead up and during the streams. What else would want them to do?

What untruths? Just because you think lies have happened because you seem to have you tinfoil hat too tight doesn't mean they actually happened. This type of ignorance that is commonly displayed from the console side is exactly why the hostility you've seen exists. But don't worry, I call out the same types when they show up on the PC side as well, like the jar whiners, or whatever else people wanna needlessly cry over.

why would they do any media for the people that got abandoned? I don't know...maybe to answer some questions. Yes, some of those would have been hostile...some of them would have been to question why they were rushing to relaunch with soo many things not ready for console. maybe we would want to know that the roadmap is not just a @%$#ing joke.

Why do you care so much? We've gotten free updates to the game the entire time. It isn't like you bought the game but can't play it. Also, do you know how many devs TFP have? This isn't Bethesda or something. You are really hung up on the whole "sooner than you think" thing, huh? Must be miserable to be so upset over something that small. 1.2 went into EXP so probably within a few weeks you'll have RWG and crossplay. I'd almost guarantee it goes stable before Christmas. But if it doesn't, who cares? TFP have always said "It's done when it's done." I'd much rather that than sending up half cooked updates. Curious what you will turn your attention towards after that. Bandits? Weather? Other things that are coming for free and will make the game better but totally aren't stopping you from enjoying what you have now?

The game is good the developers are slimey...is that a good enough answer for why do I care? why do you care?

You have gotten free updates...thank console guys for some of them...it was our money too. 

True, we bought the game, and we get to use most of it...but, not all of it.

Personally I have played all of the 6 and 8k provided maps...if you randomly respawned on those maps I could probably get a few more playthroughs out of them, but, you don't, you spawn in the same place every time.

"Sooner than you think" was posted on Sept 18th...I didn't make them say it...it is now Dec 5th...we still don't actually have the update...but, we can see it should be "soon".  Well...that is the end of Q4. So why did they bother to say anything in Sept at all? or again in October? You don't see over hyping as lying...you don't see severely underestimating the timeline for development as repeatedly lying. You simultaneously don't think they "owe" console anything while also seeing the justification for why "we" deserve to be treated like @%$#s. 

What will I complain about next? probably the same thing...morons who will excuse anything TFP don't manage to get done...and/or the ridiculous amount of time that it is still taking them to finish a game they said they said in 2021 that they'd be embarrassed to still be working on in three years.

 

[bdubyah]

this is the first time you have participated in this thread...accusing me of deflecting and not answering is some cute projection.

This is the same thread as the one you had closed. Stop playing.

It matters IF they sold or licensed the game. A lot of console gamers have accused TFP of using us for the capital to work on the PC version. including this re-release.

You PC gamers would not have this game without our money. You seem to forget that a lot.

It really doesn't. The point is they handed off development and publishing to another company for a cut. Call it selling, call it licensing. Doesn't really matter. And we PC gamers would absolutely have this game with or without console. From what I can find, of the ~18m copies sold, ~12m are from Steam alone. PC would still be fine, and at this point i'd argue better off, without the console experiment. So nothing to forget. You aren't as important as you think.

why would they do any media for the people that got abandoned? I don't know...maybe to answer some questions. Yes, some of those would have been hostile...some of them would have been to question why they were rushing to relaunch with soo many things not ready for console. maybe we would want to know that the roadmap is not just a @%$#ing joke.

What questions? You think they would sit on a livestream and go into legal details about what happened? Specifically, what questions would you like to have seen them answer that they didn't? And be realistic.

The game is good the developers are slimey...is that a good enough answer for why do I care? why do you care?

You have gotten free updates...thank console guys for some of them...it was our money too. 

Again, we would've gotten the same updates, and likely faster, without console. So no thanks to give. Sorry.

True, we bought the game, and we get to use most of it...but, not all of it.

Personally I have played all of the 6 and 8k provided maps...if you randomly respawned on those maps I could probably get a few more playthroughs out of them, but, you don't, you spawn in the same place every time.

