PC "Civilized PvP system"

its not just about killing other players. its cool to have other threats like player bandits that want to steal your loot while scavenging, and raiding other bases
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I agree with Sylen's earlier post.

PvP in this game I feel is very nearly a lost cause. It might sound nice to have the human challenge element, sure, but no matter what TFP does, griefers will find a way around their rules, and in a game where constructing bases can be a big timesink I don't think many people are really going to want to see that done over in a heartbeat, by fair means or foul.

 
i have played 1500 hours in pvp only, and never saw "griefers", building base on pvp server, player is aware of it being destroyed unless server have rules not destorying other bases. i never got fresh spawn killed, always playing on populated servers.

 
i have played 1500 hours in pvp only, and never saw "griefers", building base on pvp server, player is aware of it being destroyed unless server have rules not destorying other bases. i never got fresh spawn killed, always playing on populated servers.
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Your experience certainly differs from mine, though admittedly, it's been a few Alpha's since I last PVP'd or have friends who did.

I'm not suggesting the Pimps should take out PVP altogether, but that human inventiveness is never so furiously and doggedly deployed as when one of our kind tries to screw over another. PVP should remain in the game basically as it is, I think, there, but with the strongly bolded caveat that "Civilized PvP" is, more or less, an oxymoron.

 
The official answer has already been given. There will be a separate mode that is designed from the ground up to be PvP. They understand the issues with duping, clipping underground to get a cheating view, and the networking issues caused by voxels and chunk loading. They plan to address these issues for PvP separate from the core game. It just isn't their focus now.

For those who like using the core game for PvP regardless of imbalances you'll be able to continue to do that too.

 
The official answer has already been given. There will be a separate mode that is designed from the ground up to be PvP. They understand the issues with duping, clipping underground to get a cheating view, and the networking issues caused by voxels and chunk loading. They plan to address these issues for PvP separate from the core game. It just isn't their focus now.
For those who like using the core game for PvP regardless of imbalances you'll be able to continue to do that too.
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Well that summed that all up nicely...

Thanks Roland the supermod(el) :D

Guess I missed that official statement on the PvP. So thanks for dropping it here as well.

 
but with the strongly bolded caveat that "Civilized PvP" is, more or less, an oxymoron.
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Hardly, especially in RP servers in most free pvp games I have played. The presumption that all players who engage in PvP are griefers or will do anything to harass is a misconception, like pretty much every generalization.

The official answer has already been given. There will be a separate mode that is designed from the ground up to be PvP. They understand the issues with duping, clipping underground to get a cheating view, and the networking issues caused by voxels and chunk loading. They plan to address these issues for PvP separate from the core game. It just isn't their focus now.
For those who like using the core game for PvP regardless of imbalances you'll be able to continue to do that too.
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If it is anything like I imagine it to be, given various tfp replies, (arena-like, giving everyone equal-ish opportunities, taking out most of the progression curve and many features to make for a faster/less complex gameplay progression), the whole point of a realistic world will be lost to me. But let's just wait and see.

 
If it is anything like I imagine it to be, given various tfp replies, (arena-like, giving everyone equal-ish opportunities, taking out most of the progression curve and many features to make for a faster/less complex gameplay progression), the whole point of a realistic world will be lost to me. But let's just wait and see.
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Yes, that's true-- but arena-like Battle Royale is also popular. As I said, for those who like using the core game for PvP despite it's flaws (and who know the people they play with aren't dirty rotten cheaters)-- they will still be able to do so just as they do now and once full mod support comes you should be able to tailor it to whatever you want it to be a lot more easily.

 
The official answer has already been given. There will be a separate mode that is designed from the ground up to be PvP.
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This sounds too optimistic to me ;)

The game has taken so many years to develop and it is still not gold yet.. will TFP have the time to do this as well? I'm not that sure..

 
Bethesda just tried to do what we were talking about: PvE and PvP in the same game at the same time.
Can't wait to play fallout 76!

Let's hope it is successful so maybe we can learn something from it (;
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Successful or unsuccessful there's always something to learn

 
i have played 1500 hours in pvp only, and never saw "griefers", building base on pvp server, player is aware of it being destroyed unless server have rules not destorying other bases. i never got fresh spawn killed, always playing on populated servers.
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I've played about the same amount and I've been griefed many times. Most recently I had a cheater join and he was flying and invisible and had like... dynamite hands? So every time he punched it was like a cop explosion. He went at about 50x normal speed and just zoomed around the map leveling everything in sight and goring out underground bases.

Most normal instances of cheating are people who use bedroll/LCB/player location tracking and hone in on your base with duped gear and try to fight you or place 1000 landmines or something. They're usually bad at PvP so it doesn't really matter but it's annoying that the damage they inflict isn't legit. The Chinese are especially notorious for this but I'm hoping with the advent of PUBG that we see less of them in A17 since they're all over there trying to cheat at that game.

