PC Random Stat Implementation

But quality isnt just an indicator for the player, but also used to give you worse or better items depending on gamestage, lucky looter and such factors.
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That would be handled via the "hidden level" Hype was talking about.

I like the general visibility "oh its a T4 I definatly take that with me and compare it" or "ah just a T1 I can scrap that since I have a T5".

You still have to compare tiers close to each other, but a T1 is never better (in my experience) than a T4-6.

Sometimes they have one stat were they are marginally better, but never worth it.

 
That would be handled via the "hidden level" Hype was talking about.
I like the general visibility "oh its a T4 I definatly take that with me and compare it" or "ah just a T1 I can scrap that since I have a T5".

You still have to compare tiers close to each other, but a T1 is never better (in my experience) than a T4-6.

Sometimes they have one stat were they are marginally better, but never worth it.
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I dont know, I dont really mind about this topic, but it looks like we already have quality system, and you are talking about inventing a new hidden system for the same puspose, with the only benefit of needing to check the items more carefully. Not sure it's worth.

 
I dont know, I dont really mind about this topic, but it looks like we already have quality system, and you are talking about inventing a new hidden system for the same puspose, with the only benefit of needing to check the items more carefully. Not sure it's worth.
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I'm not :D

Just spinning BeHypes idea to the extreme and I found I actually like it :D

But I'm totally fine with the system as it is now! I love the random stats every weapon can have.

So lategame you can have a total dud T6 weapon and craft an awesome T5 weapon, but you might also only craft duds until you find that awesome T6 weapon...

I like it :D

 
The issue I see here is what everyone defines as quality. The ones who feel damage is the defining value of quality are the ones that probably are most confused as it's hard to accept a low tier item can be better them a high tier item (damage wise) when reality the tier system just defines the number of mod slots.

Edit: @Gazz would it be easy to total all stats together (weighted values) and then use that number to represent quality instead? That way a max roll t2 item (all stats except mod slots) would be t5 or t6 in color despite the poor mod slots? I think that would fix alot of the gripes here.

 
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[...]when reality the tier system just defines the number of mod slots.
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No. No this is not what is happening. Sorry to call BS. Read my first post:

Disagree.Let me show you in numbers:

Lets say each stat is the quality of the item x10, with a variance of 10

so

T1: 0-20

T2: 10-30

T3: 20-40

T4: 30-50

T5: 40-60

T6: 50-70
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This is only an example and items may have a variance of 20 or even 30.

BUT higher tiers ARE better. As they have a bellcurve that is pushed to the right. So while individual T6 weapons might be worse than individual T5 weapons, OVERALL T6 is better in every way.

 
No. No this is not what is happening. Sorry to call BS. Read my first post:

This is only an example and items may have a variance of 20 or even 30.

BUT higher tiers ARE better. As they have a bellcurve that is pushed to the right. So while individual T6 weapons might be worse than individual T5 weapons, OVERALL T6 is better in every way.
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The problem here is that you aren't using real numbers. You admit that you don't know whether the overlap is 10 or 20 or 30. The higher that overlap is, the less relevant tiers actually are other than counting mod slots. Obviously saying T1s compare to T6s is a strawman argument, but at the high end of the scale (Ts 4-6) the MOST significant, consistent difference I've observed between items is number of mod slots.

 
Why is too much overlap a bad thing?I don't want to sound cruel. I honestly don't... but from all that I've read, the only problem people have is that they are too lazy to look every stat up before scrapping... and that was precicely the point of this change. To make higher tiers better overall, but give that outlier some op stats that you prefer.

Here are SOME things I want you guys to take a look at. And I mean really look at:

1. do you compare T4 (with mods) vs T6? Because mods raise the stats by quite a bit, so the basestats might actually be lower (had that happen to me 3-4 times)

2. how many weapons of lower quality have you scrapped, before coming across a higher tier weapon that you scrapped? (my ratio is about 5:1 maybe 10:1) because if you only pay attention to the better low quality ones and ignore all the ones you scrap, of course you will feel like lower quality is always better

3. think about the bells curve (normal distribution). It basicially tells us that, say T2 has a 30% chance of beeing better than T4. That doesnt make T4 worse, it is just a numbersgame. in 70% of cases T4 is still better. And since there are 5 factors (damage, rpm, magsize, range, durability) it becomes extremely unlikely that a T2 is better than a T4 in all regards. Just because you don't care about 4 of them, doesnt mean that the T4 is worse :D just for you. (which is a good thing and exactly what this system is aiming at)
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It has nothing to do with laziness. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but looking up every stat on every item just isn't FUN for me. I appreciate an intuitive design that allows me to gather information as quickly as possible, make an informed decision, and MOVE ON with my gameplay. Comparing stats is certainly fun for some people and you are clearly one of those people. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd suggest that expecting to find that kind of fun in this kind of game is a bit misguided. Maybe I'm wrong, I expect the open-world survival genre to be more streamlined and action-focused as opposed to stat-focused like an RPG or ARPG.

