PC Problems with A17.2 that aren't on the 'known issues' list of the patch notes

[Cirion]

I stated what they are - low use skills that are important. There is no real viable way to fix leveling armor for instance - any method that levels this naturally with your other skills will be WAY to fast for someone that levels it manually. Hence why people sit on cacti. You see the identical problem in skyrim because they tried the same thing - armor skills simply do not work here. The same goes for medicine as well.
They fixed those problems with common pool exp.

So use LBD where it makes sense and don't use it where it makes sense. Armor skill should be more like crafting skill anyway, your armor does not and should not magically get better just because you take damage.

Anyway I also like LBD because it gets around all the problems of shared pool EXP, which I'm with everyone who hates LBD by equally hating the shared pool system and don't see why people love that!

Shared pool adds all sorts of annoyances like level gates, forcing you to increase your gamestage since gamestage is based upon common exp pool, and restricting your gameplay as such because it forces you to play combat specc if you want to have a reasonable chance to win especially on insane and single player. Not to mention lack of immersion, but that's already been explained enough hopefully. Not to mention, LBD gives you a much less possibility to have "buyer's regret". By that, I mean, with shared pool exp system you have opportunity to level up a skill you have never physically used. With that there is a danger it is a skill you may dislike. Too late... you bought it, no refunds. with LBD you can just use it, see if you like it, if not, don't bother leveling it. Hardly any time or skill pts wasted. Final pro of LBD vs shared pool - if LBD is coded correctly (Noting that in some cases, it wasn't), you don't even notice the grind, every skill levels up at roughly the same pace, no "grind" necessary... just play the game. Of course the option of grind is always there if you really want something leveled up. The grind hurts, is felt so bad in A17 because you need soooo many zombie kills, sooo much mining, to level everything up. How is this less grindy than A16??

Complaints of some things that "essential" being difficult to grind using A16 system IMO is not even much of a debate for a couple reasons

1.) in A17 there is plenty of "essential" skills being far worse to grind. Take INT for one. In A17 you MUST have int to craft anything, yet if you specialize in it, you are gimped in damage for a long time, especially on harder difficulties

2.) Again, the complaints upon certain skills can be easily addressed in LBD. Example - I believe all guns leveled at the same pace per shot. Meaning some skills lagged behind, Pistol vs. SMG. Pistol doesn't fire as much, so the correct balance is to make it level more per shot. Same with rocket launchers. I downloaded an "Action skills" mod recently, and I balanced it this way and it seems so much more logical.

3.) In the end, it is far easier to max out many skills in A16 vs. in A17, especially when you consider how long it can take to level up in A17 at 100, 200+, you only get 1 skill point per level, and it can take upwards of 5 skill points to level something up ONCE. So I hardly see how A17 is easier. TO really drive home this point, even with how bad some of the skills in A16 were (armor) it is still probably faster to grind armor this way than it is with A17 system once you've reached high levels in A17 where you need hundreds of thousands of EXP to level ONCE. A17 "Feels" better than LBD early game because levels and skill points come fast, the pain is not fully realized until you reach high levels. It is really imbalanced because at that point, it could take several game days to get a single skill point, whereas it takes the same time to get a skill up in LBD, whether you're a new player or on day 100.

--> Some were harder yes, and again we aren't debating that some were imbalanced (like armor), but done correctly, a LBD system should feel so much better.

Anyway this debate is silly because several of us ALREADY addressed certain skills that you have complaints against like armor, and we're actually mostly in agreement with you on it.

The ONLY thing A17 has going for it is the ability to "cheese" and max a skill super early, but only one skill, maybe two. I'm betting alot of people seem to like A17 because you can cheese it by maxing combat super early. If anything that's pretty overpowered anyway, which is what virtually everyone does, so there is no variety with that system. They should put level gates on combat... and then we'll see how many people are praising A17 =P I am only half joking. They level gated stuff like INT after all... If level gates were removed from INT, then INT would actually have merit vs. combat speccs.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

If you kill Zombies with melee weapons = armor skill

Because Armor skill means you are near a enemy and take damage or take no damage, in both cases you are teached defense

Eating buff food and dont fall under 90% health for a hour could level your Medic skill

Even the more problematic LBD can be solved on a decent way

 

[RestInPieces]

....
That's pure RNG.

You don't know what POIs you'll have, you don't know what loot will be in them, same for quest rewards, trader inventories, basically everything that isn't perk gated is RNG based in this game.

It's definitely not pure RNG.

Pure RNG would be looting a container/enemy with a completely arbitrary lootlist, the container/enemy spawning in an arbitrary POI, the POI spawning in an arbitrary biome etc. Change one or more of these, or even add specific conditions and it will not be pure RNG anymore, because it will also depend on the player's actions/priorities/exploration.

