PC rambling on about min-maxing & perk choices

[Scyris]

I see a big difference between classes and perks. If you choose warrior you won't even get any skills for sorcery. If you choose mage there are no skills that improve the phyiscal damage of your weapon. And the archer might also use a sword, but he has no skill at all to improve sword damage. However those are classes you choose from the start. If 7d2d wants to do that then introduce classes. Additionally those classes are on ground levels of mechanics. It's meele, ranged, sorcery. In 7d2d it's not melee and ranged, it is each single weapon but always both one ranged and one melee tied together. You want to use AK for ranged, then you have to use fists in meele. You prefer blades as melee... you are almost forced to use pistols or bows for ranged. No real option to use blades and shotgun.

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

And this is still no middle age setting where "of course" a mage does sorcery, a warrior does melee and an archer does ranged.

Imho it's a very bad attempt to enforce some kind of "roles/classes" like that by a skill tree that somehow still provides everything. Imho either do classes with class specific skill trees OR do a free skilltree that allows you to spec into what you like, not what somebody thinks you should combine.

Darkness Falls handled this in a rather well thought out way, Each class has things and skills only they can craft/level. You can get every class in the end, however early and mid game, your starter class (or 2 classes in a single player game) can really influence your characters growth. You wanna make a vehicle above a bicycle/minibike? you need the mechanic class. You wanna craft things like first aid kits, drugs etc? you need the Physician class. Each class has a unique item you can only craft when that class is mastered, mastering a class requires the class quest line to be done, and you have to find a master book for your class, OR spend 10 skill points to learn the master skill which unlocks the unique recipes. Weapons/mining tools level with learn by doing with the skill level added bonuses like higher knockdown chance and such to the weapon, and then you have the perk itself that adds bonus damage and effects. For example someone with high archery has a good chance to knockdown or cripple a zombie with every shot making it actually viable at many points of the game. The stat system from a17-18 is completly trashed in the mod and replaced more with a a16 like system. Level gates come back, but they are much more lenient in general compared to the a16 ones.

 

[meganoth]

I see a big difference between classes and perks. If you choose warrior you won't even get any skills for sorcery. If you choose mage there are no skills that improve the phyiscal damage of your weapon. And the archer might also use a sword, but he has no skill at all to improve sword damage. However those are classes you choose from the start. If 7d2d wants to do that then introduce classes. Additionally those classes are on ground levels of mechanics. It's meele, ranged, sorcery. In 7d2d it's not melee and ranged, it is each single weapon but always both one ranged and one melee tied together. You want to use AK for ranged, then you have to use fists in meele. You prefer blades as melee... you are almost forced to use pistols or bows for ranged. No real option to use blades and shotgun.

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

And this is still no middle age setting where "of course" a mage does sorcery, a warrior does melee and an archer does ranged.

Imho it's a very bad attempt to enforce some kind of "roles/classes" like that by a skill tree that somehow still provides everything. Imho either do classes with class specific skill trees OR do a free skilltree that allows you to spec into what you like, not what somebody thinks you should combine.

First of all I should have used the rogue-fighter as an example in my previous post. It would have been similar to the example you were using wanting M60 and stealth. And there AD&D the rogue gets the bonus damage from stealth only with knives and rapiers, not the sword or broadsword, even if he dual-classes. So this is similar but 7D2D allows you to have the stealth bonus with an M60 too, you just have to deal with the fact that the M60 is much louder.

Cross skilling is not far too expensive, I do it all the time in single player. In AD&D a single player would have a much slower progression as well and dual-classing might be the only choice to survive later levels. And the dungeon master would put much easier enemies against you than he would to a group with balanced classes. In 7D2D the slower gamestage progression fullfills the same function, I have much more time in single player to prepare.

You want marksman rifle and blades? Sure, do it. It can be a great combo because as long as you can get some range between you and the zombies the marksman gets the stealth bonus just like the pistol for much more absolute damage and other sleepers often won't wake up.  With slightly less point investment you have dual-classed agi and perception to level 4 in both skills. With the disadvantage of slightly less bonus in each perk but with the advantage of having both perk trees available. Your mining is bad? Doesn't matter, you are better at wrenching and looting, sell more and better stuff and buy cement from the trader a lot cheaper to offset the lower yield from mining (at least in theory, at the moment miner69 seems simply OP, a balancing problem).

