PC "Civilized PvP system"

If you were to throw the feature in without any resemblance of a design, then yes. Total bust. =)
So what if the zombie player can ghost near a player and "get up from the ground" in a dark corner the player has no LOS to?

Of course players would loudly complain about zombies just spawning in the world where they had just been looking... but it's a game... with enemies that just plain spawn wherever level designers put them.

You dont want to be surprised by such a zombie? Pay attention to dark corners and tight turns. =)
I think a zombie controlled by a player would be more challenging than the AI, and could be reasonably balanced.

Maybe player zombies can sprint, and have some level of regen, but maybe a player controlled zombie is smart enough to back up and flank instead of coming straight at you. Or could dodge arrows.

Maybe when the zombie is killed, the player immediately takes control of another zombie and continues the fight.

 
Funny it's like arguing with a child who refuses to listen when he is told by multiple people that it's not as simple as tweaking a few numbers.

You've again completely refused to acknowledge that your solution has more holes then Swiss cheese and is completed unworkable.

You've again refused to acknowledge that every game in history has been unable to balance PvP without effecting pve and your only argument is that someone can innovate and do it. I poked holes into several of your examples and if I wanted to spend more time researching 20 year old games I could post more. Except you'd just claim it's not proof because people complaining about nerfs aren't proof......

Feel free to try to design your magic system that accomplished what no one else has. Feel free to ignore the actual game developers telling you that doing so is nowhere near as simple as you are trying to pretend it is. Clearly you know better then the devs here and you know better then every software developer in history

Feel free to ignore the basic facts that games require balance to be successful.

You can live in ignorance and a fantasy world. The rest of us will live in reality.

Thank God for the ignore button.

 
SylenThunder mentioned some of the reasons it worked - the idea of this thread is essentially to replicate and adjust them here. .
Oh also I loved the selective reading comprehension here. Guess you ignored his entire section when he said

The real call here is to design the game to support more players, and this specific type of PvP gameplay. Which really isn't ideal for this type of game. Designing a game of this nature to be balanced for that type of gameplay is no easy feat. With enough modding, a good server manager, and multiple extremely active admins it could possibly be done as the game sits now. Unfortunately, that is a hell of a lot of time and effort to put into something with little actual reward.

Denial is a powerful tool. Again he agrees with everyone else. Trying to design the game for PVP is incredibly complex as everyone has been telling you.
[/QUOTE]
 
Funny it's like arguing with a child who refuses to listen when he is told by multiple people that it's not as simple as tweaking a few numbers.
I am not the one throwing a tantrum my friend...

What some other people said, is that to tweak numbers won't be nearly enough to balance PvP. What you don't seem to get that I am saying, is that such kind of balance is not needed in the first place. And that's for tweaking damage to offer the new player decent odds - the whole pvp system will obviously need much more tinkering than that, but still less than new content such as bandits, as I also mentioned probably a dozen times until now, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

You've again completely refused to acknowledge that your solution has more holes then Swiss cheese and is completed unworkable.
I wonder about that...

But I never said I had all the perfect solutions to the perfect system anyway
Full of holes - it should be, because (again) as mentioned, these things were written on the fly. However the scenarios you presented as holes in your earlier posts were easily counter-able by simple solutions as explained in those posts.

You've again refused to acknowledge that every game in history has been unable to balance PvP without effecting pve and your only argument is that someone can innovate and do it.
You seem to know a lot about game history for someone who hasn't played the games I mentioned. They were quite successful in doing that in fact. And once again, yes, only taking into account "what older games did/didn't" and concluding that something "can/can't" be done just because or that reason is a poor way of thinking.

I poked holes into several of your examples and if I wanted to spend more time researching 20 year old games I could post more. Except you'd just claim it's not proof because people complaining about nerfs aren't proof......
People will post about anything - they will play overpowered builds/have a disappointing duel experience etc (in either PvE or PvP) because of a design flaw in a patch, a random gameplay occurrence or their own shortcomings and will instantly complain on the forums for it. If you really thought that could be regarded as proof, then what can I say? Power to you I guess?

Feel free to try to design your magic system that accomplished what no one else has. Feel free to ignore the actual game developers telling you that doing so is nowhere near as simple as you are trying to pretend it is. Clearly you know better then the devs here and you know better then every software developer in history. Feel free to ignore the basic facts that games require balance to be successful.
Lots of snark, little substance. It's definitely simpler than dishing out new content yes. It involves changing several scripts, as long as you don't believe that you need to "balance" everything in order for people to enjoy this mode, that is. In fact, being one of those who would enjoy this kind of mode, "balance" would only make things more unrealistic. I would prefer to stand a chance for starters, and work my way up. The basic fact that games require balance to be successful, right. Well it seems you are more of an expert than me if you know that basic fact. If only it was that simple...

You can live in ignorance and a fantasy world. The rest of us will live in reality.

Thank God for the ignore button.
Such hostility, you must be a PvP player! (Doesn't beat your previous remark, but it was a good one, you have to admit it).