And this part is now in testing by your PC users, so thank us for helping test the game all these years you've been behind. You're welcome.

"Sooner than you think" was posted on Sept 18th...I didn't make them say it...it is now Dec 5th...we still don't actually have the update...but, we can see it should be "soon".  Well...that is the end of Q4. So why did they bother to say anything in Sept at all? or again in October? You don't see over hyping as lying...you don't see severely underestimating the timeline for development as repeatedly lying. You simultaneously don't think they "owe" console anything while also seeing the justification for why "we" deserve to be treated like @%$#s.

Here we go again. I'd imagine they basically meant sooner as in "no part of the Storms Brewing update" sooner, but sure, keep crying over a few words that apparently ruined your life. Yeesh. The horse is nothing but a pile of mush at this point. Let it go. Over hyping? Really? You've gotta just be trolling at this point. You are delusional at best.

What will I complain about next? probably the same thing...morons who will excuse anything TFP don't manage to get done...and/or the ridiculous amount of time that it is still taking them to finish a game they said they said in 2021 that they'd be embarrassed to still be working on in three years.

I think you made a mistake buying the new version. You obviously just need to go find another game to play. It's kind of sad really that you think so little of TFP yet still gave them your money(again!) but hate everything. STALKER 2 has been fun, maybe give it a try?

 

[HammerDano]

That is completely correct. The point is that moderators are not TFP and even if they were, a moderators function is not the same as a busines negotiator. Even if the function is done by the same person.

Another thing is that platformholders have a say in this situation as well. Maybe you remember the Cyberpunk issues? When CDPR announced refunds, Sony replied with delisting their game. Not for the reason it was a buggy mess but only because it costed them their 30% cut. TFP can't just do what they want if they want the game on that platform and Xbox is no saint either.
So if Sony had any license deals with TT you bet they renegotiated them with TFP. But for us here it is only guessing how it realy went down unless some shareholders are willing to spill some beans.
As far as I knew when I got into this game TFP is first and for all a PC game developper so we have to consider it a service they even took the efford to keep supporting it instead of just pulling the plug like other devs sometimes do.

Also I think you are a bit too easy on creating a them/us narative. No one likes to get screwed, PC or consoles does not matter.

I agree....Moderators are not TFP...they often speak as if they posses inside information, but, they are really just fans who moderate. Some of them have been here since the beginning. They are more often superfan than moderate.

I agree that the situation could be a lot more confuddled than we know...it could also be simpler but no one goes there first. lol

I started following this game before the first console launch, and yup, back then they proudly proclaimed they were "PC gamers making PC games for PC people". 

How silly of me...I took them at their word. They also thought their game really wouldn't work on the inferior old gen consoles. (ps they also don't think the current gen are good enough)

I don't think we owe them thanks for putting this on console. It is the opposite...they owe console for keeping their dream alive.

The console vs pc narrative already existed...it is just especially bad around this game. They can't admit that 7dtd would have died without our money.

 

[HammerDano]

This is the same thread as the one you had closed. Stop playing.

It really doesn't. The point is they handed off development and publishing to another company for a cut. Call it selling, call it licensing. Doesn't really matter. And we PC gamers would absolutely have this game with or without console. From what I can find, of the ~18m copies sold, ~12m are from Steam alone. PC would still be fine, and at this point i'd argue better off, without the console experiment. So nothing to forget. You aren't as important as you think.

They were PC gamers making PC games for PC people, they thought the last gen consoles were too inferior for their game. so why did they do the deal with Telltale? 

Those sales numbers you are playing with...I have said before I would love to see solid numbers, because pre original console launch they said 1.5 million PC copies sold...after console release those numbers went up to 16 million...and stayed there....and stayed there... I would love to see the real numbers.

Even with your numbers you are saying that og console bought 6 million copies...over what... 2 years?...that ain't rabbit feed.

So you may want to rethink using those numbers to support your arguments as none of us has "good" data on that.

What questions? You think they would sit on a livestream and go into legal details about what happened? Specifically, what questions would you like to have seen them answer that they didn't? And be realistic.