I'm saying the predefined combo is not too powerful. That step from perk level 4 to 5 is noticable but with a few exceptions it doesn't matter greatly if you have perks at level 4 or 5.

 

[meganoth]

....

I read this and realise it is true but I am a bit stunned, how boring! Indeed "optimise the fun out of the game"! When it is no longer fun ... I can't imagine still playing.

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game. I can't really judge if that is fun in 7D2D for the long term because I don't play such squad based games (I can't even remember the name of a typical game of that genre), I'm not part of the target group. But for POI clearing even I can see the fun in being part of a well-oiled tactical group with everyone having a different task and training to have a blind understanding what everyone else is doing at the moment. 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You want marksman rifle and blades? Sure, do it. It can be a great combo because as long as you can get some range between you and the zombies the marksman gets the stealth bonus just like the pistol for much more absolute damage and other sleepers often won't wake up.  With slightly less point investment you have dual-classed agi and perception to level 4 in both skills. With the disadvantage of slightly less bonus in each perk but with the advantage of having both perk trees available.

But why should marksman + blade have disadvantages over marksman + spear or blade + pistol?

Last two are both in the same tree and require only perception OR agility.

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

And i still don't have other skills from any of these trees. In case of 3 your spear and pistols are also increased because they are included in PER and AGI, so i HAVE to invest skillpoints for those even if i don't want to use them. Who decided that marksman is combined with spears and pistols are combined with blades? What "roles/classes" should this be? Is it common that a pistol guy uses blades in meele but not clubs or spears? Yeah maybe a "hunter" uses marksman and spears... but he also uses knifes, doesn't he?

Your mining is bad? Doesn't matter, you are better at wrenching and looting, sell more and better stuff and buy cement from the trader a lot cheaper to offset the lower yield from mining (at least in theory, at the moment miner69 seems simply OP, a balancing problem).

I'm not better in mining because i don't even put points into miner 69er and motherlode as these are in the strength tree which i haven't skilled at all. I also have no trader skills as the base attributes PER and AGI only buff weapons, they don't give anything else. I am also not yet better in looting and salvaging until i put ADDITONAL points into salvage operation and lucky looter. But why is a "hunter" better in salvaging or looting? I usually even stay with my role of a "hunter" and are that one that provides food for the group. Maybe call it the "support" role. I need living of the land, huntsman and master chef (this can at least be gained by skillbooks), which are again in two different trees... i have none of. At least animal tracker is already under perception.

What you call "i'm already better in other things" is exactly what my problem is. Yes, i'm better or lets say i can become better with few skillpoints in some skills. But that are not necessarily the skills i want. But because i can get them with less effort, i'm "forced" to take them. I can't play like i want to play, i have to play like the perk system "forces" me to.

At least my weapon choice would not be that way predefined if the base perks didn't buff SPECIFIC weapons.

That is exactly what i meant: Either you want roles/classes, then introduce roles but also put the according skills into it. Or you do not want roles/classes, then don't gate the perks that way. As some other comment mentioned above: This is done way better in some mods. I haven't played darkness falls yet, but it is similar in war of the walkers... much better! Even WITH real classes.

I'm saying the predefined combo is not too powerful. That step from perk level 4 to 5 is noticable but with a few exceptions it doesn't matter greatly if you have perks at level 4 or 5.

Why do you compare pistol + blades lvl5 with marksman + blades only lvl4?

Both are just one ranged and one melee weapon. Why should i have the one combo on 5 but the otherone only on 4?

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game.

Huh? Do you mean my post? Hell no! I even dislike the shooter part of the game, i'm the survival guy. There is nothing tactical. But i still prefer some kind of weapons because i like their handling and playstyle, not their combat-tactical use. If we are playing in larger groups, i usually don't even attend the looting (therefore lucky looter on my char is basically almost worthless).

