Room for Improvement: Crafting/Looting Balance in 2.0

[Kosmic Kerman]

So far I have completed two play-throughs in 2.0 of the first 2-3 in game weeks. Save for Quality 1 pistols, hunting knifes, and wrenches, every tool or weapon I have used I have crafted. The other tools and weapons I have been able to loot have been completely underwhelming. Everything else has been items which are functionally useless because I can either craft a better quality or tier of those items or they are inferior to a Q1 pistol and hunting knife.

The disparity between what I am able to craft and what I can loot became immediately apparent when I started running into radiated zombies in POIs. Up to this point I had no problem dealing with ferals in POIs or at night. In the last POI I did, I faced 4 radiated soldiers and a feral wight with a Q6 steel spear and a Q1 pistol. It did not go well. The POI made it tricky to kite the zombies and I wasn't able to put sustained damage on the rads to thin their number. I managed to get the wight to run over a landmine but the radiated soliders kept dodging them. Ultimatley, I ran out of stamina at the wrong time and that was all she wrote.

When thinking about how to handle the situation better in the future, it occurred to me that I was hard-locked into subpar ranged weapons. I can't craft meaningfully better ranged weapons, I can't loot better weapons following the ordinary progression, and the crap weapons available from the traders would not have helped either. In my opinion the balance between craftable and lootable weapons seems completely out of whack. It does not feel good that I am pretty much stuck to the weapons I can craft. While I may get lucky at a trader, this does not solve the progression problems I am facing. It is also boring to be stuck to the ranged weapons you can craft.

I think TFP needs to take a hard look at the loot tables if they want this game to be about both looting and crafting. There are also some rough spots in the progression curve that need smoothing. Either the gamestage of POIs needs to be toned down to match the loot that is available to the player or the loot tables need to be more generous. It would also be way more enjoyable to loot an AK or pump shotgun than to have to keep buying books from the trader in the hopes of crafting a Q1 ranged weapon that might give me a fighting chance against radiated zombies.

My experience in 2.0 in this regard is pretty much identical to that in 1.0. It's unfortunate that these rough edges have not been polished yet.

 

[Riamus]

Heh. There is no pleasing everyone. Before this, this same post could be reworded to say that crafting is not keeping up with looting. People were complaining about that often. Now, when TFP made changes that benefit crafting, looters complain. Don't get me wrong, I'm a looter and I don't like the loot caps, so will likely turn them off in the options. But it is a good view on how you can't please everyone.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Heh. There is no pleasing everyone. Before this, this same post could be reworded to say that crafting is not keeping up with looting. People were complaining about that often. Now, when TFP made changes that benefit crafting, looters complain. Don't get me wrong, I'm a looter and I don't like the loot caps, so will likely turn them off in the options. But it is a good view on how you can't please everyone.

I think there is a balance to be had which TFP are far from. Pre 1.0 by the time you could craft something you would have already looted better items or gotten them from a trader reward. Now, you won't be looting anything of value until very, very deep into the game. Every single weapon or tool I am currently looting gets chucked because it is stone or pipe, meanwhile I have a purple pickaxe and a purple spear.

Since 1.0 the game has largely become craft only until it doesn't matter anymore. And with armor magazines being substantially rarer in 2.0, the problem of being stuck using only the weapons you perked into is greatly exacerbated compared to 1.0. It takes much, much longer to get a high level nerd outfit to speed up gaining levels in crafting skills you do not perk into.

A better balance would be being able to craft items you perk into and loot low quality t1/t2 items in other attribute trees. For example, if I perk into pistols and knifes I would be able to loot Q1 shotguns, AKs, etc. but I would have to craft pistols and knifes if I wanted higher quality versions of those items. Simply put I think you should be able to craft higher quality versions of the weapons and tools you perk into but you should able to loot non tier 0 versions of weapons you don't perk into in a timely fashion.

 

[ElCabong]

I don't follow your logic on you can't craft quality ranged weapons. I just quit my first playthrough with a quality 6 SMG in the workbench. I made a quality 6 9 mm, quality 6 crossbow, quality 6 compound bow. These are all within the agility spec. I looted a quality level 5 assault rifle in the snow biome. Are you trying to use weapons you're not specing in?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I don't follow your logic on you can't craft quality ranged weapons. I just quit my first playthrough with a quality 6 SMG in the workbench. I made a quality 6 9 mm, quality 6 crossbow, quality 6 compound bow. These are all within the agility spec. I looted a quality level 5 assault rifle in the snow biome. Are you trying to use weapons you're not specing in?

