Return glass jars to the game by reworking the mechanics of their extraction

[bloodmoth13]

Honestly I think i prefered glass jars though I don't really miss it, the vitamin pills are basically a full bar of water if you have a bucket or water source.

I haven't really had a problem with food or water this alpha other than crafting glue. I barely invest in few collectors.

I think the food systems need a rework, nothing huge but having distinct tiers of food and benefits of each tier would help.

I have a slogan that I think works as a guide for this game: survive, strive, thrive.

Survival should be the focus of the first few weeks then players should

Strive to build stronger bases, get better resources and food and weapons till they can

Thrive and eat the best food use the best defense's and defend themselves with the best weapons.

Weapon tiers work well with this model, pipe weapons are the epitome of desperate survival, the mid tier weapons with iron and basic fire arms is when you strive for more success and by the time you are at the final tier you are thriving.

Food on the other hand feels far more binary and it's hard to really value end game food, a stack of 100 grilled meat is only slightly worse than a few stacks of meat stew, you don't really feel far better with higher tier food.

Water is also binary.

I think a great tradeoff for food is health costs, lower tier food at the survival stage costing health is a great tradeoff, but dysentery is too big a risk imo, if you are desperate enough to eat unhealthy food you can't risk dysentery.

If dysentery were a debuff that could stack to 100 I think it would be better to play around, eat garbage food all day, 12 dysentery each time, get over 100, lose everything. Also add dysentery to zombie attacks and it's a better gamble, eat up to 99 dysentery thinking you are safe, get hit by a zombie and get stunned for a second as you @%$# yourself and lose half your food.

Early game antibiotics could work with this model too, something that can suppress infections or reverse it for a bit but not cure it and it takes HP away. Infections suck, especially when you have zero options to cope with it.

 

[binf_shinana]

この手の議論をする際、無限の食料と水を得られる自動販売機のことも考える必要があります。
通常このゲームではお金に困ることはほぼありません。お金の消費はリソースとして機能しているとは言い難いです。つまり食料と水は無限です。ゲーム開始時点でほぼサバイバルの問題は解決された状態です。
しかし、マルチプレイを考えると、少なすぎる在庫はプレイヤー同士の喧嘩の元になります（自動販売機にこそシークレットスタッシュが必要だったかもしれません）。

(Google Translation)

When discussing this sort of thing, you also need to think about vending machines that give you unlimited food and water.
Money is usually not a problem in this game. It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource. Food and water are infinite. At the start of the game, most of the survival issues have been resolved.
However, considering multiplayer, too little inventory can lead to fights between players (vending machines may need secret stashes).

 

[billdj12]

この手の議論をする際、無限の食料と水を得られる自動販売機のことも考える必要があります。
通常このゲームではお金に困ることはほぼありません。お金の消費はリソースとして機能しているとは言い難いです。つまり食料と水は無限です。ゲーム開始時点でほぼサバイバルの問題は解決された状態です。
しかし、マルチプレイを考えると、少なすぎる在庫はプレイヤー同士の喧嘩の元になります（自動販売機にこそシークレットスタッシュが必要だったかもしれません）。

(Google Translation)

When discussing this sort of thing, you also need to think about vending machines that give you unlimited food and water.
Money is usually not a problem in this game. It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource. Food and water are infinite. At the start of the game, most of the survival issues have been resolved.
However, considering multiplayer, too little inventory can lead to fights between players (vending machines may need secret stashes).

However, it is desirable to have alternative sources of water extraction.

After all, food can also be purchased from a merchant and vending machine, as well as found in containers in locations throughout the world.

However, food can also be obtained by hunting on animals, and by harvesting from the farm plot.  Alas, the water in this regard was deprived, which is sad.

