PC Remove the absurd hyper-specialization in weapon-type perks

bow skills should give you abilitys when hitting key parts of the enemy, as well as preserving arrows more often. for example, at tier 3 unlock pinning shot, where you can keep a zed standing still for a second or two by hitting them in the leg.
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I can't agree here at all. In fact the proposed idea you just gave is the EXACT complaint most people have about the shotgun perk....there's no reason to aim for the leg...even with a knockdown/stun/pin.
It's also the exact problem TFP are having...there just aren't enough unique "things" to give to each weapon type (or those things SHOULD BE ON THE WEAPON, NOT A PERK!)...you want to give a pin or stun to bows? shotguns already do that. why make different weapon perks do the same thing?

the problem is alot of perks are kinda meh, kinda eh, or holy hell this is the way to go. case and point, heavy metal. with it, i am now reliably clearing irradiated houses that before, i needed guns to breach and clear into. ive heard other perks are realy good, but for me i am now sticking with my flaming hammer of eradication. :p
verity is the spice of life, as such, it should be key that each skill is made unique and good in its own right. hell, just change up the marksman skill to only count for head-shots. chaining headshots together (even if it doesnt kill the enemy) to increase damage. there, job done. suddenly it becomes a viable contender.

alot of simple changes can make the weaker skills more stronger. specialisation isn't a problem, its when that specialisation gives you nothing in return.
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Specialization IS the problem, because the combat system is too simplistic to support it.

There is NO reason to incentivize shooting ANYWHERE except the head...the meta of the game doesn't support it. No matter the benefit, aiming at the head is always better than the leg/arm. Bleeds are similarly useless. When how fast a zombie goes down is the most critical factor (and it is and always will be in this game system), a damage over time effect is irrelevant, unless it can be applied to a large group instantly (hence molotovs being useful, as would bleed-inducing shrapnel 'nades).

There simply aren't enough unique, relevant benefits to give to each specific weapon type.

But there ARE a lot of specific combat bonuses that a player could want. They may be more or less relevant to different weapon types, but they're still useful for any of them.

The perks as they are now are meh because there really aren't many benefits they can tie to them. If a specific weapon type has specific traits, then give those traits to the weapon, rather than perks...let the perks represent general proficiency with speed swings, reloading, conserving stamina, crippling/destroying body parts, aiming speed, etc. It makes more sense and better gameplay (less restrictive weapons) to allow benefits to transcend weapon types.

 
Maybe things get better when we have human enemies. Bleed and pinning might be more useful then.

Combat certainly could stand to be fleshed out and diversified more.

 
It's also the exact problem TFP are having...there just aren't enough unique "things" to give to each weapon type (or those things SHOULD BE ON THE WEAPON, NOT A PERK!)...you want to give a pin or stun to bows? shotguns already do that. why make different weapon perks do the same thing?
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No there's totally good stuff to attach to each of the perks.

Automatic Weapons: "Rambo": The longer you hold down the trigger, the more damage each shot deals. (ranks increase maximum damage bonus)

Shotgun: "Splattergun": Your shots have a chance to stun and dismember. (ranks increase chance)

Explosive Weapons: "Shredding Munitions": Targets affected by your explosive weapons take increased damage from other sources. (ranks increase damage increase)

Pistols: "Desperate Measures": The lower your health, the faster you reload. (ranks increase maximum benefit)

Rifles: "Killpocalypse": Your shots have a chance to go through a target and hit whatever is behind them. (ranks increase chance)

Archery: "Alpha Predator": Each successful hit makes your next shot do more damage. (ranks increase maximum bonus)

I thought of this roughly as quickly as it took to write this post.

 
I do agree the stamina from the automatic weapons perk is a bit weird. But I use it nevertheless, stamina isn't an issue once you perk up with sledgehammers, but sometimes when I play my solo survivalist game I miss a couple times and run out of stamina before I can kill the endless rad wights/other rads to get that stamina back flowing. Pull out the AK or smg, pop a couple heads off and gain the stamina back to switch to the sledge again. Useful, weird but useful.