I am not looking to loot a Q5 T2 weapon in the first 2-3 weeks of play. But I would like the game to have a natural progression and for looting to keep pace with the types of zombies you face. I would like to loot low quality t1/t2 weapons and tools that I don't have perk points in before I can craft them. I have a Q6 steel spear and Q6 steel pick axe. The only thing I currently loot is stone and pipe weapons but I run into radiated zombies in POIs. The balance is off.

I did not care for the looting/crafting balance in 1.0 and it has only gotten worse now that the armor progression is much slower. Personally, I don't find this fun and would like the ability to loot weapons and tools worth using in a timely fashion.

 

[Riamus]

Looting and crafting were actually fairly even in 1.x ... not perfect, but not bad. With loot caps, it has swung to crafting. With loot caps disabled, it is still pretty even. Armor magazines aren't really that rare. You just have to look in the right place now. Savage country crates will have them frequently.

 

[theFlu]

Armor magazines aren't really that rare.

I have the books to make an smg, and my first piece of armor. I'm missing ~70 steel for the SMG and any reason to craft the armor (already looted a "set that'll do just as well").

I dunno. Is nice to be getting what I specced for, but getting only what I specced for feels wrong.

 

[meganoth]

I remember balance between looting and crafting being pretty good the last alphas as well. (Only the trader was still somewhat too good). Naturally that means a cap worth its name would destabilize that balance again.

A few questions to @Kosmic Kerman :

1) Were you still in the forest or did you progress to the next biome already? If in the forest, was it somehow too early to try to go into the next biome?

2) What POI was it that you encountered 4 radiated in? In what biome? Would you have seen radiated in all POIs or was that POI exceptional in that area?

3) Any non-default settings you used?

Post automatically merged: Jun 27, 2025

I don't follow your logic on you can't craft quality ranged weapons. I just quit my first playthrough with a quality 6 SMG in the workbench. I made a quality 6 9 mm, quality 6 crossbow, quality 6 compound bow. These are all within the agility spec. I looted a quality level 5 assault rifle in the snow biome. Are you trying to use weapons you're not specing in?

Without at least number of days (and whether vanilla default or not) a rather useless info-dump

 

[Suxar]

Simply put I think you should be able to craft higher quality versions of the weapons and tools you perk into but you should able to loot non tier 0 versions of weapons you don't perk into in a timely fashion.

Why do you need such a variety of weapons? I usually use 1 ranged weapon (spare) and 1 melee weapon (primary). And what quality the rest of the weapons fall to me does not matter, I most likely will not use them anyway. Perhaps I can create/find a rifle for hunting, since there is little meat left from a machine gun.

 

[ElCabong]

I remember balance between looting and crafting being pretty good the last alphas as well. (Only the trader was still somewhat too good). Naturally that means a cap worth its name would destabilize that balance again.

A few questions to @Kosmic Kerman :

1) Were you still in the forest or did you progress to the next biome already? If in the forest, was it somehow too early to try to go into the next biome?

2) What POI was it that you encountered 4 radiated in? In what biome? Would you have seen radiated in all POIs or was that POI exceptional in that area?

3) Any non-default settings you used?

Post automatically merged: Jun 27, 2025

Without at least number of days (and whether vanilla default or not) a rather useless info-dump

Normal difficulty and I forget how many days.

 

[binf_shinana]

Since the magazine system was implemented, crafting has always been absolutely dominant when I play. This is because I fully understand the specifications.

There are many Japanese 7dtd players like me, but many of them are newcomers who have just been released on PS5, and they are unaware of the possibility that magazines can be dominant. This is because they do not understand the specifications.
Even if I explain it to them, they don't understand, and they say they don't want to play in such a perversely efficient way.

So, unfortunately, I think that this kind of balance adjustment discussion will ultimately come down to personal preference.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I remember balance between looting and crafting being pretty good the last alphas as well. (Only the trader was still somewhat too good). Naturally that means a cap worth its name would destabilize that balance again.

A few questions to @Kosmic Kerman :

1) Were you still in the forest or did you progress to the next biome already? If in the forest, was it somehow too early to try to go into the next biome?

2) What POI was it that you encountered 4 radiated in? In what biome? Would you have seen radiated in all POIs or was that POI exceptional in that area?

3) Any non-default settings you used?

Post automatically merged: Jun 27, 2025

Without at least number of days (and whether vanilla default or not) a rather useless info-dump

Not Kosmic Kerman obviously, but I encountered rads in a T2 Infested Clear several times. Seems not entirely uncommon (but I've also found like 8 rad remover mods, so it's not really an issue.)

