PC Quick question on robotic drones.

[WarMongerian]

Hi folks, in my current game, it came up that, in reality, my friend and I were competing for trying to get to level 100 robotics, and the desired, much vaunted, level 6 Drone, and a third friend noted that, as I had just unlocked level 3 Drone crafting at robotics level 85, level 100 was only going to be useful once, and then it would be useless after that.

Give that both our characters were using level 5 Drones purchased from traders, only the level 6 Drones are going to be an improvement.  This makes Drone tied to random luck, and not a thing to be crafted, until level 100 Robotics is reached.

I thought about it, and he (the third friend) is correct.  What if the robotics tree worked more like the armor tree, where everything it enables, come along lowest forms of everything right off the bat, and then better (higher level) items unlock at the higher levels.

Suggestion"

level 1 Drone allowed at level 1 Robotics.  (much like the dew collectors under Forged Ahead/Workstations)

Level 2 Drone allowed/craftable at Robotics level 20.

Level 3 Drone at level 40.

Level 4 Drone at level 60.

Level 5 Drone at level 80.

Level 6 Drone at level 100.

This would fix the current situation, where crafting is useless because you can just buy the level 5 drones.

Thoughts?

 

[theFlu]

Same design applies to everything else as well. Can't get a gyro at level 1. Can't get an M60 at level 1. Can buy both before crafting one, even the gyro with some serious luck. The drone is a little odd as it's just extra carry capacity / minor convenience.. but I don't think that is enough of a reason to make it into an exception.

 

[seven]

Well, I rather like that idea. It is pretty much just extra carry capacity, and when is that useful? Early game. As it is now the drone is an end game item by which time I'm not picking up all the crap. One of the many problems with the locked linear progression.

What I've done is mod in a drone as a reward. Go to Rekt and get a tier 1 drone. At Jen's I get a 2, etc. My "lore" is that I'm reuniting with my lost robotic companion, and each trader upgrades it for me. I drop the old ones. Unlocking the ability to craft them would be a bit less "cheaty", but motion sensors are rather rare early game. Then again, I'm not too concerned with cheaty when it comes to some of the nonsense in this game.

 

[Riamus]

Inventory management is something that the devs have chosen to be a part of this game.  They don't want you to have tons of inventory space right from the start of the game.  As with other things in the game, you overcome this as you progress.  There's nothing wrong with starting out with only personal inventory, then getting a bicycle for a little more, then getting the other vehicles over time with even more inventory space, and at some point in there, getting a drone for even more space, where every couple of quality levels, you can add another storage mod for more space.  You start out with needing to manage your inventory, and slowly improve to where inventory management is not really a problem anymore.  It is a clear progression, and that's a good thing

Getting a drone (even Q1) with only one magazine would give you a LOT more space, even if you don't put in a storage mod.  Two rows may not seem like much, but it ends up being something like 35-40% increase over your personal inventory space (I don't have the game open and don't remember the exact number of spaces for drones or personal inventory).  That's a lot from reading a single magazine.  Sure, you need to craft it, which might require some effort to get the resources for it, but it isn't really that difficult to do so, even in the early game.  And, yes, the bicycle gives the same amount of extra storage as a Q1 drone that doesn't have a storage mod installed, but you're just adding even more space without any real effort and could get that space within the first few days without difficulty.  I don't think that's a good thing.

Now, if you were to suggest a more reasonable number of magazines for the Q1 drone (something that will still take you time to reach), that might be okay.