 
No there's totally good stuff to attach to each of the perks.
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4 of 6 of your suggestions are flat damage increases, which, with the exception of Dead-eye, TFP has avoided, because a flat damage bonus is better than any other bonus you could possibly get. of the remaining two, there is no dismember except for decapitate anymore...no lost arms or legs, so the shotgun would just be...stun...which it effectively already has, and the pistols already have a better bonus than that (reload and fire rate, which doesn't address the base problem with pistols...which CAN'T be done without giving pistols a crazy overpowered perk to make up for the chance that virtually every other gun is a direct upgrade over pistol).

I get that you just thought that up off the top of your head quickly...but it shows. I specifically avoided suggesting damage increasing perks specifically because TFP has shown a trend of avoiding them, with the exception of headshot or the extreme restrictions on the multiple hits = crit or the power attack on stunned enemies damage bonuses.

There also seems little point to making the bonuses PERK-based benefits tied to the weapon. If the shotgun is so great at blowing off limbs, then make the shotgun blow off limbs...as a feature of the gun, not a perk. If pistols are meant to be reloaded so darned fast, then just give them fast reload speeds.

And one more time for the people in the back:

Let us choose HOW we play, not WHAT we play with.

 
4 of 6 of your suggestions are flat damage increases, which, with the exception of Dead-eye, TFP has avoided, because a flat damage bonus is better than any other bonus you could possibly get. of the remaining two, there is no dismember except for decapitate anymore...no lost arms or legs, so the shotgun would just be...stun...which it effectively already has, and the pistols already have a better bonus than that (reload and fire rate, which doesn't address the base problem with pistols...which CAN'T be done without giving pistols a crazy overpowered perk to make up for the chance that virtually every other gun is a direct upgrade over pistol).
I get that you just thought that up off the top of your head quickly...but it shows. I specifically avoided suggesting damage increasing perks specifically because TFP has shown a trend of avoiding them, with the exception of headshot or the extreme restrictions on the multiple hits = crit or the power attack on stunned enemies damage bonuses.

There also seems little point to making the bonuses PERK-based benefits tied to the weapon. If the shotgun is so great at blowing off limbs, then make the shotgun blow off limbs...as a feature of the gun, not a perk. If pistols are meant to be reloaded so darned fast, then just give them fast reload speeds.

And one more time for the people in the back:

Let us choose HOW we play, not WHAT we play with.
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Who cares about what they've avoided doing? They've avoided making a fun alpha but that shouldn't stop me.

I can't tell if you're being contrarian for the sake of it but it sure seems like you want to find a problem with everything stated.

All of those bonuses make every gun feel unique and gives each a new interaction. One turns Explosive weapons into an actual support weapon that helps teammates in multiplayer. One brings a brand new mechanic to rifles that partly addresses the fact they suffer in the setting you'd typically want a gun. Archery is kinda boring, but so is Archery when compared to guns (I say that as someone that uses primarily bows and Xbows). Shotgun, I just took the old Splattergun perk, so screw anyone that thinks that isn't sound. Pistol becomes the frenzied last resort weapon it always wanted to be. Automatic weapons basically become a movie trope. This game used to be a love letter to the zombie genre, so these kinds of wacky things would fit right in.

If your force yourself to work inside the framework established by TFP, you're only going to reproduce what the TFP have already made. It makes you sound hypocritical when calling for change.

 
I do agree the stamina from the automatic weapons perk is a bit weird. But I use it nevertheless, stamina isn't an issue once you perk up with sledgehammers, but sometimes when I play my solo survivalist game I miss a couple times and run out of stamina before I can kill the endless rad wights/other rads to get that stamina back flowing. Pull out the AK or smg, pop a couple heads off and gain the stamina back to switch to the sledge again. Useful, weird but useful.
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I Agree with this one. Commando Adrenaline would be great as a perk on its own without being tied to specific weapon ( thou i would move it to agility). My favourite playthrough was Iron mace, light armor plus SMG for emergency stamina.