 

[elektrohund]

I have the books to make an smg, and my first piece of armor. I'm missing ~70 steel for the SMG and any reason to craft the armor (already looted a "set that'll do just as well").

I dunno. Is nice to be getting what I specced for, but getting only what I specced for feels wrong.

I think adding loot probability bonuses to magazines in the skill tree was a mistake. The loot prob bonuses for weapons, weapon parts and ammo works great because they in most cases only compete with other weapons in loot. In other words, speccing into clubs and shotguns reduce your odds of getting all other weapons, but never directly affected vehicles or elecrical stuff.
With magazines it's a bit different as they often come from book piles and mail boxes where they all share a common loot pool. The consequence of this, as many have pointed out, is that picking the spear skill will indirectly slow down your vehicle and work bench crafting skill progress.

Vehicles and work benches are such a core part of the game progression that I'm not even sure they fit into the mazine system at all. I can loot an AK, but I can't loot a motorcycle. They are not equal.

There are many Japanese 7dtd players like me, but many of them are newcomers who have just been released on PS5, and they are unaware of the possibility that magazines can be dominant. This is because they do not understand the specifications.
Even if I explain it to them, they don't understand, and they say they don't want to play in such a perversely efficient way.

I think this is very much a flaw of the system as it is unintuative and not so enjoyable for most people to play like this.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

I remember balance between looting and crafting being pretty good the last alphas as well. (Only the trader was still somewhat too good). Naturally that means a cap worth its name would destabilize that balance again.

A few questions to @Kosmic Kerman :

1) Were you still in the forest or did you progress to the next biome already? If in the forest, was it somehow too early to try to go into the next biome?

2) What POI was it that you encountered 4 radiated in? In what biome? Would you have seen radiated in all POIs or was that POI exceptional in that area?

3) Any non-default settings you used?

Post automatically merged: Jun 27, 2025

Without at least number of days (and whether vanilla default or not) a rather useless info-dump

It was a tier 4 military base in the forest. It's the POI with the basement bunker on the left and the wooden housing dormitory on the right. I have also seen radiated zombies in lower tier infested quests. Difficulty set to nomad but that's not really relevant here as my criticism is about game balance and not difficulty.

The balance is supposed to be a trade off between risk and reward but that is not the case when POIs spawn 4 rad soliders and a wight and offer stone and pipe tools and wepons in the loot room. What prompted me to post is the stark contrast between encountering multiple heavily armored radiated zombies while loot chests are dropping tier 0 loot. It also made me realize how limiting the early/mid game is. You are stuck using the weapons you perk into and craft and you will never get a hint of non-perked t1/t2 weapons until well after you can already craft those. For me, this feels incredibly limiting and quite frankly boring. I want the opportunity to use non-perked low-quality tier 1/tier 2 to 2 weapons before I can craft them.

I agree that 1.0 was an improvement because it incentivized you to craft your perked weapons and tools. But it swung too far the other way. The problem in prior alphas was that you never needed to craft. Now you are stuck with what you can craft. I had hoped this would be improved after 1.0's launch but it has only gotten worse with the slowing down of armor progression in 2.0.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Since the magazine system was implemented, crafting has always been absolutely dominant when I play. This is because I fully understand the specifications.

There are many Japanese 7dtd players like me, but many of them are newcomers who have just been released on PS5, and they are unaware of the possibility that magazines can be dominant. This is because they do not understand the specifications.
Even if I explain it to them, they don't understand, and they say they don't want to play in such a perversely efficient way.

So, unfortunately, I think that this kind of balance adjustment discussion will ultimately come down to personal preference.

I think this is somewhat true when it comes to non-weapon books but less so with your perked melee weapon. I have always found that I progress very quickly in the perked melee weapon and have to be efficient if I want to quickly progress other skills like tools, workstations, and vehicles. I usually play either perception or agility. When I go perception I get to Q6 steel spears in the first two weeks. When I go agility, I always end up with a machete and a Q6 pistol around Day 14. And even if you don't play as efficient you will still be able to craft iron/T1 level melee weapons while you are still looting stone ones. My workstation progress depends on whether I hold onto books and how lucky I am with which POIs spawn on the map. In my most current playthough I unlocked the crucible by around Day 15 through luck and efficient play. My progress in non-perked weapons, on the other hand, is always a crapshoot. And even with this I was always able to craft a tier 1, non-perked AK or shotgun before I loot them. And even when I start looting non-perked weapons I can almost always craft better quality ones save for some outliers.

 

[meganoth]

It was a tier 4 military base in the forest. It's the POI with the basement bunker on the left and the wooden housing dormitory on the right. I have also seen radiated zombies in lower tier infested quests. Difficulty set to nomad but that's not really relevant here as my criticism is about game balance and not difficulty.