I would have asked what their deal with Telltale was. I would have asked : given your poor performance record, meeting self imposed deadlines, why should anyone believe you are capable of following the roadmap? Why are you releasing this back to console without RWG or crossplay? Now crossplay I will give a small break because that is something they have to get approved...but RWG?

Your favorite TFP saying is, it's done when it's done, so why did it HAVE TO release prematurely?

You don't get to have it both ways...it doesn't release until it is ready except when it's for console? on a re-release to and for console.

Again, we would've gotten the same updates, and likely faster, without console. So no thanks to give. Sorry.

And this part is now in testing by your PC users, so thank us for helping test the game all these years you've been behind. You're welcome.

There's no way you actually believe this...either part. 

you want me to believe that the guys who had no experience or interest in console games...who think that consoles are too inferior, suddenly felt moved to provide us with a game? Out of the goodness of their hearts, and, they did  not care they were screwing the PC guys they built themselves up off of...they were going to make sure they gave everyone a good enough game...not fast...and not as good as it could have been, but, that's what happened? 

Here we go again. I'd imagine they basically meant sooner as in "no part of the Storms Brewing update" sooner, but sure, keep crying over a few words that apparently ruined your life. Yeesh. The horse is nothing but a pile of mush at this point. Let it go. Over hyping? Really? You've gotta just be trolling at this point. You are delusional at best.

I think you made a mistake buying the new version. You obviously just need to go find another game to play. It's kind of sad really that you think so little of TFP yet still gave them your money(again!) but hate everything. STALKER 2 has been fun, maybe give it a try?

So we'll get it at the end of Q4...without the Storm's Brewing update....maybe a little later if they can't go stable before their xmas vacation.

When you start saying something will happen "sooner than you think" in September....and it doesn't come to pass until the end of a self imposed deadline three @%$#ing months later...you have over hyped. How am I wrong about that?

 

[bdubyah]

They were PC gamers making PC games for PC people, they thought the last gen consoles were too inferior for their game. so why did they do the deal with Telltale? 

Those sales numbers you are playing with...I have said before I would love to see solid numbers, because pre original console launch they said 1.5 million PC copies sold...after console release those numbers went up to 16 million...and stayed there....and stayed there... I would love to see the real numbers.

Even with your numbers you are saying that og console bought 6 million copies...over what... 2 years?...that ain't rabbit feed.

So you may want to rethink using those numbers to support your arguments as none of us has "good" data on that.

I never said console didn't sell well. But I've checked as many sites as I can find and all say Steam is right around 12m. Which is plenty enough to support development. SO trying to say they needed console is just silly. They didn't. At all.

I would have asked what their deal with Telltale was. I would have asked : given your poor performance record, meeting self imposed deadlines, why should anyone believe you are capable of following the roadmap? Why are you releasing this back to console without RWG or crossplay? Now crossplay I will give a small break because that is something they have to get approved...but RWG?

Your favorite TFP saying is, it's done when it's done, so why did it HAVE TO release prematurely?

You don't get to have it both ways...it doesn't release until it is ready except when it's for console? on a re-release to and for console.

And I can 100% guarantee you they would have ignored those questions. They released it without those things so the nonstop complaining from console users would slow down. They've been getting pelted with complaints about it for years. Crossplay wasn't necessary to release the game, why would it be? PC has never had crossplay. RWG likely needed extra work to function properly on consoles due to ram constraints as that seems to be the common sticking point they run into: limited ram. RWG had been a hog on PC for the last several updates as well. You are the one saying they released the game prematurely, that doesn't make it a fact. Just your opinions. And again, they wanted to shut you guys up. Just go read any tweet they made over the last few years. Bunch of console users crying on every post. I'm sure TFP were sick of it, cause ya know, it wasn't their fault TellTale went belly up. Which you just flat out refuse to accept.

