PC Proposed change to Exp system that would work well for 7 days

konrax

konrax

Refugee
After playing the game for a bit, I think it would be really fitting to have experience based on what type of task you are doing implemented into the game. Also this system would work with the complete removal of level gates.

Give each set of skill types it's own progression bar, and when it levels players only get points to spend in those trees. This way you are leveling the *TYPES* of skills you are actually using.

For example, if you use your club all the time to kill zombies, your Strength EXP bar will go up, and when it levels you get points to spend ONLY on that skill tree. This way you aren't going to bash zombies with your club, and suddenly learn how to build a forge.

This change would need to have some more balancing around the available perks, and an adjustment to xp rewards for tasks you complete, but would give this game a much better feel that I think is currently missing.

Here are some examples:

Perception - Leveled when getting zombie kills (or players) with ranged weapons

Strength - Leveled when getting zombie kills (or players) with melee weapons

Fortitude - Farming, collecting resources, taking damage while wearing heavy armour

Agility - taking damage while wearing light armour (need to move some other tasks to this to make it more easily accessible)

Intelligence - crafting, and building

Looting - Should give a small amount of universal XP to all skills. I think it shouldn't be exclusive to Perception because guns are already very strong in 7 days and if anything looting should be equally advantageous to all builds.

Anyways let me know your thoughts if you think this would be a fun design change.

 
This is almost "learning by doing", while at the same time not dying on that hilll. I would certainly be in favour.
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Awesome thanks for the feedback, I feel the same way as you with this idea so I thought I would share it.

 
I already had similar thoughts. In multiplayer i took the food support task and skilled for cooking and crops and collected ressources like wood and stone for base building. Some other people went for raids to collect loot. After a day, they came back with 3-4 level-ups, while i only made half a level, for collecting ressources, building up the base and cared for food.

Players should really get more XP for collecting ressources and crafting. Irc you don't even get any XP for planting crops or trees, and not even for harvesting your self planted crops, or building.

Collecting plants gives you little XP, chopping trees also little. Killing estimated 20 Zs gives you a level up, but you need to chop down 200 trees to get a level up. Zombies are found in masses, i even counted ~15 Zs in one single landside house. Chopping trees for a level up needs to clear a huge area and at least 10 times longer.

Getting XP to the base skill by doing might be a good idea. Of course this can be exploited, by people just chopping trees or build blocks and just tear them off again. Like going build a mine in A15/16 just for leveling.

But on the other hand the current XP distribution does the other way round: it forces you to kill Zs. Not because you need loot from buildings, but just because you need to get XP.

In my opinion this is not good because 1) it forces you to do a specfic playstyle and 2) the target is to survive, not to kill as much Zs as you can, espacially not go into combat actively.

 
I think giving a good chunk of xp for the first time you complete an xp task, with diminishing returns until that specific task has had some time to cool off would easily fix this.

This way if you are focusing on crafting and building, crafting and a variety of items will be more effective than exploiting by doing only a single simple task.

Looting and fighting zombies should have a fixed xp amount for them, while the others that can be easily exploited having a diminishing return.

 
I think giving a good chunk of xp for the first time you complete an xp task, with diminishing returns until that specific task has had some time to cool off would easily fix this.
This way if you are focusing on crafting and building, crafting and a variety of items will be more effective than exploiting by doing only a single simple task.

Looting and fighting zombies should have a fixed xp amount for them, while the others that can be easily exploited having a diminishing return.
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Zombies giving XP is probably the top 'easily exploted' thing ever, no reason to dump on crafters with diminishing returns and not apply the same to zombie killing.

Honestly not in favour, the attributes dont really add anything to the game that we didnt have in the original 'learn by doing approach'

They are there in your solution litteraly to appease a developer who is dead set in forcing a new skill system down peoples throats, hope to god someone figures out how to mod the a16 skill system back in.

 
I much prefer the new skill system of the game, at least from a pvp point of view it adds a lot of interesting options for build styles.

It certainly can use some work, maybe adding diminishing returns to killing zombies as well like you said to give the game more incentive to play it in a balanced way.

I'm not sure, conceptually I really like this idea, it would just need to be tested in a game environment.

 
Currently, I find the XP from the z's to high, and believe the rewards could be cut in half. I started a fresh game, did the intro line, went to a trader and then proceeded to clear POI's and scavenge a small area from my base. Within that area, I have a table saw, workbench, chemistry station, and a working forge (built). I have not visited the trader since day one. Day 4 just finished, and I'm lvl 30, melee oriented and now with a forge and perk to build iron tools.