1) I take the mods off. That's definitely a big part of the problem as taking the mods off is a major PITA, as others have said.

2) That's completely irrelevant. Lower tier items with lower stats are the expected result. The issue here is all about higher tier items with lower stats. The relevant question is how many items of the same or higher tier do you find before finding one with superior stats. In my experience that number is between 5 and 20 when trying to upgrade from T4 items and that's way too many, IMO.

3) Where are these numbers coming from? Are they real or just your assumption?

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Because it defeats the purpose of having 6 quality ranks in the first place. Taking your logic to the extreme, if the only certainty I have comparing two items of different quality is the number of mod slots, we might aswell replace the quality system with a hidden iLvl like most games do and randomize mod slots based on the iLvl. Having a visual cue that is more often than not misleading is... well, misleading, and at best useless.
Before we take my words out of context, I'm not saying overlap is a bad thing, just that too much of it is.
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Agreed. Even if some amount of overlap between tiers is desirable (although I honestly can't see a reason why it is) the degree is just too high right now, IMO. We might as well go back to 600 QLs.

 
Okay, im home now and here is what is under the hood.

See Pistol code below from items.xml

This is my initial thoughts on what I can make out.

Mod Slot Range: 1 to 4 slots possible (t1&t2 - 1 slot, t3&t4 - 2 slots, t5 - 3 slots, t6 - 4 slots)

Entity/Block Bonus Damage: Can vary randomly from 10-50% more damage across t2 through t6 quality. It is unclear if this implies if higher tiers have a higher chance at more damage or if the "tier" variable was used only exclude bonus damage from t1. Since there is no percentage value that I can see defined, this may imply that the full damage range can occur across all tiers (except the excluded t1 of course :) ). It is worth noting that the base entity/block damage has an random spread of +/- 15% regardless of quality. So there is "Double RNG" at work here. RNG calc for the initial damage values then a 2nd RNG calc for the bonus damage on top.

DegradationMax: Can vary randomly from 250 to 450 across t1 through t6 quality. It is unclear if this implies if higher tiers have a higher chance at more DegradationMax. However, it is questionable why the "tier" variable was used when no tiers were excluded from the specified range. Since there is no percentage value that I can see defined, this may imply that the full degradationMax range can occur across all tiers.

IN CONCLUSION: The only thing the tiers / colors guarantee are the number of mod slots while there are tier based calculations for a couple of stats only (damage and degradation).

Afterthoughts: I wonder what "ModPowerBonus" is for? @Gazz.

Code: 
<effect_group name="gunPistol">
	<passive_effect name="MaxRange" operation="base_set" value="50"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_set" value="18"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="perc_add" value="-.2,.2"/> <!-- random effective rng -->

	<!--<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="0"/>
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value="0"/>-->
	<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="-.8" tags="earth"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="2" tags="wood"/>

	<passive_effect name="RoundsPerMinute" operation="base_set" value="180"/>
	<passive_effect name="BurstRoundCount" operation="base_set" value="1"/>

	<passive_effect name="MagazineSize" operation="base_set" value="15"/>
	<passive_effect name="ReloadSpeedMultiplier" operation="base_set" value="1"/> <!-- 2s -->
	<passive_effect name="ModSlots" operation="base_set" value="1,1,2,2,3,4" tier="1,2,3,4,5,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="perc_add" value=".10" tags="EntityDamage,BlockDamage"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="base_add" value="200" tags="EconomicValue"/>

	<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="-.15,.15"/> <!-- random rng -->
	<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6"/> <!-- tier bonus -->
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value="-.15,.15"/> <!-- random BlockDmg -->
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6"/> <!-- tier bonus -->

	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="perc_add" value="-.2,.2" tags="perkGunslinger"/> <!-- random DegMax -->
	<passive_effect name="RoundsPerMinute" operation="perc_add" value="-.05,.05"/> <!-- random APM -->
	<passive_effect name="MagazineSize" operation="perc_add" value="-.122,.122"/> <!-- random MagazineSize -->
	<passive_effect name="WeaponHandling" operation="perc_add" value="-.08,.08"/> <!-- random WeaponHandling -->

	<passive_effect name="SpreadDegreesVertical" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadDegreesHorizontal" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierAiming" operation="base_set" value=".4"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierCrouching" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierWalking" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierRunning" operation="base_set" value="2.2"/>

	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesVerticalMin" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>
	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesVerticalMax" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>

	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesHorizontalMin" operation="base_set" value="-.25"/>
	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesHorizontalMax" operation="base_set" value=".25"/>

	<passive_effect name="IncrementalSpreadMultiplier" operation="base_set" value="2.0"/>
	<passive_effect name="WeaponHandling" operation="base_set" value=".95"/> <!-- crosshair reset speed -->

	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="base_set" value="250,450" tier="1,6" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationPerUse" operation="base_set" value="1" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun"/>
</effect_group>
 
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Okay, im home now and here is what is under the hood.
Pistol code from items.xml
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So if I read that right (and i might be wrong as I never changed much in the xml) I was right... wasn't I?