There's no way you actually believe this...either part. 

you want me to believe that the guys who had no experience or interest in console games...who think that consoles are too inferior, suddenly felt moved to provide us with a game? Out of the goodness of their hearts, and, they did  not care they were screwing the PC guys they built themselves up off of...they were going to make sure they gave everyone a good enough game...not fast...and not as good as it could have been, but, that's what happened?

I do. Console wasn't needed. But why wouldn't they put in some effort to potentially earn a lot more money? Why do you think they made the new version? I'm sure part of it is they felt they owed it to console users, which is why they gave you any discount to begin with. But again, it's a business. They knew there was a lot of money to be made. And what do you mean they were screwing PC guys? Do you think before you type, or just rabble off whatever pops into your head? They literally hired devs to assist on the new console version. I'm just not sure what part of any of this is too complicated for you to grasp. TellTale failed, so they brought it in house so they could control it, and look, it's way better than it was before. And they are just getting started with it. But keep being salty.

So we'll get it at the end of Q4...without the Storm's Brewing update....maybe a little later if they can't go stable before their xmas vacation.

When you start saying something will happen "sooner than you think" in September....and it doesn't come to pass until the end of a self imposed deadline three @%$#ing months later...you have over hyped. How am I wrong about that?

Because they never gave dates for when "sooner" was. There have been several pretty pressing bugs that have popped up on consoles that had to be fixed that likely took priority away from everything else for a bit. You just put a date in your head and then got angry for no reason. You act like your life depends on that update coming out. And the roadmap literally states dates can change. Welcome to TFP development. Love it or hate it, it is what it is. Only difference is PC is used to it while you guys are just getting started. It's just not something that bothers me, not sure why it bothers you so much. Go play something else, come back when it's ready. If that's too much to ask, move on.

Either way, I'm done. This is a waste of time. You just keep repeating the same garbage. You obviously feel a type of way and aren't gonna get over it, so good luck. Stay mad, or don't. I don't care.

 

[HammerDano]

I never said console didn't sell well. But I've checked as many sites as I can find and all say Steam is right around 12m. Which is plenty enough to support development. SO trying to say they needed console is just silly. They didn't. At all.

And I can 100% guarantee you they would have ignored those questions. They released it without those things so the nonstop complaining from console users would slow down. They've been getting pelted with complaints about it for years. Crossplay wasn't necessary to release the game, why would it be? PC has never had crossplay. RWG likely needed extra work to function properly on consoles due to ram constraints as that seems to be the common sticking point they run into: limited ram. RWG had been a hog on PC for the last several updates as well. You are the one saying they released the game prematurely, that doesn't make it a fact. Just your opinions. And again, they wanted to shut you guys up. Just go read any tweet they made over the last few years. Bunch of console users crying on every post. I'm sure TFP were sick of it, cause ya know, it wasn't their fault TellTale went belly up. Which you just flat out refuse to accept.

I do. Console wasn't needed. But why wouldn't they put in some effort to potentially earn a lot more money? Why do you think they made the new version? I'm sure part of it is they felt they owed it to console users, which is why they gave you any discount to begin with. But again, it's a business. They knew there was a lot of money to be made. And what do you mean they were screwing PC guys? Do you think before you type, or just rabble off whatever pops into your head? They literally hired devs to assist on the new console version. I'm just not sure what part of any of this is too complicated for you to grasp. TellTale failed, so they brought it in house so they could control it, and look, it's way better than it was before. And they are just getting started with it. But keep being salty.

Because they never gave dates for when "sooner" was. There have been several pretty pressing bugs that have popped up on consoles that had to be fixed that likely took priority away from everything else for a bit. You just put a date in your head and then got angry for no reason. You act like your life depends on that update coming out. And the roadmap literally states dates can change. Welcome to TFP development. Love it or hate it, it is what it is. Only difference is PC is used to it while you guys are just getting started. It's just not something that bothers me, not sure why it bothers you so much. Go play something else, come back when it's ready. If that's too much to ask, move on.

Either way, I'm done. This is a waste of time. You just keep repeating the same garbage. You obviously feel a type of way and aren't gonna get over it, so good luck. Stay mad, or don't. I don't care.

 good riddance