 
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Oh also I loved the selective reading comprehension here. Guess you ignored his entire section when he said
Denial is a powerful tool. Again he agrees with everyone else. Trying to design the game for PVP is incredibly complex as everyone has been telling you.
Almost missed that one. Let's see whose reading comprehension suffers in this thread:

SylenThunder mentioned some of the reasons it worked...
Did he...? *Drumroll*

Back in the days of Meridian59, UO and some of the very early multiplayer games, PvP was very competitive. There was a "code" of sorts though, and there were very close-knit communities. You helped the lower leveled players gear up. You taught them the ins and outs. Where to go, what to kill, and who to watch out for. Anyone killing a player at a significant disadvantage to themselves faced penalties whether through the game mechanics themselves, or by the communities.
He did. And I was glad that I wasn't the only one here with such previous experiences. Then what did I say?

...the idea of this thread is essentially to replicate and adjust them here.
Now questions : Did I ever say he agreed with me? No. Instead he posed some questions/problems with substance. Like a breath of fresh air in this conversation we are having I'd say. Keywords - "replicate", "adjust".

Again, incredibly complex, only for the reason that you believe that balance is essential for this mode - and once more, it's strange to have such a strong opinion about something you won't play, while others who would play this mode have already expressed what I am telling you.

 
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Again, incredibly complex, only for the reason that you believe that balance is essential for this mode - and once more, it's strange to have such a strong opinion about something you won't play, while others who would play this mode have already expressed what I am telling you.
I like that because it means no work whatsoever needs to be done. =P

On a more serious note: I don't see TFP releasing such a dedicated PVP mode without a playable balance...

A game without balance is really just a tech demo.

 
I like that because it means no work whatsoever needs to be done. =P
On a more serious note: I don't see TFP releasing such a dedicated PVP mode without a playable balance...

A game without balance is really just a tech demo.
See, I have your best interest at heart! :p

But I wouldn't say it would not be playable for three reasons. First reason is that PvP would be toned-down and more infrequent. Not with the degree most of us have known it (players happily killing/griefing here and there). Second reason would be that tech progression is not that lengthy, at least compared to how long-term these servers can become (especially with a new player's grace period). Medkit abundance particularly as Brian mentioned will make the old player's advantage quite large, but keep in mind that players who will seek such servers enjoy adversity in the first place, which is the third reason. Obviously I can't speak for all the players who would enjoy such a setting, I am not a mind reader, so I am strictly speaking for myself.

As for balance in general, it is a tricky thing especially when you want to replicate a "realistic" situation. I would definitely be in favor of a perfect balance in the weapon mods matter for example. Tuning them to make then chase-worthy, them being rare enough for them to last as a game goal etc. Or food abundance - making enough food available to the player so that hunger doesnt become trivial and so on. And in general I do believe that gameplay > realism, but in this case, as I said above, I don't really believe it would be something that would hurt gameplay.

 
I like that because it means no work whatsoever needs to be done. =P
On a more serious note: I don't see TFP releasing such a dedicated PVP mode without a playable balance...

A game without balance is really just a tech demo.
Yeah I can't believe someone is actually advocating for a game to be unbalanced. That is literally a first for me. I can picture the backlash if TFP did that with all the people demanding it be balanced.

 
my biggest thing in this game is offline base raiding. i love pvp in the game and only play on pvp servers, but it gets kinda lame when people you battle sit there and wait for you to log off before they raid you. i wish there was something like in LIF where your base is only up for raid on a set timer. so say every other day for 3 hours all bases are up for raid or something like that.

also has anybody come up with a mod yet for factions? could be somthing as simple as if you build north of 0 your part of the red team if you build south of it your on the blue team. you cant pvp or raid your own team, you need to go into enemy lands for that.

i dunno just a few ideas

 
Ya know... another method that would work for PvP are AI driven NPC's to meet out punishment if x/y/z criteria are met...

Just like the po-po in real life. Get caught? Do the time. Get caught but get away? Your profile was radio'd in, so you're no longer welcome at traders, there are npc's actively after you, etc...

 
I didn't read the whole topic but looking at the original post reminds me of the old Ultima Online PvP system which was really fun, with grey name criminals and red name murderers and how being a criminal or murderer changed your relationship with the world and the guarded cities, and also changed the way other players and npcs interacted with you to a certain degree. I think that fundamental idea is workable and I could see it being really neat as a 7 Days gameplay mechanic. The UI for seeing other player names would have to be adjusted, right now it's too hard to identify a target from outside of melee range.

Signed, a PvP fanatic (1000+ hours PvP experience over dozens of servers)

 
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clues for sale

My question, as always, is why have we not seen a civilized PvP mod? Let's go modders! Supposedly once this mod comes out ALL the servers will be running it
Well Roland, you see, you are part of the problem along with all the other anti pvp posters here because you dont play 7dtd pvp (and no a few hours before you got killed/raided and rage quit does not count, at all.