We have others in our group that play more or less only for going berserk through bloodmoons, but they also do not play what they prefer, they min-max like the skill tree says them to do. Most of them of course go for the M60... guess what melee weapon they fight? Hint: almost all of them think that fists are the worst melee weapon at all. But all of them use them. (at least as long as they have maxed out the M60 and have some skill points left to start another tree with a preferred melee weapon, if they even play that far).

If you want to avoid somebody makes an AGI build while using a M60, put a movement nerf on the gun itself. I mean it's obvious that a guy carrying a heavy machine gun moves slower than a guy just carrying a hunting knive. Maybe 10% slower if active, still 5% slower if on toolbelt. Now someone could decide if he wants to go AGI + pistols for moving ultra fast or maybe still use a M60 and skill AGI to compensate the movement nerf.

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

 

[meganoth]

But why should marksman + blade have disadvantages over marksman + spear or blade + pistol?

Last two are both in the same tree and require only perception OR agility.

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

And i still don't have other skills from any of these trees. In case of 3 your spear and pistols are also increased because they are included in PER and AGI, so i HAVE to invest skillpoints for those even if i don't want to use them. Who decided that marksman is combined with spears and pistols are combined with blades? What "roles/classes" should this be? Is it common that a pistol guy uses blades in meele but not clubs or spears? Yeah maybe a "hunter" uses marksman and spears... but he also uses knifes, doesn't he?

I'm not better in mining because i don't even put points into miner 69er and motherlode as these are in the strength tree which i haven't skilled at all. I also have no trader skills as the base attributes PER and AGI only buff weapons, they don't give anything else. I am also not yet better in looting and salvaging until i put ADDITONAL points into salvage operation and lucky looter. But why is a "hunter" better in salvaging or looting? I usually even stay with my role of a "hunter" and are that one that provides food for the group. Maybe call it the "support" role. I need living of the land, huntsman and master chef (this can at least be gained by skillbooks), which are again in two different trees... i have none of. At least animal tracker is already under perception.

What you call "i'm already better in other things" is exactly what my problem is. Yes, i'm better or lets say i can become better with few skillpoints in some skills. But that are not necessarily the skills i want. But because i can get them with less effort, i'm "forced" to take them. I can't play like i want to play, i have to play like the perk system "forces" me to.

At least my weapon choice would not be that way predefined if the base perks didn't buff SPECIFIC weapons.

That is exactly what i meant: Either you want roles/classes, then introduce roles but also put the according skills into it. Or you do not want roles/classes, then don't gate the perks that way. As some other comment mentioned above: This is done way better in some mods. I haven't played darkness falls yet, but it is similar in war of the walkers... much better! Even WITH real classes.

Why do you compare pistol + blades lvl5 with marksman + blades only lvl4?

Both are just one ranged and one melee weapon. Why should i have the one combo on 5 but the otherone only on 4?

Huh? Do you mean my post? Hell no! I even dislike the shooter part of the game, i'm the survival guy. There is nothing tactical. But i still prefer some kind of weapons because i like their handling and playstyle, not their combat-tactical use. If we are playing in larger groups, i usually don't even attend the looting (therefore lucky looter on my char is basically almost worthless).

We have others in our group that play more or less only for going berserk through bloodmoons, but they also do not play what they prefer, they min-max like the skill tree says them to do. Most of them of course go for the M60... guess what melee weapon they fight? Hint: almost all of them think that fists are the worst melee weapon at all. But all of them use them. (at least as long as they have maxed out the M60 and have some skill points left to start another tree with a preferred melee weapon, if they even play that far).

If you want to avoid somebody makes an AGI build while using a M60, put a movement nerf on the gun itself. I mean it's obvious that a guy carrying a heavy machine gun moves slower than a guy just carrying a hunting knive. Maybe 10% slower if active, still 5% slower if on toolbelt. Now someone could decide if he wants to go AGI + pistols for moving ultra fast or maybe still use a M60 and skill AGI to compensate the movement nerf.

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

My second posting was in reply to a post by Tahaan. Look up his post if you want to know what we were talking about. You can easily find such a post by following the links who look like arrows on the right side of the quoted section.