In general I think having my base compromised is not as bad as having the entire thing gutted by a cheater who is bypassing LCB claims and literally destroying every block. If my base is raided, closing up the holes and learning lessons from the method of raiding is not that bad. At least I still have the main structure which I invested most of my time and energy in. And if it's beyond hope, then I learned something new to make my next base even better!

 
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This sounds too optimistic to me ;) The game has taken so many years to develop and it is still not gold yet.. will TFP have the time to do this as well? I'm not that sure..
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heh..I never said it would happen before gold. It won't. I agree that would be way too optimistic. :)

 
The official answer has already been given. There will be a separate mode that is designed from the ground up to be PvP. They understand the issues with duping, clipping underground to get a cheating view, and the networking issues caused by voxels and chunk loading. They plan to address these issues for PvP separate from the core game. It just isn't their focus now.
For those who like using the core game for PvP regardless of imbalances you'll be able to continue to do that too.
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And a very deep thanx for that. It's something that is very rare these days in developers. Too often pve is destroyed to balance pvp, vice verse. Then devs spend patches balancing out. only to have to do it again when something is added or subtracted.

Let's see if the usual counter comes out about separating the 2.

 
heh..I never said it would happen before gold. It won't. I agree that would be way too optimistic. :)
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I did not mean that it is optimistic for it to happen before gold, I said it is optimistic to happen at all :/

 
I did not mean that it is optimistic for it to happen before gold, I said it is optimistic to happen at all :/
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I think the Pimps have done enough with 7D2D, and been open and honest enough when they've hit obstacles to not regard that as optimistic.

Will it be ready "on time" (whenever that's due)? Probably not. Will it be everything PvP'ers all want (given they'll all want different things)? Certainly not.

But I do expect it to happen, in time.

 
Hardly, especially in RP servers in most free pvp games I have played. The presumption that all players who engage in PvP are griefers or will do anything to harass is a misconception, like pretty much every generalization.
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I was not intending on making a generalisation at all. I dislike them just as you seem to do.

The issue with griefers in PvP is, while only a very small minority of PvP'ers, their effects are relatively large. It only takes one griefer on a server to completely destroy a base down to its last block, bypassing LCB's, clipping through terrain etc.

 
I was not intending on making a generalisation at all. I dislike them just as you seem to do.
The issue with griefers in PvP is, while only a very small minority of PvP'ers, their effects are relatively large. It only takes one griefer on a server to completely destroy a base down to its last block, bypassing LCB's, clipping through terrain etc.
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And to create lasting unpleasant impressions, true. These can be mitigated though with the right mechanics. For example as I mentioned in the OP the custom plugin I wrote for my MC server allowed only a small percentage of a claimed land to be destroyed, allowing both for raids and making griefing impossible at the same time. I believe there is a solution for everything (at least everything game-related) only limited by imagination.

Bethesda just tried to do what we were talking about: PvE and PvP in the same game at the same time.
Can't wait to play fallout 76!

Let's hope it is successful so maybe we can learn something from it (;
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I am pretty confident it will be successful since a lot of money were invested in this project and they hopefully have learned from the mistakes of Ark/Rust/DayZ/H1N1 and other similar games that included pvp. Todd called it a "softcore survival" though, hope it's not too softcore so that survival is engaging enough.

 
And to create lasting unpleasant impressions, true. These can be mitigated though with the right mechanics. For example as I mentioned in the OP the custom plugin I wrote for my MC server allowed only a small percentage of a claimed land to be destroyed, allowing both for raids and making griefing impossible at the same time. I believe there is a solution for everything (at least everything game-related) only limited by imagination.


I am pretty confident it will be successful since a lot of money were invested in this project and they hopefully have learned from the mistakes of Ark/Rust/DayZ/H1N1 and other similar games that included pvp. Todd called it a "softcore survival" though, hope it's not too softcore so that survival is engaging enough.
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I am not too enthused about fallout 76. I have a suspicion that it will turn into "elder scrolls online: fallout". Hopefully i will be wrong....

I had a cannibal role play server set up a while back. i invited a lot of friends, but only a select few were told what it was. The few i told were on team "cannibal" and everyone else was left to fend for themselves. The cannibals would then plot out strategic raids to attack the factions/other players that had no idea what was going on. settings where drop everything on death.

The problem with PVP is that the lack of end game content holds it back. What is the point to surviving? what is the point to build a giant fortress? So far with multiplayer it is either boring pve or a long term arena death match griefing contest in a giant arena.

 
I am not convinced that a solution to PVP will ever be found. The player winning a PVP battle will never feel like they are griefing. Players who lose quickly to other players and then being raided will feel like the player is cheating. Having the anonymity of not being in person lets people feel like they can say what they want. This is the toxic trash talk that happens. Creating systems to counter this will just piss off the hardcore PVPer's who feel that the game constrains them.