After almost 12k hours of 7dtd pvp I can educate you that I have seen many many well done pvp mods which offer pretty much all the features people want although they currently sit across different mods so no single mod gives you everything.

There are only 2 things that matter in 7dtd pvp, these are risk v reward and time.

Risk v reward relates to the effort taken to gather resources v the ease in which you can lose them. Most pvp servers (and I have played on literally hundreds) prefer drop all on death as this adds what most pvp players consider to be the correct and most realistic level of risk. Many pvp servers will set their claim protection slightly higher than normal to offset this so that you may get sniped with a full inventory after scavenging for a couple hours BUT your base is highly protected and difficult to break into. To many players this adds a lot of tension and spices up the gameplay, especially when you are carrying some really good items and just want to get back to your base.

Drop all on death also means that if raiders do come then they risk losing all those nice tools and weapons and gas they brought to raid you so it makes raiding a very risky business.

The time element is common to online multiplayer games and can be summed up simply; 'Players with more time to play will progress faster in gear and levels than players with less time to play'

Time has always been like this, just like in life, the longer and harder you work the better and quicker your rewards and 7dtd is a game that rewards time spent more than any other thing.

These 2 elements, risk v reward and time, encapsulate a lot of what 7dtd pvp is about but without many many hundreds or thousands of hours playing, competing, fighting in this environment you simply dont have the knowledge of the metagame to be making silly blase comments as if you know all about it because neither you nor the other pvp haters on here do.

Its been said a million times but i will say it again, let the server owners pick their options as they please (as they do today) and if you dont like pvp then dont f******* play it, go pve.

If you want to 'fix' pvp then unnerf sound distance somewhat, it used to be silly that you could hear some things from way too far but now its gone too much the other way.

if you want to make some changes that are so simple any decent modder (even me) could do them in a couple of hours) and that work for pve too, then add more weapons, armour and legendary type items plus different level of tools.

Thats all you have to do, leave the community you hate (and yet who pay part of your bills..) alone, let people play how they want to and put in some cool thing that can be enjoyed by both communities.

Drops mike...

 
If you want to 'fix' pvp then unnerf sound distance somewhat, it used to be silly that you could hear some things from way too far but now its gone too much the other way.
I miss the big sound radii

It made detective work and even just working in your base so much more entertaining. You used to have to literally decide if it was worth it to run a forge and emit all that noise attracting unwanted pvp attention.

The best change to PvP thus far has been limiting the game world to 10km x 10km

 
My question, as always, is why have we not seen a civilized PvP mod? Let's go modders! Supposedly once this mod comes out ALL the servers will be running it
Because dll modify results killing EAC.

...just a thought.

 
I didn't read the whole topic but looking at the original post reminds me of the old Ultima Online PvP system which was really fun, with grey name criminals and red name murderers and how being a criminal or murderer changed your relationship with the world and the guarded cities, and also changed the way other players and npcs interacted with you to a certain degree.
These were the days!

Drops mike...
This a good post. I never took up modding in 7dtd as my time is limited nowadays in general, so I do not know their limits or how well some things can be implemented with them. Would it be possible to replicate most of the features I mention in the OP for example with mods?

To be honest, I also belong to the people who haven't pvp'ed much in this game. The reason I don't like pvp (at least in the servers I've tried it) at the moment is because I find it a bit unrealistic for the following reason: People kill without much thought and pvp is continuous. As a consequence zombies take the backseat when it comes to threats. In a more "realistic" setting, raids and human threats should be more sporadic and one oughts to give it a second thought before he turns hostile to someone he meets, or pulls that trigger to get his items - there is no "counterweight". Things may change a bit in pvp as well with the new attribute system and deaths. We will see.

Ya know... another method that would work for PvP are AI driven NPC's to meet out punishment if x/y/z criteria are met...
Just like the po-po in real life. Get caught? Do the time. Get caught but get away? Your profile was radio'd in, so you're no longer welcome at traders, there are npc's actively after you, etc...
True, I also mention it in the OP. The trigger-happy pvp'er is not that realistic, because even if killing doesn't weight on your conscience, you can't just kill tons of people in the area you live in, even if that is a post apocalyptic wasteland, without the risk of retribution and everyone behaving normally as nothing ever happened. TWD:

The Saviors were trigger-happy PvP'ers, see where that got them
 
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How about this?

I think that simply a trader reputation decrease when killing players or destroying LCBs, chests, doors, would be a nice change. Such decrease should result in higher prices and less quests.. and, if protracted for very long, no trade and no quests at all. To regain reputation you would have to wait very long, or do some "redemption quests", like pay the guy you killed X tokens..

@GAZZ this would be fairly quick to implement, wouldn't it?

 
Why should traders get involved? It's the apocalypse, they shouldn't care who killed who, only that the caps roll in.

 
Because they don't want troubles.

Because they are fairly nice guys.

Because they don't want to do business with murderers.

Because the heard bad things about a player, so they dont want him around.

Because they dont trust a player.

Because they were friends with the guy you killed.

Invent the story that best suits you!

 
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