Your M60 movement nerf isn't a bad idea. There are still 34(?) other perks to balance so someone mixing and matching won't just speedrun through the game with the optimal combination. And most people would just play the same ~8 perks every time. In A18 it was the first time I set up the plan to spec every attribute at least once in the next 5 playthroughs. Previously there was no incentive at all to deviate. Either go for what you like best or as minmaxer take the best combination of perks.

But the general idea of this current perk system is (presumably) to provide some predefined roles so people think about changing their play style from time to time and make balancing somewhat manageable by the team. It isn't optimal and some of the roles have a bit random bits in them. But for example the huntsman role you talk about does not exist in the game because the huntsman mini-game in 7D2D is of minimal importance, you can hardly make a complete role out of it.

If you like the system in some mods better, good for you. Play them. I tried some of them and especially the ones just mimicking old alphas are not my cup of tea, but they are there for players wanting something else. Or just mod Blades to be in perception and play that till the end of time (a crude mod to do this is probably done in a few minutes)

 

[Roland]

I'm not complaining about getting the best-DPS-weapon in the game combined with sneaking. I complain about that weapons and skills are tied together. You have no choice on how to combine them, because the predefined combinations are to powerfull to not use them. 7d2d does not make you choose between mage or dual-class battle mage, it makes you choose if you want to play a firemage-tank or a icemage-dps-dealer or an earthmage-support. Every other combination is not practical as "cross skilling" is far to expensive and still there is no way you will make your mage ever good in using swords. 

I prefer to play the weapon i like, not the game tells me to. In my case my preferred weapons are marksman rifle and blades. Both are not the best dps dealers. But i like to do well placed shots over distance instead of bullet spam like an AK or M60. In meele i like fast attacks and i like the damge-over-time effect of bleeding. I won't crush a zombie with one hit like with a super slow sledgehammer. But the game says: NO. You want blades, then use pistols. Or you want sniper, then use spears (which is not even really meele if throwing them is the way to go). So i already have to dual-skill. Still not mentioned what i want to do not regarded to combat. Miner? Have fun, then you are already at triple skill.

1) Marksman + Spear: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead eye + 5 SP javelin master = 26 SP

2) Pistol + Blades: 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for gunslinger + 5 SP deep cuts = 26 SP

3) Marksman + Blades: 16 SP for perception + 5 SP for dead exe + 16 SP for agility + 5 SP for deep cuts = 42 SP (almost double!)

There are so many possibilites, but why do you make base attributes buff specific weapons and even tie specific weapons together? With that system i wouldn't even call PER, STR, FOR, AGI, INT "base" attributes, but they are weapon skills. The whole skilltree is built up on WEAPON skills!

I like the current perk system but these are excellent points and good criticisms of the system that I can't deny. I do disagree with you on asking for pre-defined classes because I like that you can build your own class by the combination of perks you can choose. I do acknowledge that the number of combinations is more limited than it would be if governing attributes were not so tied to specific weapons.

I do think that if ultimate freedom were given so that it was just as cheap to combine any favored melee weapon with any favored ranged weapon that most of the weapons would be ignored as players gravitated to the ultimate couple they prefered. There is some fun in picking an attribute and focusing on the weapons within that attribute for one playthrough and then picking a different attribute and focusing on the weapons for that one. However, there would be nothing stopping us from doing that either if the weapons were unlinked from the attributes. Only the min-maxers would lock themselves into the same two weapons every time and then complain that the game has no variety....

@meganoth what mods did you try to alter the perk system? Was there one that decoupled the weapons from the attributes?

 

[Liesel Weppen]

If you like the system in some mods better, good for you. Play them. I tried some of them and especially the ones just mimicking old alphas are not my cup of tea, but they are there for players wanting something else. Or just mod Blades to be in perception and play that till the end of time (a crude mod to do this is probably done in a few minutes)

Wtih this discussion i already thought if i should take a look into the xmls and try to mod it myself. Maybe i take a look at the A19 system and if it is still what i dislike in A18, probably i try to mod A19 then.

The other mods like war of the walkers are total conversions but i do also like playing vanilla, so basically a skill-system only mod would be in my interest.