As far as being able to buy a drone, there isn't any reason that would be a bad thing.  You can buy pretty much anything, and often can do so before you're able to craft it.  It is good to make it so you can craft things at close to the same time you'd find them or could buy them, but it is actually better that people can buy stuff before crafting it.  Otherwise, there'd never be a reason to buy anything.  If you can craft it before you can buy it, why would you ever buy it unless you just hated crafting or were bad at finding resources to craft stuff?  Buying stuff requires dukes, and that means you need to have dukes first.  Even though dukes are very easy to get in this game (I always have tons), it gives you something to spend those on.  And for players who don't quest, dukes can be more difficult to get unless they are doing a lot of selling.  It can be a choice between buying one thing you'd like or saving for something you'd really like but don't yet have enough dukes to get.  Needing to make such choices is a good thing in a game.  We actually need to greatly reduce dukes in the game so those choices are more important, even in the end game.  But that would also mean lowering the cost of solar cells so you could still get enough of those if you want them.  In any case, you have a choice ... buy something or wait until you can craft it.  Choice is good.  And you aren't guaranteed to find a Q5 drone at a trader in every game.  It isn't uncommon to see only lower quality drones.  So one game you might buy (or find) a Q5 drone before you can craft one, or you might only be able to buy or find up to a Q3 drone in another game.

 

[WarMongerian]

Same design applies to everything else as well. Can't get a gyro at level 1. Can't get an M60 at level 1. Can buy both before crafting one, even the gyro with some serious luck. The drone is a little odd as it's just extra carry capacity / minor convenience.. but I don't think that is enough of a reason to make it into an exception.

Looking at the Armor tree, I see a well reasoned tree, where Light, Medium, and Heavy armors of level one quality are available quite  a bit sooner than the level one drone.

Looking at Workstations, the Dew collector is (IIRC) a level one craftable item, and unlike a drone, you can have as many as you have the resources to build.

Well, I rather like that idea. It is pretty much just extra carry capacity, and when is that useful? Early game. As it is now the drone is an end game item by which time I'm not picking up all the crap. One of the many problems with the locked linear progression.

Thanks!

but it is actually better that people can buy stuff before crafting it.  .

Sacrailg?  Hearsay?  Pistols at dawn, Sir!

For having the infernal gall of daring to speak a "Crime against Crafting". 

As far as being able to buy a drone, there isn't any reason that would be a bad thing.  

Right!!!

Now, remind me again, what was it you just said, about being able to craft such a drone?

Biased against crafting much? 

As far as level one = drone goes, maybe, but all drones need to come in in a steady progression, not all put off until the end.

If we amended the level one drone to 20 Robotics, then I would want each upgrade every 16 levels thereafter (5 better quality drones, and 80 skill levels, so...)/

 

[Riamus]

Looking at the Armor tree, I see a well reasoned tree, where Light, Medium, and Heavy armors of level one quality are available quite  a bit sooner than the level one drone.

Looking at Workstations, the Dew collector is (IIRC) a level one craftable item, and unlike a drone, you can have as many as you have the resources to build.

Thanks!

Sacrailg?  Hearsay?  Pistols at dawn, Sir!

For having the infernal gall of daring to speak a "Crime against Crafting". 

Right!!!

Now, remind me again, what was it you just said, about being able to craft such a drone?

Biased against crafting much? 

As far as level one = drone goes, maybe, but all drones need to come in in a steady progression, not all put off until the end.

If we amended the level one drone to 20 Robotics, then I would want each upgrade every 16 levels thereafter (5 better quality drones, and 80 skill levels, so...)/

Drones are intended to be a mid game item.  Armor and water are needed right away and so are available quickly.  Just because some items are available immediately doesn't mean everything needs to be.  A dew collector is available immediately, but a chem station isn't and that's not an upgrade or higher tier to the dew collector or even really workstations in general.  It's just intended as a mid game (or late if you prefer) item and so requires higher points.  It's the same for drones.  Even though they have different quality levels, they are still not intended for early game.

Not sure what your comment about crafting bias is from.  I merely pointed out that in order for purchasing things to be viable, it needs to be available somewhat sooner than crafting in general.  That doesn't mean you'll see the item(s) you want.  As I said, you might never see a Q5 drone in a game.  It just means you could potentially buy something sooner than you can craft it, if you find one and can afford it.  Think of it this way... a trader can sell anything even if you don't have a clue how to make it.  The game doesn't limit you from buying things you can't craft.  It would be crazy if it did.  Many people who play the game never learn to craft certain things.  If someone in a group doesn't learn to cook, they should still be able to buy food if they want.  If someone doesn't want to craft or just doesn't spend time looking for magazines, they should still be able to buy stuff without waiting forever.  And if someone spends all their time getting magazines, they'd of course be able to craft something sooner than they could buy it.  But for the average speed of increasing your crafting, traders should be just a little sooner in selling stuff.  As I had mentioned, this makes it actually worthwhile to buy things if you find something good and can afford it.  If you can't buy it before you can craft it, there is no reason to buy anything unless you just don't want to craft it for whatever reason.  That doesn't mean I think crafting isn't good.  And, to be very clear, I rarely buy anything from traders other than things only found at traders.