I can imagine what TFP would be saying: This is a challenge similar to sudden dog hordes, glowies at night and going into higher biomes, and the skulls of a T4 should have been ample warning. Though it still sounds like too much that essentially end-game enemies are spawned as a group.

The balance is supposed to be a trade off between risk and reward but that is not the case when POIs spawn 4 rad soliders and a wight and offer stone and pipe tools and wepons in the loot room. What prompted me to post is the stark contrast between encountering multiple heavily armored radiated zombies while loot chests are dropping tier 0 loot. It also made me realize how limiting the early/mid game is. You are stuck using the weapons you perk into and craft and you will never get a hint of non-perked t1/t2 weapons until well after you can already craft those. For me, this feels incredibly limiting and quite frankly boring. I want the opportunity to use non-perked low-quality tier 1/tier 2 to 2 weapons before I can craft them.

I agree partly. The important detail in your story IMHO is that you were at q6 steel spear but not even past the toilet pistol because you could not find weapon parts (I assume). Or would you have been able to make a tier 1 perception rifle but just didn't do the necessary steps? Now granted, the hunting rifle doesn't seem to be a solution to anything, more like a black hole in the progression. Can you kill a radiated with it without a rad remover on nomad?

Though I want to repeat an important question, did you maybe stay too long in the forest? Would it maybe have made more sense to go into burned to find tier 1 weapons? I suspect TFP made loot caps specifically to limit forest to T0, burned to T1, desert to T2, and winter to T3. (■■■■, there is a tier missing for wasteland )

I agree that 1.0 was an improvement because it incentivized you to craft your perked weapons and tools. But it swung too far the other way. The problem in prior alphas was that you never needed to craft. Now you are stuck with what you can craft. I had hoped this would be improved after 1.0's launch but it has only gotten worse with the slowing down of armor progression in 2.0.

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2025

Normal difficulty and I forget how many days.

We don't need an exact number, even the approximate week would suffice

 

[murky water]

Looting and crafting were actually fairly even in 1.x ... not perfect, but not bad. With loot caps, it has swung to crafting. With loot caps disabled, it is still pretty even. Armor magazines aren't really that rare. You just have to look in the right place now. Savage country crates will have them frequently.

it didnt feel that way. i have been playing since april and havent crafted ANY tools or weapons since may because looting/buying has been more than sufficient. i am curious to see how my play will different now but i couldnt ever justify constructing my own kit outside of the primitive set for the challange points

 

[theFlu]

I suspect TFP made loot caps specifically to limit forest to T0, burned to T1, desert to T2, and winter to T3. (■■■■, there is a tier missing for wasteland )

They do somewhat line up from the start, you get some chance of getting the "next tier" at cap. (0.05 for T1 at LS 40.) Once you get the wasteland badge, even pine is up to 140, giving some chance (0.16) for T3s.

With the "biome loot stage" -buffs back, moving forward is useful in any case now... But, as his complaint is not getting what you didn't spec for; that's not really improved by higher loot levels. That's a books vs gear balance thing or some such.

 

[Riamus]

it didnt feel that way. i have been playing since april and havent crafted ANY tools or weapons since may because looting/buying has been more than sufficient. i am curious to see how my play will different now but i couldnt ever justify constructing my own kit outside of the primitive set for the challange points

That is how them being balanced works. You can do them both at close to the same time. So if you are a looter, you're going to be looting stuff and not need to craft. If you a crafter, you'll craft stuff without worrying about looting. Neither will be sufficiently easier or faster or better, so you can choose the one you prefer.

In 1.x, I could usually craft things at almost the same time I could find them. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later, depending on how quickly I found specific magazines, but still close. But it also depends on how you play and what your game settings are. If you set loot lower, your crafting will be slower (usually). If you set loot higher, your crafting will be faster. If you don't loot mailboxes and stuff as you come across them, your crafting will be slower. If you focus on running around town looting every mailbox and newsstand you can find, crafting will be faster. But if you're using default settings and scavenging or questing regularly and looting any mailboxes and newsstands you are near (you don't have to chase them down), then 1.x usually left crafting at about the same speed as looting. If you could loot a T3 Q1 weapon, you could usually also craft one.

With loot caps, crafting is going to be significantly faster, much like how looting was before 1.0. They've successfully unbalanced it again unless you disable biome hazards.

 

[Javabean867]

Meh, I craft what I spec into, and loot/buy everything else. I fi d it well balanced.

I like having a variety of ranged weapons that I switch between during hoard night so I use up all the ammo i find. So even low quality guns are useful.