Anyway of course it can be modded, but imho this should be changed in vanilla.

However, there would be nothing stopping us from doing that either if the weapons were unlinked from the attributes. Only the min-maxers would lock themselves into the same two weapons every time and then complain that the game has no variety....

Imho it is not the task of the game to "force" players trying different ways. As you say, one would never try, anotherone will even try if the system disadvantages him when doing this.

I tried a lot from A15 on. I tried different weapons before A18, where this was not "forced". I did not only try different weapon builds, but also completely different playstyles with cheese bases, underground base, over-hill-base, living in all different biomes, even playthroughs with no-building or never-us-a-base-for-bloodmoon-twice. The game didn't encourage me to do this, but i did. Other players prefer to play a 100s of playthroughs with always the same style. If they want that, let them do this.

I also tried different builds in A18, because of the skillsystem, but in later games i always ended up skilling multiple trees with the same char, as i didn't like the system-defined "roles" and preferred to combine weapons and tasks like i prefer them, even if that costed me way more skillpoints. But it still anoyed me with this system, because it took much longer to reach the build like i want it. Either i crossskilled from the beginning and it takes ages until you can do what you want to do in a good/efficient way or you skilled one task after another and ended up with long times where you could do some task almost not at all.

 

[FileMachete]

I do think that if ultimate freedom were given so that it was just as cheap to combine any favored melee weapon with any favored ranged weapon that most of the weapons would be ignored as players gravitated to the ultimate couple they prefered.

I don't disagree. But it makes me wish there was more 'depth' to the various weapons+skills. Not to ultimately make them all the same, that'd be silly. But maybe do a focused pass on highlighting the various negatives to help differenciate them more.

While I get it, no real encumberance/mass limits, for examples sake consider if there were;

Which would be better then, SMG, AK or M60?

Now the situation plays a significant role.

Static location, lots of zeds? M60.

Semi-static, or roving base defense, likely the AK.

Running all over, clearing unfamiliar POIs? SMG. (for x pounds there's about double the number of 9mm rounds vs 7.62)

I think it'd be great if it were possible to leverage some thing or mechanic to get players to naturally consider what they're going to do, and have reasons & trade-offs to choose various, and different, load outs before heading out to do X Y or Z.

 

[diegodgo87]

I don't think so. They play 7D2D as a team-based tactical shooter game. I can't really judge if that is fun in 7D2D for the long term because I don't play such squad based games (I can't even remember the name of a typical game of that genre), I'm not part of the target group. But for POI clearing even I can see the fun in being part of a well-oiled tactical group with everyone having a different task and training to have a blind understanding what everyone else is doing at the moment. 

Yeah, that how my team plays the game, pure tactical and we love it.

 

[Darthjake]

Headshot damage is added to every headshot with the fitting weapon.

Sneak damage is only added on the first shot since after that you are not hidden anymore. But the damage increase is applied to any sneak damage not only to headshots

If you are playing multi, stand up, and then stealth again, the Z should aggro on the other player who is still standing up.  I've gotten multiple stealth hits/kills this way.

 

[meganoth]

I like the current perk system but these are excellent points and good criticisms of the system that I can't deny. I do disagree with you on asking for pre-defined classes because I like that you can build your own class by the combination of perks you can choose. I do acknowledge that the number of combinations is more limited than it would be if governing attributes were not so tied to specific weapons.

I do think that if ultimate freedom were given so that it was just as cheap to combine any favored melee weapon with any favored ranged weapon that most of the weapons would be ignored as players gravitated to the ultimate couple they prefered. There is some fun in picking an attribute and focusing on the weapons within that attribute for one playthrough and then picking a different attribute and focusing on the weapons for that one. However, there would be nothing stopping us from doing that either if the weapons were unlinked from the attributes. Only the min-maxers would lock themselves into the same two weapons every time and then complain that the game has no variety....

@meganoth what mods did you try to alter the perk system? Was there one that decoupled the weapons from the attributes?

All the typical total conversion mods because my group on the multiplayer server wants to play something new each playthrough. I did not specifically look for mods to change the perk system but all total conversions do anyway. The only lightweight mod we did try was your 0xp mod.