 

[theFlu]

Looking at the Armor tree, I see a well reasoned tree, where Light, Medium, and Heavy armors of level one quality are available quite  a bit sooner than the level one drone.

"Well reasoned" seems to be dependent on whether it agrees with your current train of thought .. Does that mean we should get our M60s at the same time as we get our quality one armors? The drones are intended as late game stuff.

The game just suffers from the same indecisiveness as you do; they can't make things craft only, because everyone needs to get one!

They can't make things loot only, because everyone needs to get one!

They can't make real classes, because everyone needs to get one!

And they can't make the current "class mechanics" not be a blurry mess of small increments, because everyone needs to get one ...

 

[Suxar]

I'm happy with what I have now. And considering that I play on a PvE server, in theory I can get a drone on the first day of the game. Although I never did.

 

[zztong]

I chose "Other" because to me a drone is just a cash item. I just sell them when I get them in drops. I don't want to use one.

But in the general sense, being able to buy items does sort of undercut crafting when the items are available via the trader earlier than you can craft them AND when you've been investing in that crafting. I go back and forth on my thoughts here, which is perhaps a good sign for TFP's current setup. I'm generally willing to just use the best of whatever drops, but I will craft the top tier equipment if it doesn't drop by the time I can make it.

 

[BFT2020]

Interesting fact about my game play - I have never found one in drops (I believe I have seen them in trader inventories) and never crafted one.  So far, since the drones were added to the game, I have yet to have one in my gameplay outside of giving myself one in Creative Mode just to try it out initially.

 

[8_Hussars]

Get rid of the obnoxious things... OR

stop letting them carry @%$# and allow them to scout the map out...  Higher quality higher range.

 

[8_Hussars]

Thoughts?

I don't find any of the OP to be a problem nor a situation that needs fixed.

Perhaps, simply removing drones from Trader Inventory would achieve the same results...

 

[Riamus]

Get rid of the obnoxious things... OR

stop letting them carry @%$# and allow them to scout the map out...  Higher quality higher range.

A lot of people like them and like using the inventory.  Is that such a bad thing?  Even if you don't like them, there's no reason to suggest removing them.

Perhaps, simply removing drones from Trader Inventory would achieve the same results...

For what reason?  Just so people are forced to craft them or find them?  There is no negative to being able to buy them.

---

General observation. Not a reply to anyone in particular...

I have never understood the complaints about how crafting should be preferred or looting should be preferred or buying should be preferred.  Why does it matter?  Choice is good. You can choose to get the items in whichever way you want, and others can get them in the way they want.  Everyone is always complaining about TFP taking away choices in how people play or forcing people to play a certain way and then we get suggestions to do exactly that.  If you don't like crafting, loot or buy. If you don't like traders, craft or loot.  If you don't like looting, craft or buy.  Simple.

 

[theFlu]

Why does it matter? 

Because .. some people appreciate working for their rewards. There's a way to spend to crapton of time gathering magazines to improve your crafting skill, and one random loot item will rob all that work in an instant. Working on your crafting is made literally pointless when you get that top tier Q5 drop randomly. And it's made virtually pointless when the tradey offers you the same for a few k - not buying it just to craft it yourself robs the achievement just the same.

It's basically an impossible thing to balance, rewarding the effort of skilling up vs just giving it for free for the ones who don't want to work for it. Atm, they've made crafting a little bit faster, but it'll all be wasted effort relatively quickly. The Q6 stuff being limited is the permanent perk of crafting (and I don't think that's actually worth the effort of clicking those 100 mags, but others will feel differently).