 
If your force yourself to work inside the framework established by TFP, you're only going to reproduce what the TFP have already made. It makes you sound hypocritical when calling for change.
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I'm not going to ask for flying unicorns, hovercars, and magic spells in this game because there is no way it would be added.

This isn't a "hey add this to the game" forum thread. This is a "hey, your game design has been moving away from X and more towards Y. You might want to rethink this aspect, which still smacks of X."

I'm asking for their combat perks to fall into line with the abandonment of A16's learning each individual tiny aspect of the game by doing that (I didn't at all mind learning by doing, but that isn't the POINT. That boat has sailed), and instead embracing their new design direction of a universal currency (experience points) that can be spent to improve aspects of your character that you want to focus on. To get better at doing a thing faster, stronger, or more efficiently. And BECAUSE I'm not asking for anything new, I'm very much avoiding asking for them to add things they've shown extreme reluctance to implement so far.

If you want to discuss adding damage perks, by all means make a thread discussing the merits of said perks, but in this thread, I'm arguing with it because it has little to nothing to do with the topic.

I can't tell if you're being contrarian for the sake of it but it sure seems like you want to find a problem with everything stated.
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Well...yeah i guess. I started this thread because I feel strongly about it. Quite a few people already have come in, dismissed or not addressed the original post of the thread, and decided to comment on "hey! how about we do Z instead?" along the same lines of the specific perks for specific weapons.
I turn the question around...What is so great about spending my perk points to only improve ONE weapon, rather than an aspect of all ranged or melee combat? Why do you WANT the perks to limit your weapon choice?

 
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I can't agree here at all. In fact the proposed idea you just gave is the EXACT complaint most people have about the shotgun perk....there's no reason to aim for the leg...even with a knockdown/stun/pin.
It's also the exact problem TFP are having...there just aren't enough unique "things" to give to each weapon type (or those things SHOULD BE ON THE WEAPON, NOT A PERK!)...you want to give a pin or stun to bows? shotguns already do that. why make different weapon perks do the same thing?

Specialization IS the problem, because the combat system is too simplistic to support it.

There is NO reason to incentivize shooting ANYWHERE except the head...the meta of the game doesn't support it. No matter the benefit, aiming at the head is always better than the leg/arm. Bleeds are similarly useless. When how fast a zombie goes down is the most critical factor (and it is and always will be in this game system), a damage over time effect is irrelevant, unless it can be applied to a large group instantly (hence molotovs being useful, as would bleed-inducing shrapnel 'nades).

There simply aren't enough unique, relevant benefits to give to each specific weapon type.

But there ARE a lot of specific combat bonuses that a player could want. They may be more or less relevant to different weapon types, but they're still useful for any of them.

The perks as they are now are meh because there really aren't many benefits they can tie to them. If a specific weapon type has specific traits, then give those traits to the weapon, rather than perks...let the perks represent general proficiency with speed swings, reloading, conserving stamina, crippling/destroying body parts, aiming speed, etc. It makes more sense and better gameplay (less restrictive weapons) to allow benefits to transcend weapon types.
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i disagree.

heavy metal with sledgehammers means you can knock the enemy down and stun them. this isnt a headshot, but it stops the enemy from attacking, alowing you to take out the high level foe with blows to the head. sledgehammers are risk reward weapons. if you miss you strike, that gay rad biker is gona whack you twice before you can try again, and perhaps even stun or bleed you. headshots dont mean ♥♥♥♥ to a rad biker because hes tanky as ♥♥♥♥, same for rads in general, so haveing abilitys to cripple and control the horde is better in the long run.

pinning shot for bows would alow players to lend to a support role, going for the legs of enemys to stop them in there tracks for a moment or two, allowing ally easy headshots, or even headshots with the bow/Xbow itself. and with a fast enough firing speed, you could easily control a horde to your liking and be a regular robin hood.

each weapon should be different in its specialisation. i do agree with the bleed thing, it does need buffing. perhaps slowing a enemy depending the amount of bleed they have on them. as well as a visual effect. but to say specialisation is bad in itself, i have to disagree with.

