Psychodabble
New member
This just doesn't mesh with my experience at all. I don't know if I've just got extremely well rolled T4s and 5s, but I'm finding MANY items of superior tier with inferior stats.
PC Random Stat Implementation
- Thread starter Psychodabble
- Start date
Viktoriusiii
New member
Duh
Someone has to And yes I like my T2 ak more than the T4 aks I found.
But I also scrapped like 50 weapons T1-3 for higher tiers that were better in every regard.
Some are just lucky finds and even good tiers might not compare.
But higher tiers ARE better. And not just by a bit.
Psychodabble
New member
That's what I'm trying to communicate here. You may intend for the chance of T5 being better than T6 to be very low, but it isn't...at least in my experience.
I understand that color is meant to be a general indicator, but it isn't working well for me. I have to sit and compare numbers for every T4-6 item because the color is not successfully conveying the item's power.
I don't know if you mean to, but you're coming across here like this is the set-in-stone implementation for stat variance rather than a first pass. Nobody said anything about bugs, it's about design choices that are intuitive and give the player a good grasp of which items they should keep/use.
The design philosophy at work here is very confusing to me. I thought the whole point of going from 600 QLs to 6 was to make it simpler when it came to these player decisions. Random variance can definitely be a huge enhancement to the item hunt, but it if it comes at the cost of that intuitive simplicity, then what was the point?
Again, I never said that the variance should be small...just that the tiers/colors should be distinctly separated from each other. It doesn't even have to be an even distribution.
For example, think about something like this, only talking about damage stats for simplicity's sake: if T1 has 1-10, T2 has 11-20, T3 has 21-30, T4 has 31-40, T5 has 41-65, and T6 has 66-100. I think this would give everybody what they are looking for. Each tier is always strictly better than the one below it, but the variance within tiers, particularly at the high end, is significant enough that unless the very first T6 you pick up has 100 damage, you'll still have a chance for multiple upgrades, therefore it's worth checking out every T6 you find.
I don't see inferior items being useless in late game as a problem since that's ALWAYS been the case and still is now. The only difference with this stat implementation is that I need to stare at something for 5 minutes before deciding it's useless rather than knowing at a glance.
That idea also runs counter to what I thought the whole point of the item part system is/should be...in theory no item would be useless when you can scrap it for parts that you can recraft into a chance at a statistically better item.
I would hope that you guys are more open to feedback on this topic than it seems from these posts here. I'm not asking that the whole system be reworked, just that the numbers be considered carefully and tweaked if feedback indicates they should be. Maybe we need a poll so we get a larger sense of how people feel about it.
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Psychodabble
New member
I just think you're being a bit too absolute when you have only your own experience to draw from. My experience has been different than yours and I'm not the only one.Duh
But I also scrapped like 50 weapons T1-3 for higher tiers that were better in every regard.
Some are just lucky finds and even good tiers might not compare.
But higher tiers ARE better. And not just by a bit.
I also don't see what's so great about having low tier items with extreme statistical outliers. The exact same thing could be achieved with greater variance at higher tiers. The only difference would be that you would be hanging on to that "special" T5 or T6 AK instead of T2. And it would be easier for me and people like me to get rid of low tier junk without having to thoroughly examine the stats first.
Psychodabble
New member
So what about my suggestion of separated tiers with larger variance at the high end? My sense is that would meet everyone's goals.
Psychodabble
New member
I don't understand where you're coming from here. Did you look at the example in my earlier post? You can have both higher variance within tiers AND strict hierarchy of tiers. I gave a very simple example of how. I will repost it for you here:
Statistical comparison would still be needed, but only WITHIN a tier and only at the highest levels. What about something like that?
- - - Updated - - -
Essentially, yes. As implemented the color only dictates mod slots as lower tier items can have better stats than higher tiers.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
Thanks for the confirm. Then my next question does # of mod slots > then all other stats? If the answer to this question is no, then tiers/color needs to be associated with something else while number of mod slots demoted to just another random stat on items since people are treating the color system as the main measuring stick of quality.
I tried a game with 20 minute days instead of 60....popping all the mods off my Q5 items every time if went to a trader or found a new T5-6 item might not be a big deal to you, but those seconds mattered big to me...sometimes it was the difference between getting back to turn in a quest and grab a new one for the night, or be stuck outside til morning, or ticking the last few minutes of daylight left halfway thru a POI because I found a new wrench and needed it decided now, rather than increase encumbrance for the whole clear.
If the variance is going to stay this big, then the comparison window needs to be a lot more responsive and intuitive, mainly in regards to comparing base item stats WITHOUT needing to remove mods.
If the variance is going to stay this big, then the comparison window needs to be a lot more responsive and intuitive, mainly in regards to comparing base item stats WITHOUT needing to remove mods.
beHypE
New member
I wish we had the exact ranges for a specific weapon so we could actually talk facts instead of coming up with examples. No overlap seems better on paper but I doubt it is in practice because it makes the game super linear. Too much overlap is bad though, that's why discussion without factual numbers can be misleading.
What definitely should happen is being able at a glance to compare raw (unmodded) stats. It's a PITA having to empty all the mod slots everytime you wanna compare two items.