For some reason, I seem to get a lot of screamers. Prior to my forge being built, I put up around 10+ torches around the POI that I am using as a base. After I built my forge, and moved most of the torches over to the POI that I built it on, the screamers still come to my POI with my sleeping bag. This is just across the street from the POI with the forge/torches, table saw, and workbench. (Cabinet Maker POI)

I'm enjoying the game, and I'm hoping for some changes to the crafting system, perks, leveling, etc. after the New Year begins.

May you have a Happy New Year!

 
I don't know. In general i'm in Favor of the new A17 Perk-Concept due unlike A16 it feels more impactfull due you have to make some decisions, and also emphasize Group-play with different Roles. In the Steam-Forum i argued about that already, i wouldn't mind (that much) if they bring back the "learning by doing" for the Weapon-Types itself, but for different Playstyles in my honest Opinion is the wrong approach. This is still "the Survival Horde Crafting Game" which means you have Core-Mechanics / Features which you can't hide completly (and which shouldn't be the case anyway) which means even a Builder from Time to Time will kill Z's and even if not, for the worst Case Scenario he should be able to. But "Learning by Doing" with different Playstyles would force the People to play an Certain Playstyle they don't want to, and for me this is the wrong approach. In such an Game, even more due it's also Sandbox, i don't want to be forced to Craft for 20 Hours (overexegerating) so i be somewhat competent to craft my own stuff.

And if you ask me, is this also the Major Point, why i believe that in "general" the new Concept itself is pretty good and way better than A16, due even a "Builder" can put Skill-Points into their Choice of Weapon / Combat while they Focus on Building-Stuff, instead of - if they want to somewhat competent in Combat they have to Grind Z's. And that's where the issue lies with Alpha 17. So i argue the Real Issue isn't the new Perk-System but moreover it's an issue of the Balancing of EXP, while Z-Hunter get a heck of EXP, for Builders and Crafters it gets a Chore... so this is the Aspect which TFP should look into it.

Except their Intention was to begin with that people should be more focused on Combat itself, than the Balancing makes sense!

 
I don't know. In general i'm in Favor of the new A17 Perk-Concept due unlike A16 it feels more impactfull due you have to make some decisions, and also emphasize Group-play with different Roles. In the Steam-Forum i argued about that already, i wouldn't mind (that much) if they bring back the "learning by doing" for the Weapon-Types itself, but for different Playstyles in my honest Opinion is the wrong approach. This is still "the Survival Horde Crafting Game" which means you have Core-Mechanics / Features which you can't hide completly (and which shouldn't be the case anyway) which means even a Builder from Time to Time will kill Z's and even if not, for the worst Case Scenario he should be able to. But "Learning by Doing" with different Playstyles would force the People to play an Certain Playstyle they don't want to, and for me this is the wrong approach. In such an Game, even more due it's also Sandbox, i don't want to be forced to Craft for 20 Hours (overexegerating) so i be somewhat competent to craft my own stuff.
And if you ask me, is this also the Major Point, why i believe that in "general" the new Concept itself is pretty good and way better than A16, due even a "Builder" can put Skill-Points into their Choice of Weapon / Combat while they Focus on Building-Stuff, instead of - if they want to somewhat competent in Combat they have to Grind Z's. And that's where the issue lies with Alpha 17. So i argue the Real Issue isn't the new Perk-System but moreover it's an issue of the Balancing of EXP, while Z-Hunter get a heck of EXP, for Builders and Crafters it gets a Chore... so this is the Aspect which TFP should look into it.

Except their Intention was to begin with that people should be more focused on Combat itself, than the Balancing makes sense!
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The EXP amounts need to be adjusted and that is something everyone seems to agree on, the core idea behind my suggestion though is to make gaining experience more categorical vs general.

I find it rather funny that I can go shoot up a whole bunch of zombies and then dump points into intelligence and now I can build an AK47... it is sort of immersion breaking to me, and it would almost make each skill tree it's own set of tasks you need to perform if you want to skill up in it.

This way people will become specialized in the tasks they are actually performing, instead of gravitating towards the most abusing exp mechanics in general to get levels.

It will also promote splitting your points up into different categories because well... it is forcing you to do so based on your past behaviour, which I think fits the game much better than a general experience system. If you clear POI's using melee all the time, you are going to get points to spend on melee, which makes sense.