 
Well...yeah i guess. I started this thread because I feel strongly about it. Quite a few people already have come in, dismissed or not addressed the original post of the thread, and decided to comment on "hey! how about we do Z instead?" along the same lines of the specific perks for specific weapons.
I turn the question around...What is so great about spending my perk points to only improve ONE weapon, rather than an aspect of all ranged or melee combat? Why do you WANT the perks to limit your weapon choice?
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I am in the "A16's perk system was somewhere between 100x better and infinitely better" crowd, so on the first part I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As for the second part.. we've already got 2 perks that buff all guns. We *could* add more, but I think we've already got a problem with progression feeling bland with basically every perk being just +stat. I don't think it'll feel any better if we added more.

My suggestions at least added new interactions with some of the guns. explosive weapons become support weapons, your bullets go through dudes, be rewarded for blowing through ammo like a crazy person, and give a gun the chance to dismember again. Much more interesting than just +stat.

 
No there's totally good stuff to attach to each of the perks.
Automatic Weapons: "Rambo": The longer you hold down the trigger, the more damage each shot deals. (ranks increase maximum damage bonus)

Shotgun: "Splattergun": Your shots have a chance to stun and dismember. (ranks increase chance)

Explosive Weapons: "Shredding Munitions": Targets affected by your explosive weapons take increased damage from other sources. (ranks increase damage increase)

Pistols: "Desperate Measures": The lower your health, the faster you reload. (ranks increase maximum benefit)

Rifles: "Killpocalypse": Your shots have a chance to go through a target and hit whatever is behind them. (ranks increase chance)

Archery: "Alpha Predator": Each successful hit makes your next shot do more damage. (ranks increase maximum bonus)

I thought of this roughly as quickly as it took to write this post.
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I personally love these.

I can see why this is polarising though. In the one camp, you have people wanting a realistic apocalypse sim, and in the other camp you have people wanting fun mechanics. I lean towards wanting to have fun more than realism.

I don't think there is a right and a wrong here. It's just a direction that the Fun Pimps have to choose.

 
Slightly different; but related problem: The perks simply aren't balanced.

All perspectives are taken from a late-game standpoint. Where Irradiated zombies are common.

Melee:

-Blades: The bleed stack will never overcome the health regen of an irradiated zombie. SO while this is a damage increasing perk; the way irradiated regen works means it will not have enough of an impact to change anything when combined with: Axes, as of this post; can't have Rad Stoppers equipped. Machetes range is substantially lower than an axe, and can't have a weighted head. Meaning your ability to knockdown or control an attacker is very very small.

Bottom line: the perk is weak, attached to a weak weapon group due to limitations of available mods, or reach. Additionally the decapitation chance doesn't seem to matter.

-Blunt: A decent perk; but only works after a zed has already been knocked over. This is a CC perk; and has no impact on killing things faster - but does make killing things much safer. This means that once you proc a knockdown, you've essentially won. But prior; still all the risks of taking hits or having that sudden rush pack in a high end POI get all over you.

Spiked clubs with armor degregation seem to work very well, the barbed club bleed is insignificant.

-Heavy (Sledge): Hail to the King. With the ability to absolutely guarantee a knockdown on each light attack; this perk doesn't directly increase damage but is bar none the game's best (and really only) reliable CC perk. If you hit your target; you've essentially won. If you are rushed by several targets; a power attack will rag doll most, if not all of them to the ground. Allowing valuable time to get the situation under control. No other weapon offers this, or any remotely near as valuable effect. The only tangible downside to the sledge, is how slow it is, and how much stamina it costs. Both downsides can be overcome with sufficient player skill and awareness. They are not mechanically limiting.