(Google Translation)

しかしながら、代替の水抽出源を有することが望ましい。

結局のところ、食べ物は商人や自動販売機からも購入できるほか、マップ上の場所にあるコンテナからも購入できます。 ただし、食料は獲物を狩ったり、ベッドから収穫したりすることによっても入手できます。

残念ながら、この点で水が奪われてしまったのは悲しいことです。

 

[binf_shinana]

上記については同意します。
出現する飲料は汚水ばかりであり、「ドリンクが欲しいからドリンクスタンドに行く」という動機が薄れています。これは個人的におもしろくないと感じているところです。

ポストアポカリプス世界でジュースはすべて腐って汚水になっているはず、という考えがベースにあるのなら、シャムウェイクレートから出現するドリンクについても同様に対策するべきです。

(Google Translation)

I agree to the above.
The beverages that appear are only sewage, and the motivation to "go to the drink stand because I want a drink" is fading. This is where I personally find it uninteresting.

If your idea is that all juices in a post-apocalyptic world will be rotten wastewater, so should the drinks that emerge from the Shumway crate.

 

[AlexBLR]

I fall into the same idea: 





Jars should be returned back but only as a container without returning the ability to get the clean water easily by cooking on campfire. Just because it's a king of strange things, you getting not the raw water but a water with the container and after use the container it is disappear.  

Higher living days have higher water requirements and what you have now? Dews? Hey, we can build a moto, can do the electricity.. but we can not produce water using electricity? Just in-complete feature. At least need electric dew, and the filters... should have tiers and they should not be unlimited. Poor filter will gave you 30 jars of water and gone. S tier gave you 150 jars and disapear. No way to craft the filter, only buy or find. 

It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource

haha, this is was always my favorite source of brass. Just burn the money! 

I'm still confused, why they added so many brass in loot? Break the doors, burn the radiators, burn the money. Brass never was a problem.

 

[BFT2020]

I removed glass jars back in A20 and been happy since.

 

[meilodasreh]

yeah I re-moved glass jars back in too, and been happy since 

 

[Burialfaith]

"River water and snow are infected with a virus, which does not allow it to be colleted."

Greetings,
 

Viruses can’t be alive out of an host for more than 48h. One week at max maybe… (Google: virus half-life).

According to that point, since there are no fishes or living beings in the water there should be no viruses in the water. Maybe if there were plants in rivers / lake there could be viruses in the water… (Assuming zombie animals won’t need to drink water at all and contaminate it)…

Viruses in snow, ok… but how did ALL the snow got contaminated? Only a very small % of infection should be found in water made from snow (snow > murky water) and even then, water molecules aligning in frozen water would form small ice shard which most likely would break bigger particles like viruses protein’s cage (capsid) or even its DNA/RNA after enough time in the snow biome (below 0 degree celsius)… Maybe there could be a sign / poster that says “Don’t eat the yellow snow”! (Frank Zappa song).

Maybe bacterias living from plants could be the vector here? Or mushrooms / mycorrhiza.

Anyway, just came here to add that water from lake or river should be drinkable since glass jar are out. Makes no sense to have the head mod that allows to purify water, but not being able to drink from lake… Players have so much freedom in the game, but can’t drink straight from lake/rivers altought we can swim in them and have O2 gauge? ô.0

Makes no sense that players make guide on Steam suggesting to kill your character in order to reset food/water stats in early game…

So many complaints / meme about water jar can only make a point. Its not too late to bring them back before christmas!

B

 

[YourMirror]

Greetings,
 

Viruses can’t be alive out of an host for more than 48h. One week at max maybe… (Google: virus half-life).

According to that point, since there are no fishes or living beings in the water there should be no viruses in the water. Maybe if there were plants in rivers / lake there could be viruses in the water… (Assuming zombie animals won’t need to drink water at all and contaminate it)…

Viruses in snow, ok… but how did ALL the snow got contaminated? Only a very small % of infection should be found in water made from snow (snow > murky water) and even then, water molecules aligning in frozen water would form small ice shard which most likely would break bigger particles like viruses protein’s cage (capsid) or even its DNA/RNA after enough time in the snow biome (below 0 degree celsius)… Maybe there could be a sign / poster that says “Don’t eat the yellow snow”! (Frank Zappa song).