You get better at the things you do...

 
Completing task from the trader could give the xp points in the things such as making mini bike, workbench, forge and such. You will get xp as you are doing that quest like killing zombies and looting and such for the other things you suggested. With some tweaking and balancing this idea could work.

Good idea I will say.

 
I was actually day dreaming about something like this the other day. I feel like this system would work much better. It doesn't feel like a cheap way to gate progression behind some numbers.

I'm up for it.

 
Completing task from the trader could give the xp points in the things such as making mini bike, workbench, forge and such. You will get xp as you are doing that quest like killing zombies and looting and such for the other things you suggested. With some tweaking and balancing this idea could work.
Good idea I will say.
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Thanks for the feedback, I think trader quests in particular should give exp depending on the type of quest, with some of the general quests giving exp to all skill trees (like looting).

Like the zombie killing quest could give you 50/50 exp into ranged and melee as a reward.

Fetch quests could give exp for agility.

etc etc

 
It would be quite difficult to balance this system for the Intelligence tree, and to a lesser extent the Fortitude and Agility trees. Perception and Strength are easy for obvious reasons, but how do you suddenly declare that a player has gathered "enough Intelligence" that he suddenly unlocks an Intelligence skill point ? Number of crafted items is a bad idea as it would either be super easy or cheesy (spamcrafting something), or you'd end up having to craft stuff you don't even need, just to get the experience.

To be quite fair the Intelligence tree is the one that needs the most love for this exact reason. It makes no sense that a set amount of zombie kills or resource gathering suddenly enables you some magic wisdom. But at the same time there's really nothing I can think of that would warrant getting experience in the Intelligence tree department.

I can see why they scrapped books even though they were amazing in my opinion; but you can't balance 4 trees mostly doing % multipliers (damage, stamina loss...) and 1 tree that contains effective perks (know to craft or don't). Maybe recipes should be reworked as to be obtained by doing quests, finding special treasures / air drops and killing specific (new ?) zombies (in the form of finding a recipe).

 
Thanks for the feedback, I think trader quests in particular should give exp depending on the type of quest, with some of the general quests giving exp to all skill trees (like looting).
Like the zombie killing quest could give you 50/50 exp into ranged and melee as a reward.

Fetch quests could give exp for agility.

etc etc
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but what if I don't use ranged or melee? it becomes a waste for me to do those quests because the exp is split. Level by doing was removed because of how easy it was to cheese. Night one used to always be sit in my wood shack crafting axes or bow until morning. Day one was gathering as much of the materials needed as possible.

People who play with other people would be at a huge disadvantage for Str and Perception. Don't always get the kill for the zombie because my partner might get the last hit. Right now it doesnt matter who gets the last shot because we share the exp.

Any skills that only go up while taking damage are a bad idea and horrible design. It's why I never got my armor skills up in skyrim and the like. The point is to not take damage, not to stand there and let an enemy hit you just to raise a skill.

Fort going up with farming, collecting resources and the unrelated taking damage is an odd combination. One of these is not like the other :p

 
It would be quite difficult to balance this system for the Intelligence tree, and to a lesser extent the Fortitude and Agility trees. Perception and Strength are easy for obvious reasons, but how do you suddenly declare that a player has gathered "enough Intelligence" that he suddenly unlocks an Intelligence skill point ? Number of crafted items is a bad idea as it would either be super easy or cheesy (spamcrafting something), or you'd end up having to craft stuff you don't even need, just to get the experience.
To be quite fair the Intelligence tree is the one that needs the most love for this exact reason. It makes no sense that a set amount of zombie kills or resource gathering suddenly enables you some magic wisdom. But at the same time there's really nothing I can think of that would warrant getting experience in the Intelligence tree department.

I can see why they scrapped books even though they were amazing in my opinion; but you can't balance 4 trees mostly doing % multipliers (damage, stamina loss...) and 1 tree that contains effective perks (know to craft or don't). Maybe recipes should be reworked as to be obtained by doing quests, finding special treasures / air drops and killing specific (new ?) zombies (in the form of finding a recipe).
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but what if I don't use ranged or melee? it becomes a waste for me to do those quests because the exp is split. Level by doing was removed because of how easy it was to cheese. Night one used to always be sit in my wood shack crafting axes or bow until morning. Day one was gathering as much of the materials needed as possible.



People who play with other people would be at a huge disadvantage for Str and Perception. Don't always get the kill for the zombie because my partner might get the last hit. Right now it doesnt matter who gets the last shot because we share the exp.