Ranged:

-Dead Eye: A fantastic perk; stuck on poor weapons. Increasing the damage of your shots; for each single shot kill is a great way to tangibly reward precise consistent aim. However; as the game goes on and on - a 5 round sniper simply will not save you from any rush encounter, the only actually dangerous late game situation. And it will not do any job at clearing an area that a bow wouldn't, but more efficiently.

If you are not detected; the sniper is not really better than a bow. If you are detected; the sniper doesn't offer the staying power to clear dangerous situations. (Getting piled on suddenly. Waking up zombies in a nice opened shamway store isn't dangerous.)

-Gunslinger: Likely; the best perk in the ranged weapons tree. After a few shots; gives the next bullet 100% extra damage. If you ignore this mechanic - it's still a damage increase. If you pay close attention; it's an incredible damage increase. It works well not only with the baseline Pistol and Magnum, but is very fun when paired with the burst trigger on the aforementioned pistol. If your burst lands; you'll proc this effect on each pull. I have very little negative to say about this; it may not be people's favorite, but there isn't a situation where this perk is useless. And that alone puts it miles ahead of the others.

-Shotgun Messiah: I personally do not like this perk; because it doesn't list it's values in game. I do however like; how it's a compounding proc chance effect. So as it levels it can do more and more; which is good. But for the same reason I'll always take sledge over blunt - chance is not guaranteed. And I for one won't rely on 'chance of' if I don't have to. It is however on a great weapons platform. The shotgun has a wide enough array of mods that you can tailor the weapons in a surprising number of ways. It left me feeling like my old Fallout:NV shotgun surgeon character. And that's fantastic.

-Automatic Weapons: I hate this perk. It's a non-performance increasing perk; that is useless in the vast majority of situations. The only, only niche I could find for it was to pair it with a sledge hammer build. And only power attack. Swap to an SMG to ... magically spray back my stamina, for more sledge power attacks. This is dumb. And the AK deserves better. (Initially on seeing the perks I had high hopes that I could mod an AK with a semi-auto trigger to benefit from Deadshot. Sadly; it's item based and not fire-grouping based.)

-Archery: Has... no effect. So really nothing to say here. Brainstorming maybe? Stealing a perk from Skyrim's Ordinator mod; Landing a shot further increases draw & reload speed by 5%, stacking, for 3 seconds. There, benefits both C.Bows (Compound and Cross).

-Explosive Weapons: Honestly haven't touched an explosive since A17 first went experimental release. Does this even work? 5/5 explosive, Rocket Launcher, with Recog... still doesn't kill glowstick zombies. Molotovs and Pipebombs don't seem to be getting the dismembering bonus. And Exploding Crossbow bolts don't benefit from this at all. Far as I'm concerned... a completely trap perk line.

So I suppose in conclusion; I see what they're trying to do with these. But I don't think they're balanced, neither against eachother - the game - or the weapons they affect. And could use some re-imagining. The worst offenders are (IMO) the ones that only have uses in niche situations; while other competing weapons type perks are always useful. But the niche ones aren't proportionally stronger to make their niche worth going into.

 
Slightly different; but related problem: The perks simply aren't balanced.
All perspectives are taken from a late-game standpoint. Where Irradiated zombies are common.

Melee:

-Blades: The bleed stack will never overcome the health regen of an irradiated zombie. SO while this is a damage increasing perk; the way irradiated regen works means it will not have enough of an impact to change anything when combined with: Axes, as of this post; can't have Rad Stoppers equipped. Machetes range is substantially lower than an axe, and can't have a weighted head. Meaning your ability to knockdown or control an attacker is very very small.

Bottom line: the perk is weak, attached to a weak weapon group due to limitations of available mods, or reach. Additionally the decapitation chance doesn't seem to matter.

-Blunt: A decent perk; but only works after a zed has already been knocked over. This is a CC perk; and has no impact on killing things faster - but does make killing things much safer. This means that once you proc a knockdown, you've essentially won. But prior; still all the risks of taking hits or having that sudden rush pack in a high end POI get all over you.

Spiked clubs with armor degregation seem to work very well, the barbed club bleed is insignificant.