Really the issue is that people can feel how they want, and act how they feel the should be able to act. Think of the book "Lord of the Flies". It is only the pressure of society and it's established norms that keep things in check. Games like this require active and fair administrators for PVP to work. If a player has a connection to a servers community and fears social repercussions from that community, they will follow the rules and not be toxic.

Really what is needed are good tools for the administrators to find the truth of a conflict and enforce the rules they have established. With good tools, an admin can swing the stick justly and help shape their communities way of thinking. If all the players on a server are reasonable , respectful, and overall just being decent, then it doesn't matter the rules of a game.

That's just my 2 dukes.

 
IMO, a "ritualised" or moderated PVP system is likely to work better for 7DTD because the core of the game is heavy on progression and building.
This isn't Team Counterfield 7 where you hop in and kill bozos.

The "problem" here is the strong following of co-op / PVE players who for the most part still want to play the game instead of abandoning that and switching to a radically different playstyle just because it's PVP.

Are these people all wrong?

These are players and fans of the game so bugger that notion!

_Could_ the game "be better for PVP"? I guess so. But IMO that takes a different rule set and as mentioned before, some system of quicker building/repairing.
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I actually strongly dislike pvp in survival type games, as the point of most of them is to survive vs the environment, once you throw pvp in there, it just becomes a gankfest. Don't try to say it doesn't it ALWAYS ends up this way no matter what kind of rules they try to do. Will to Live Online has a thing where if you pk someone in cold blood anyone can hunt you for a while with no penalty, and this still doesn't deter greifing and such at all, they just do it all the more, and now aim for new players even more that have no chance in hell to actually kill them.

The best way to put pvp in these games, is to have a seperate zone for it, that once you walk into it, its open pvp. I used to play a mmorpg that did this, most of the game is pve, however, there is a open pvp zone where rare resources only spawn there, and you have to build and protect extractors from other factions to get the rare mats. The fuel to run said extractors are also made by players, as almost all items in the game are player made. So even someone who doesn't wanna pvp can get in on it by providing fuel to sell to the pvpers. Full open pvp never works in a game these days as most pvpers have no respect for any other player in todays gaming world. It was different years ago. I used to play alot of open pvp games back then and they never had the greifing problems the games do today.

For me I don't mind open pvp if there is no item loss for me if I get ganked, and if my base can't be nuked.. well the base thing depends, if its fast to rebuild its not so bad, like say fortnights pve side, its easy to rebuild. But in 7 days to die? hell no it takes way to much time to build and gather stuff only for a player to destroy it in minutes. Players only need a 1 wide 2 high entry to get into your base. I';ve never been a fan of pvp systems that force loss of progression when you get killed by another player, by item loss or other such things, as it just fuels greifers to do it more. Even more so if the items you drop can be looted by said greifer.

 
I actually strongly dislike pvp in survival type games, as the point of most of them is to survive vs the environment, once you throw pvp in there, it just becomes a gankfest. Don't try to say it doesn't it ALWAYS ends up this way no matter what kind of rules they try to do. Will to Live Online has a thing where if you pk someone in cold blood anyone can hunt you for a while with no penalty, and this still doesn't deter greifing and such at all, they just do it all the more, and now aim for new players even more that have no chance in hell to actually kill them.
The best way to put pvp in these games, is to have a seperate zone for it, that once you walk into it, its open pvp. I used to play a mmorpg that did this, most of the game is pve, however, there is a open pvp zone where rare resources only spawn there, and you have to build and protect extractors from other factions to get the rare mats. The fuel to run said extractors are also made by players, as almost all items in the game are player made. So even someone who doesn't wanna pvp can get in on it by providing fuel to sell to the pvpers. Full open pvp never works in a game these days as most pvpers have no respect for any other player in todays gaming world. It was different years ago. I used to play alot of open pvp games back then and they never had the greifing problems the games do today.

For me I don't mind open pvp if there is no item loss for me if I get ganked, and if my base can't be nuked.. well the base thing depends, if its fast to rebuild its not so bad, like say fortnights pve side, its easy to rebuild. But in 7 days to die? hell no it takes way to much time to build and gather stuff only for a player to destroy it in minutes. Players only need a 1 wide 2 high entry to get into your base. I';ve never been a fan of pvp systems that force loss of progression when you get killed by another player, by item loss or other such things, as it just fuels greifers to do it more. Even more so if the items you drop can be looted by said greifer.
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Your not going to like fallout 76 then, as part of the gameplay will be finding nuke sites and using the codes to launch orbital strikes on player bases. Basically it will turn into a buggier version of a modded minecraft nukecraft server.

 
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