Maybe bacterias living from plants could be the vector here? Or mushrooms / mycorrhiza.

Anyway, just came here to add that water from lake or river should be drinkable since glass jar are out. Makes no sense to have the head mod that allows to purify water, but not being able to drink from lake… Players have so much freedom in the game, but can’t drink straight from lake/rivers altought we can swim in them and have O2 gauge? ô.0

Makes no sense that players make guide on Steam suggesting to kill your character in order to reset food/water stats in early game…

So many complaints / meme about water jar can only make a point. Its not too late to bring them back before christmas!

B

But, you CAN drink directly from a water source. So there is that.

 

[Riamus]

Greetings,
 

Viruses can’t be alive out of an host for more than 48h. One week at max maybe… (Google: virus half-life).

According to that point, since there are no fishes or living beings in the water there should be no viruses in the water. Maybe if there were plants in rivers / lake there could be viruses in the water… (Assuming zombie animals won’t need to drink water at all and contaminate it)…

Viruses in snow, ok… but how did ALL the snow got contaminated? Only a very small % of infection should be found in water made from snow (snow > murky water) and even then, water molecules aligning in frozen water would form small ice shard which most likely would break bigger particles like viruses protein’s cage (capsid) or even its DNA/RNA after enough time in the snow biome (below 0 degree celsius)… Maybe there could be a sign / poster that says “Don’t eat the yellow snow”! (Frank Zappa song).

Maybe bacterias living from plants could be the vector here? Or mushrooms / mycorrhiza.

Anyway, just came here to add that water from lake or river should be drinkable since glass jar are out. Makes no sense to have the head mod that allows to purify water, but not being able to drink from lake… Players have so much freedom in the game, but can’t drink straight from lake/rivers altought we can swim in them and have O2 gauge? ô.0

Makes no sense that players make guide on Steam suggesting to kill your character in order to reset food/water stats in early game…

So many complaints / meme about water jar can only make a point. Its not too late to bring them back before christmas!

B

As YourMirror said, you can drink directly from a water source like a lake or river.  You need an empty hand, stop and don't move for 1-2 seconds while aiming at the water and you will see it tell you to press E to drink.  Note that if the water is very shallow, it may be difficult to trigger the drink option.

 

[BFT2020]

Makes no sense that players make guide on Steam suggesting to kill your character in order to reset food/water stats in early game…

Players been doing that for awhile now, even before A21

Get infected, look 5 minutes for a cure, kill themselves to not have to deal with it

break a leg, don’t want to be slow, kill themselves

Gorge on food even when full, run out of food, kill themselves when they starve

Play a survival game, don’t want to deal with survival elements, kill themselves to not deal with it

The issue is not game mechanics, it’s players not wanting to have to deal with them

at this point, they should be honest with themselves and just mod out anything remotely associated with survival 

 

[YourMirror]

Players been doing that for awhile now, even before A21

Get infected, look 5 minutes for a cure, kill themselves to not have to deal with it

break a leg, don’t want to be slow, kill themselves

Gorge on food even when full, run out of food, kill themselves when they starve

Play a survival game, don’t want to deal with survival elements, kill themselves to not deal with it

The issue is not game mechanics, it’s players not wanting to have to deal with them

at this point, they should be honest with themselves and just mod out anything remotely associated with survival 

Way easier to just go and play minecraft.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

I look at most situations from the outside,and from both sides, to decide my options,
and what I want to do.

My thought is a bit off kilter from most. The removal of the jars, has made me think
of alternatives. I enjoy just playing the game with synchronicity, added dangers are
the entities. But moving about and exploring 67,108,864 square meters slows to a crawl
when tethered to a mandatory device.