-Heavy (Sledge): Hail to the King. With the ability to absolutely guarantee a knockdown on each light attack; this perk doesn't directly increase damage but is bar none the game's best (and really only) reliable CC perk. If you hit your target; you've essentially won. If you are rushed by several targets; a power attack will rag doll most, if not all of them to the ground. Allowing valuable time to get the situation under control. No other weapon offers this, or any remotely near as valuable effect. The only tangible downside to the sledge, is how slow it is, and how much stamina it costs. Both downsides can be overcome with sufficient player skill and awareness. They are not mechanically limiting.

Ranged:

-Dead Eye: A fantastic perk; stuck on poor weapons. Increasing the damage of your shots; for each single shot kill is a great way to tangibly reward precise consistent aim. However; as the game goes on and on - a 5 round sniper simply will not save you from any rush encounter, the only actually dangerous late game situation. And it will not do any job at clearing an area that a bow wouldn't, but more efficiently.

If you are not detected; the sniper is not really better than a bow. If you are detected; the sniper doesn't offer the staying power to clear dangerous situations. (Getting piled on suddenly. Waking up zombies in a nice opened shamway store isn't dangerous.)

-Gunslinger: Likely; the best perk in the ranged weapons tree. After a few shots; gives the next bullet 100% extra damage. If you ignore this mechanic - it's still a damage increase. If you pay close attention; it's an incredible damage increase. It works well not only with the baseline Pistol and Magnum, but is very fun when paired with the burst trigger on the aforementioned pistol. If your burst lands; you'll proc this effect on each pull. I have very little negative to say about this; it may not be people's favorite, but there isn't a situation where this perk is useless. And that alone puts it miles ahead of the others.

-Shotgun Messiah: I personally do not like this perk; because it doesn't list it's values in game. I do however like; how it's a compounding proc chance effect. So as it levels it can do more and more; which is good. But for the same reason I'll always take sledge over blunt - chance is not guaranteed. And I for one won't rely on 'chance of' if I don't have to. It is however on a great weapons platform. The shotgun has a wide enough array of mods that you can tailor the weapons in a surprising number of ways. It left me feeling like my old Fallout:NV shotgun surgeon character. And that's fantastic.

-Automatic Weapons: I hate this perk. It's a non-performance increasing perk; that is useless in the vast majority of situations. The only, only niche I could find for it was to pair it with a sledge hammer build. And only power attack. Swap to an SMG to ... magically spray back my stamina, for more sledge power attacks. This is dumb. And the AK deserves better. (Initially on seeing the perks I had high hopes that I could mod an AK with a semi-auto trigger to benefit from Deadshot. Sadly; it's item based and not fire-grouping based.)

-Archery: Has... no effect. So really nothing to say here. Brainstorming maybe? Stealing a perk from Skyrim's Ordinator mod; Landing a shot further increases draw & reload speed by 5%, stacking, for 3 seconds. There, benefits both C.Bows (Compound and Cross).

-Explosive Weapons: Honestly haven't touched an explosive since A17 first went experimental release. Does this even work? 5/5 explosive, Rocket Launcher, with Recog... still doesn't kill glowstick zombies. Molotovs and Pipebombs don't seem to be getting the dismembering bonus. And Exploding Crossbow bolts don't benefit from this at all. Far as I'm concerned... a completely trap perk line.

So I suppose in conclusion; I see what they're trying to do with these. But I don't think they're balanced, neither against eachother - the game - or the weapons they affect. And could use some re-imagining. The worst offenders are (IMO) the ones that only have uses in niche situations; while other competing weapons type perks are always useful. But the niche ones aren't proportionally stronger to make their niche worth going into.
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I can't really find anything to disagree with here. Hopefully like many other things such as end game loot and zombie AI pathing, this is just a bare bones system they put together for now and are going to flesh it out more at some point.

Weapon perks are not the best system right now but it seems there's enough now to get a decent build out even though the variety of great builds is limited.

 
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