Any skills that only go up while taking damage are a bad idea and horrible design. It's why I never got my armor skills up in skyrim and the like. The point is to not take damage, not to stand there and let an enemy hit you just to raise a skill.

Fort going up with farming, collecting resources and the unrelated taking damage is an odd combination. One of these is not like the other :p
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I think I addressed these concerns in earlier posts, also part of it is that there is group exp available now, and that would reward the group with the type or weapon that killed the zombie.

As for spam crafting to gain experience, that is currently in the game right now, you can craft stuff to get exp, but it appears that very inexpensive items don't reward any exp at all.

I also made a point that there should be diminishing returns on the items you craft for the purpose of making spam crafting a bad option to gain exp.

My proposed system isn't perfect out of the box in the short couple paragraphs I've written about it, but on the surface it fits and with some tweaking it could fit very well into this game.

The diminishing returns could also be applied for taking hits in combat, and could also use a formula based on when the last time you were hit, as well as how much damage it was for, etc etc to give a proper exp reward for getting hit that immediately falls down to a much lower amount on subsequent hits.

Once again you are pointing out possible exploits in this system, which is great, but many of them have already been addressed by myself and the others could be worked around as well.

 
Some of those things I would have different opinion on but when it comes down to it who wouldn't? One opinion will be different then someone else.

The system we have now isn't bad it needs so.e more work and tweaking... the thought behind this system brought up isn't bad either and would need work done and tweaking. Either way both can be good if the end result comes out right. Both will obviously have the pros and cons and everyone will agree and disagree on what needs changed and what doesn't because everyone has a preference they enjoy. But all in all I do like your thought on it and feel it could work.

I still though think if it was to be done if I complete a quest give me the xp whatever it would be call but will use for now general xp for the odd ball stuff. If my quest is to kill zombies well i will be getting the xp killing those zombies anyway. If it to loot then I'm going to get xp when I get the loot. But when I go and turn it back in to complete the quest well I get the general xp. I don't see a reason to try and split it 50/50 as you will be getting xp anyway for doing things even if you wasn't doing the quest. Just my opinion if this system was in.

 
Some of those things I would have different opinion on but when it comes down to it who wouldn't? One opinion will be different then someone else.
The system we have now isn't bad it needs so.e more work and tweaking... the thought behind this system brought up isn't bad either and would need work done and tweaking. Either way both can be good if the end result comes out right. Both will obviously have the pros and cons and everyone will agree and disagree on what needs changed and what doesn't because everyone has a preference they enjoy. But all in all I do like your thought on it and feel it could work.

I still though think if it was to be done if I complete a quest give me the xp whatever it would be call but will use for now general xp for the odd ball stuff. If my quest is to kill zombies well i will be getting the xp killing those zombies anyway. If it to loot then I'm going to get xp when I get the loot. But when I go and turn it back in to complete the quest well I get the general xp. I don't see a reason to try and split it 50/50 as you will be getting xp anyway for doing things even if you wasn't doing the quest. Just my opinion if this system was in.
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I agree with your points, the quests might be a good way to reward general experience, it could also be a good way to give specialized experience for players trying to build up a skill set they want. Honestly both options can exist since they give you a list of options you can pick from.

 
but what if I don't use ranged or melee? it becomes a waste for me to do those quests because the exp is split. Level by doing was removed because of how easy it was to cheese. Night one used to always be sit in my wood shack crafting axes or bow until morning. Day one was gathering as much of the materials needed as possible.



People who play with other people would be at a huge disadvantage for Str and Perception. Don't always get the kill for the zombie because my partner might get the last hit. Right now it doesnt matter who gets the last shot because we share the exp.

Any skills that only go up while taking damage are a bad idea and horrible design. It's why I never got my armor skills up in skyrim and the like. The point is to not take damage, not to stand there and let an enemy hit you just to raise a skill.

Fort going up with farming, collecting resources and the unrelated taking damage is an odd combination. One of these is not like the other :p
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I second this. You shouldn't be rewarded for gettig hit. They are zombies. The point is to not get hit...

I wouldn't mind being rewarded xp based on how skillfully you killed a zombie. Say you'd recieve less xp if you were hit by Z a few times in melee range and only got body shots on Z = less xp gain than say getting a well placed headshot at range.

It's a survival game and I feel the player should be rewarded for having tactical prowess and skill.

 
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