First I felt like the player had taken the role of Tantalus and TFP had assumed the
role of Zeus. Sent to Hades always thirsty and hungry, but unable to attain either
comfort, but for the prior greed. So at first it felt like a punishment.

Then I felt like the player was indeed The Ancient Mariner, adrift in the ocean. Water
water everywhere and not a drop to drink. Not a punishment, but a matter of preparation
choices.

Finally I decided. What do I really like about the game? For me, survival is not in inventory
management, or hoarding like the forty thieves. Or becoming A demigod. It's just blending
of pre-existing and new elements into a single cohesive flow. "Feng Shui".

Since I deleted water bodies from my play-through since I started playing, I never paid it
much attention, as of a21 i decided to try the added mechanics to just to see the flow.

Alternative thoughts.
1 Make the dew collectors reactive to environment. ie. rain/snowfall.

2 Allow for a collection of 3 drinks, in the single model. That is the "average" needed per
day to not hear that guttural sound. This can be boiled and consumed win/win. , 1 slot,1 model.
This can work for either sedentary play, or role-play nomadic.

3 In the White River note, suggest to new players, Focus on kitchens and toilets, the two things
needed are a cooking pot and murky water. Also add it to the beginning trader inventory with
the "same" probability and pricing as the filter. Otherwise it just seems like the attempted
enforcing of an Imperial rule. This would allow for individual choices across a broader spectrum
of players. Yet, allow for stream lining mechanics.
 
4 If number three is used, add a side note, that you don't have to complete an entire poi in one
pass. In the first few days hit every kitchen you can, and visit the trader to see beginning inventory.
Survival is based on getting the necessities first. Stockpiling a distant second. Whose gonna
steal it anyway. Its just you, the animals, and the zombies. And all they want to eat is you.

Side Note: Edit the wasteland sound effects, remove the dog barking, If they are not being spawned. You don't
hear any Zombie sounds if they are turned off. I did my tests for this with no spawn, so i could see the
I/O of it all.  Oh and I actually saw that the campfire dims the flame when finished cooking. :thumb:

 

[keith82]

i think there is enough people who liked the glass bottle way of doing things to just maybe say ok we messed up and put it back in i mean after the first week water isn't a issue anyways or at least if you going to make water more difficult take filters off the traders and make them a craftable with materials equal to a chem station or forge. or maybe quadruple the filter cost if you spam collect cotton you can literally buy a filter on day 1 its to easy. 

 

[Riamus]

i think there is enough people who liked the glass bottle way of doing things to just maybe say ok we messed up and put it back in i mean after the first week water isn't a issue anyways or at least if you going to make water more difficult take filters off the traders and make them a craftable with materials equal to a chem station or forge. or maybe quadruple the filter cost if you spam collect cotton you can literally buy a filter on day 1 its to easy. 

They won't be back.  And for anyone who just *has* to have them, I saw a mod to add them back.  Personally, I see no value in having them and am glad they are gone.  That doesn't mean I think the dew collectors were a smart choice, but I still am glad the jars are gone.

 

[Burialfaith]

As YourMirror said, you can drink directly from a water source like a lake or river.  You need an empty hand, stop and don't move for 1-2 seconds while aiming at the water and you will see it tell you to press E to drink.  Note that if the water is very shallow, it may be difficult to trigger the drink option.

Nice thanks a lot for sharing this tip! It’d be nice if it was included amongst the 34 tips during the loading of a game…^^
 

Thank you!

B

 

[Funukemaguro]

Personally, I liked being able to draw muddy water from a water source with a glass jar because it was realistic for survival. But at the same time, the situation of being able to produce any amount of drinking water in large quantities simply by boiling it after fetching muddy water was too easy to secure drinking water for the world of the apocalypse.

Nevertheless, with the removal of the glass jars, the presence of water sources such as ponds and rivers from which water can no longer be drawn has become mere scenery or cumbersome terrain that must be swum across.
Nowadays, there are few advantages to living near a water source.