That's the crafter take. The looter take seems to be "the best stuff should be findable only after epic battles", and I get that too. It's how a lot of games work, either that or grinding; but they don't usually try to balance a crafting system on the side - for the same stuff anyhow. Plenty have crafting systems to produce consumables, but that also isn't necessary here.

The trader take, is mostly a take on realism, I think. The vendor should actually have access to good stuff through their background connections, and him having something great should be decently likely. I don't really like that, without at least a rep system to work through - and atm that's just questing, which doesn't feel like a rep system at all.

 

[Riamus]

I didn't mean people don't have reasons.  I meant that you have a choice, and a choice is good.  If you sometimes find something before you can craft it, so be it.  Next game, you may not.  If a trader has something before you can craft it... same thing.  I've had games where I'll find a drone and games where I don't.  Or games where they are always at the trader and games where I rarely see any.

There are people who play without traders and it works fine for them.  There are people who don't quest and rarely scavenge.  If you want to craft, nothing stops you.  Maybe you find something first, but that is the nature of RNG and this kind of game.  I couldn't start to list all of the games I have played that have all those options, where I had planned to craft something only to find something better first... Or worse, to craft something only to find someone better within the next few minutes.  That is just what happens.  If people can't handle that, then they should probably stick to casual games that only have crafting (or looting or trading).  Otherwise, accept that it will happen and don't worry about it.

Now, I've mentioned before that traders can still use balancing in what they offer and when they offer it.  And I have also said that dukes are far too plentiful... Either reduce how many you can get or raise prices significantly.  Those would reduce how easy it is to buy things.

And for PC players, they can always mod the game.  

In any case, drones are meant to be mid game items, so it is very unlikely they will be made possible to craft immediately.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Not to rub any salt in any wounds: Looted 3 drones in the wasteland when just unlocked the trader there, no lvl 6 but also no lvl1. Never used them since I noticed a few people reporting issues with them.
So it seems they are not that hard to find if you just search a few POI's and kill some red bag creatures.

 

[theFlu]

I meant that you have a choice, and a choice is good. 

It's essentially a false choice. If you aim to craft your weapons, and don't get your lucky vendor-crucible early, you won't have the steel. And even if you do, you'll be at the same spot a week later. The Q6 weapon is a nominal 10% upgrade, but compared to the Q5, it's a couple percent: the Q5 gets +40% from quality, +40% from mods and +50% from skills. So getting that extra 10% goes from 230% to 240%. A 4.3 percent upgrade. As an image and a riddle, tell me which of these wights was shot with which rifle:



You can't tell the difference without doing some pretty exact math.

And choice = good is also just .. another crystal waving hippyism. It can be good, in limited circumstances, but if you choice is between a footgun and not-a-footgun, then .. ehh.

 

[8_Hussars]

A lot of people like them and like using the inventory.  Is that such a bad thing?  Even if you don't like them, there's no reason to suggest removing them.

For what reason?  Just so people are forced to craft them or find them?  There is no negative to being able to buy them.

Keep in mind my responses were in the context of the OPs proposition.  Part of that was an alternate solution to the OP proposition.  It was not an outright attack on drones, crafting of drones, or buying of drones.

Having said that, I generally don't craft or buy them.  If I loot one I may use it or may not use it, simply because i find them terribly annoying in almost all aspects except for being a personal Sherpa.

I don't find they really fit well as a mechanic / game abstraction (my Sherpa buddy) or as a reflection of reality.  If drones could scout (open areas) of the map, or be sent out to find something (ore nodes, bodies of water, etc.) or even use them to track or identify animals.  Instead of storage capability there could be added range mods, vision enhancement and/or NVG/FLIR capability.  Now something like that would be grand.

 

[WarMongerian]

Interesting fact about my game play - I have never found one in drops (I believe I have seen them in trader inventories) and never crafted one.  So far, since the drones were added to the game, I have yet to have one in my gameplay outside of giving myself one in Creative Mode just to try it out initially.

Huh, that's weird, may last two games, both myself and the guy I play with have been seeing them in traders shops.  Not just low level ones, either.