8-20% variation on both ends.

Right? Otherwise please explain. BC that is what I am reading out of this.

 
So if I read that right (and i might be wrong as I never changed much in the xml) I was right... wasn't I?8-20% variation on both ends.

Right? Otherwise please explain. BC that is what I am reading out of this.
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Not sure what you previously stated but here is an example.

Let's say a pistol has a base damage of 100 (hypothetical). Based on these calculations a t1 pistol could have a damage value from 85 to 115.

Because there is a specified bonus for higher tiered versions an extra 10 to 50 more damage is possible for t2 to t6 pistols. Therefore a t2 to t6 pistols could have a damage spread of 95 to 165. There is nothing that indicates higher tiers have a higher chance at higher damage rolls when compared to lower tiers (except t1).

If this is true, it is theoretically possible to get a max damage roll on a t2/orange tier item.

So my takeaway is dont be so fast to scrap/sell t2 to t5 items unless all you care about is having the most mod slots possible.

 
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So if I read that right (and i might be wrong as I never changed much in the xml) I was right... wasn't I?8-20% variation on both ends.

Right? Otherwise please explain. BC that is what I am reading out of this.
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Not sure what you previously stated but here is an example.
Let's say a pistol has a base damage of 100 (hypothetical). Based on these calculations a t1 pistol could have a damage value from 85 to 115.

Because there is a specified bonus for higher tiered versions an extra 10 to 50 more damage is possible for t2 to t6 pistols. Therefore a t2 to t6 pistols could have a damage spread of 95 to 165. There is nothing that indicates higher tiers have a higher chance at higher damage rolls when compared to lower tiers (except t1).

If this is true, it is theoretically possible to get a max damage roll on a t2/orange tier item.

So my takeaway is dont be so fast to scrap/sell t2 to t5 items unless all you care about is having the most mod slots possible.
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So I was right. Tiers correlate to mod slots, not stats. Higher tier items with better stats are pure RNG. That makes a lot of sense with what I've observed in game.

Now the question is, is that good design?

@Gazz: you went quiet after my last response to you. Have you got an answer to the question?

 
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Not sure what you previously stated but here is an example.
Let's say a pistol has a base damage of 100 (hypothetical). Based on these calculations a t1 pistol could have a damage value from 85 to 115.

Because there is a specified bonus for higher tiered versions an extra 10 to 50 more damage is possible for t2 to t6 pistols. Therefore a t2 to t6 pistols could have a damage spread of 95 to 165. There is nothing that indicates higher tiers have a higher chance at higher damage rolls when compared to lower tiers (except t1).
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And my takeaway is, that T1 has a base of 100, T2 110, T3 120, ... , T6 150

So that the range is

T1:

85-115 (100)

T2:

93-126 (110)

T3:

102-138 (120)

T4:

110-150 (130)

T5:

119-161 (140)

T6:

127-173 (150)

This is the most intuitive way to interpret this data, and the one that makes the most sense, coinsides with my first guess and is what I actually observed in game!

So a T2 CAN'T have better stats than a T6 (in this pistol example) but a T3 can have better stats if the T6 has rolled REALLY bad (127-138 with the medium of 150)

This is very well done if this is correct and props to the fun pimps!

IF Psychodabble is correct and values of T2-T6 are just random, that is BAD. It would defeat the purpose of levels... but I don't think that is the case. As nearly all my higher tiers are better than the lower ones, with only few exceptions.

Any official statement?

 
I think you're getting close to reading what's written there in plain sight. =P
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nice to hear.

But not everyone is well versed in XML editing :D

So I just go off what I can read from a basic programming logic :D

Can you elaborate further on how it is meant exactly? BC if I'm close I still seem to have overlooked some stuff ^^

 
I think we can all agree that the comparison user interface has to improve independant of any changes to the color system. Even if you only needed to compare blues with blues you don't want to subtract effects from mods and different ammo to get at a result.

Apart from that:

I like that you can find weapons with great damage and abyssal magazine size. That is a wonderful choice to make. And if damage is the only stat you care about then fine, just ignore the other values and don't complain that they are there for comparison.

Since other stats besides damage are (for most players surely) much less important I would even make their ranges bigger AND shift their chances after the damage roll. So that higher damage more likely coincides with small magazine or low durability and vice versa.

This system is unusal by the way (another advantage in my book). And it sure has the disadvantage that you can't judge a weapon by its "cover". Nothing a better GUI can't repair.

Like Steve Balmer I want to jump on a stage now and shout "GUI GUI GUI". We need a better GUI here.

 
I kinda like it but i wish it could more random stats like

more/less durability , Faster/slower attack speed , more/less entity or block damage etc

 
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