My idea is to bring back glass bottles to the game and create three types of water in the game:
"muddy water" from natural sources.

"boiled water" from boiling muddy water, which lowers the risk of dysentery but not to zero.
"clean water" collected by rainwater collectors, which is completely safe.
And like they can filter "boiled water" with disposable water purification filters or water purification tablets to make it "clean".

An additional idea I have suggested in the past, for resourceful players in the late game, is an electric water purifier that electrically pumps water from a water source, filters it, and turns "muddy" or "boiling" water into clean water.
It would be nice to have an efficient electric water purification system like this.
https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/34584-pumped-electric-water-purification-system/

(Original text)

個人的には、ガラス瓶で水源から泥水を汲めるのはサバイバル的にも現実的で好きだった。しかし同時に、泥水を汲んだ後に煮沸するだけでいくらでも飲み水が大量に作れるという状況は、終末の世界の飲料水確保としてはあまりに簡単すぎた。

とはいえ、ガラス瓶が撤去されたことで、水が汲めなくなった池や川といった水源の存在は、単なる風景や、泳いで渡らなければならない面倒な地形になってしまった。
現在では、水源の近くに住むメリットはほとんどない。

私のアイデアは、ゲームにガラス瓶を復活させ、ゲーム内に3種類の水を作ることだ：
天然の水源から汲んだ「泥水」。(赤痢のリスクが高い)

泥水を沸騰させた「沸騰水」。(赤痢のリスクはゼロにはならないが、低くなる。)
雨水収集機であつめた "きれいな水"。(完全に安全に飲める水)
そして、使い捨ての浄水フィルターや浄水タブレットで「沸騰水」をろ過して「きれいな水」にすることもできる。

あとはゲーム後半の資源に恵まれたプレーヤーのために、私が過去に提案した追加のアイデアは、水源から水を電気的に汲み上げてろ過し、「濁った」水や「沸騰した」水をきれいな水に変える電気浄水器だ。
このような効率的な電気浄水システムがあってもいいかもしれない。

 

[Funukemaguro]

上記については同意します。
出現する飲料は汚水ばかりであり、「ドリンクが欲しいからドリンクスタンドに行く」という動機が薄れています。これは個人的におもしろくないと感じているところです。

ポストアポカリプス世界でジュースはすべて腐って汚水になっているはず、という考えがベースにあるのなら、シャムウェイクレートから出現するドリンクについても同様に対策するべきです。

(Google Translation)

I agree to the above.
The beverages that appear are only sewage, and the motivation to "go to the drink stand because I want a drink" is fading. This is where I personally find it uninteresting.

If your idea is that all juices in a post-apocalyptic world will be rotten wastewater, so should the drinks that emerge from the Shumway crate.

たしかに、酒類ならまだしもジュースは腐っていそうだ。
腐敗していない飲料は、
木箱に入った飲み物：よく保存されており、腐敗を免れた。
放置されたバッグの中の飲み物：バッグを落とした生存者によって最近用意された可能性がある。
冷蔵庫の中の飲み物： 部屋の電気がついているため、冷蔵庫にも電気が通っており、保存が可能。
という解釈をしている。
が、「棚の中の飲み物」「コーヒーメーカーの中のコーヒー」「ウォーターサーバーの水」などは腐って汚水になっているに違いない。

(translated text)
Yes, if it's alcohol, the juice is still likely to spoil.
Drinks that have not decayed are,
Drinks in crates: well preserved and spared from spoilage.
Drinks in abandoned bags: may have been recently prepared by the survivor who dropped the bag.
Drinks in the refrigerator: The lights in the room are on, which means that the refrigerator is also electrified and can be stored.
This is my interpretation.
but the drinks in "drinks in the cupboard", "coffee in the coffee maker", "water from the water server", etc. must have rotted and become sewage.