What definitely should happen is being able at a glance to compare raw (unmodded) stats. It's a PITA having to empty all the mod slots everytime you wanna compare two items.
Viktoriusiii
New member
Why is too much overlap a bad thing?
I don't want to sound cruel. I honestly don't... but from all that I've read, the only problem people have is that they are too lazy to look every stat up before scrapping... and that was precicely the point of this change. To make higher tiers better overall, but give that outlier some op stats that you prefer.
Here are SOME things I want you guys to take a look at. And I mean really look at:
1. do you compare T4 (with mods) vs T6? Because mods raise the stats by quite a bit, so the basestats might actually be lower (had that happen to me 3-4 times)
2. how many weapons of lower quality have you scrapped, before coming across a higher tier weapon that you scrapped? (my ratio is about 5:1 maybe 10:1) because if you only pay attention to the better low quality ones and ignore all the ones you scrap, of course you will feel like lower quality is always better
3. think about the bells curve (normal distribution). It basicially tells us that, say T2 has a 30% chance of beeing better than T4. That doesnt make T4 worse, it is just a numbersgame. in 70% of cases T4 is still better. And since there are 5 factors (damage, rpm, magsize, range, durability) it becomes extremely unlikely that a T2 is better than a T4 in all regards. Just because you don't care about 4 of them, doesnt mean that the T4 is worse
just for you. (which is a good thing and exactly what this system is aiming at)
Kalarro
New member
Why is it good tho? Lets take it from another angle. Lets say we loot a weapon and it will have damage 23. What do you care if it is a T3 with a bad number or T2 with a good one?
i dont mind overlap, but whats the benefit of it? Why not just make the weapon T1: 10-15, T2: 16-20, T3: 21-25 and so on.
I see your arguments of why it isnt bad, but why is it good, why overcomplicate it? And Im a player who loves tons of stats and variables. but if they have a purpose
Viktoriusiii
New member
While progression in loot currently is much too fast, which, I hope, will be fixed next experimental...
When do you find T1 weapons? When do you find T4 weapons?
Do you think that if you find a T1 with an awesome stat early on it plays the same as if it had worse stats?
It is basicially a way to tell the player "it is better, but is it better FOR YOU?"
It is like in other looter shooter:
Just because it is better, doesnt mean it is better for YOU!
Lets say you have a T2 Ak withabove average stats. And you now have an ak with slightly below average stats.
If you have a lot of mods, you can fill the T4 with mods and it is again better (stat wise) than the T2 PLUS it has more utility (bigger mag, flashlight, scope and so on)
If you DON'T you can keep the T4 as a reserve until you find one.
Basicially what it all comes down to: They don't want you to think in numbers "oh its a TX, lets scrap that!"
And more "Ouh its a nice new weapon, its one tier lower, but I dont have enough mods anyway, lets compare them!"
Every weapon has a character now. I agree a tiny bit of balancing should be done * but overall it is a nice system that brings ME a lot of immersion and more accomplishment, since 7d2d is now a looter shooter and looting should be exciting.
*I would balance it like so:
Every tier has a max and a min total stat (DMG * 5 + RPM * 5 + Magsize * 50 + Durability <= XXX+Tier*500)
but within these stats, they can vary wildly!
So you might get a pistol with only 3 magazinesize but a power that rivals magnums, or low damage but smg like speed and so on, but OVERALL are they nearly always worse than higher tiers (slight overlap between tiers)
theFlu
Well-known member
Hmm..
"Weapon refurbishment kit"
Full repair, (chance to) Improve a random stat on a weapon slightly
Craft: A related weapon part, a repair kit, a related steel/iron bar ..
Would require tweaks to crafting, so not exactly hopeful - but would make the T6 always better, just may need some more work honing it
"Weapon refurbishment kit"
Full repair, (chance to) Improve a random stat on a weapon slightly
Craft: A related weapon part, a repair kit, a related steel/iron bar ..
Would require tweaks to crafting, so not exactly hopeful - but would make the T6 always better, just may need some more work honing it
beHypE
New member
Because it defeats the purpose of having 6 quality ranks in the first place. Taking your logic to the extreme, if the only certainty I have comparing two items of different quality is the number of mod slots, we might aswell replace the quality system with a hidden iLvl like most games do and randomize mod slots based on the iLvl. Having a visual cue that is more often than not misleading is... well, misleading, and at best useless.
Before we take my words out of context, I'm not saying overlap is a bad thing, just that too much of it is.
Viktoriusiii
New member
Well... since you mention it...
After the weaponparts have been taken out... and the quality has been reduced to a 1-6 system... I actually quite like the sound of this.
Just make every weapon just the weapon and let us compare stats...
I mean then ppl would be even more angry and say "GIVE US COLOR BACK! I want to have an indicator for how good a weapon is without having to compare every stat" but I like the idea
That gives weapons asort of... special feel to it.
But I guess that would mean that all quality gear (armor tools and so on) would need this treatment too... which... I guess isn't so bad, but ruins the crafting visibility! Now you can be certain you crafted a ♥♥♥♥ty T3 tool, but otherwise you would complain "I have 4 points in crafting it, why is it worse than the one I found early???"