I stated what they are - low use skills that are important. There is no real viable way to fix leveling armor for instance - any method that levels this naturally with your other skills will be WAY to fast for someone that levels it manually. Hence why people sit on cacti. You see the identical problem in skyrim because they tried the same thing - armor skills simply do not work here. The same goes for medicine as well.
They fixed those problems with common pool exp.

I can't think of a more uncreative and bland way to fix these problems other than a common pool exp. Exploits/abuse and power leveling could be easily fixed by other means like diminishing returns/equal trade-off. Skyrim vanilla system was laughably bad for me, so I modded it and fixed most of these issues you mention.

Equal trade-off means that everything, health included, or armor durability are resources which you can't waste without consequences or big enough cost. Diminishing returns both time and recipe-specific could easily fix the obvious power leveling.

 

[Cirion]

If you kill Zombies with melee weapons = armor skillBecause Armor skill means you are near a enemy and take damage or take no damage, in both cases you are teached defense

Eating buff food and dont fall under 90% health for a hour could level your Medic skill

Even the more problematic LBD can be solved on a decent way

I like this idea. It's true, if anything, AVOIDING damage should boost your defense... I like it...

Anyway I think there is a fundamental disconnect in arguments in this thread.

The people who hate LBD are saying the following. "A17 system is better than A16". Rather than "Shared pool is better than LBD" as a theory. I actually don't disagree that some of A16 system was flawed, but it is not fair to extend that to say LBD is flawed. Their execution of LBD was somewhat flawed yes, but it can be fixed.

 

[Roland]

Well for me it's all about immersion and the connection I make with the character I am building.

That is not what it’s ALL about though is it? It is also at least as much about a min/max efficiency driven playstyle. I’m happy with either the A16 or A17 model since I play organically regardless— and from listening to others who play organically they also haven’t been phased in how they play throughout the different iterations of the progression system since A11.

The ones who are reeling are those who’s main focus is on leveling as quickly as possible.

In fact, I’d say that efficiency leveling is even more important to you than immersion because you could play immersively the way you say you want by practicing actions repetitively for a bit before spending points in those areas but the only thing holding you back from that is that it would be terribly inefficient to do so.

This game grew and reached great success without any shred of xp based character growth. If I held the dev magic wand I would remove all xp and simply grant points as a function of time survived. Then people would mine as much as they needed to achieve their survival objectives and not as a means to earn efficient xp. People would kill or avoid zombies as a function of survival rather than farming them for xp. You know, the way the game was for most of its life cycle before lbd made an appearance.

But...I don’t have the wand and ultimately it doesn’t matter much to me since I play organically so I’m ultimately happy with whatever model. Both have their good and bad points.

 

[RestInPieces]

And more on the equal cost:

There can be many ways to avoid abuse and make raising skills immersive. But I want to make a different point atm. Let's take athletics for example and say it was again raised by just running/walking. A seemingly abusable way to raise a skill - "you can just run in circles and abuse it" - heard that plenty of times.

But it is only really abusable when time is not enough of a resource. And time is not enough of a resource when the actions you can do in a certain amount of time are not important enough. It is abusable only when you have the luxury to do it without any cost involved. If you are hard-pressed to find food/water, build defenses etc, you can take a conscious decision to spend time "training it" or even abusing it, if you want. If you sacrifice other important activities to do it though, it can hardly be considered an abuse to train it. But all these, hardly matter in the first place. If there are other important activities the player should engage in, he will never get an incentive to power-level such an activity and just level it naturally in the end.

Same principle could be applied on any skill - if something is costly enough, it will never be abused. Even if there is a chance it does get abused, random range diminishing returns can take care of that.

 

[Cirion]

This game grew and reached great success without any shred of xp based character growth. If I held the dev magic wand I would remove all xp and simply grant points as a function of time survived. Then people would mine as much as they needed to achieve their survival objectives and not as a means to earn efficient xp. People would kill or avoid zombies as a function of survival rather than farming them for xp. You know, the way the game was for most of its life cycle before lbd made an appearance.

But...I don’t have the wand and ultimately it doesn’t matter much to me since I play organically so I’m ultimately happy with whatever model. Both have their good and bad points.

I actually kind of like that idea! Dunno if I like it more than LBD, but I would definitely take it over the current system, it's definitely an interesting suggestion.

As you said, it would have you actually play the game, rather than grind.

I do think survival sometimes takes a backseat in the game. There is no reward for surviving really (other than not losing your stuff, depending on loot drop settings) currently.

 

[RestInPieces]

I do think survival sometimes takes a backseat in the game.

More often than not :/

 

[Ghostlight]

Anyway I also like LBD because it gets around all the problems of shared pool EXP, which I'm with everyone who hates LBD by equally hating the shared pool system and don't see why people love that!

It's obvious why people love the new shared XP pool perks: it's dumbed-down, and it gives the player everything on a plate for minimum effort. In short it is for a more casual audience. Not knocking such people, just stating the truth here. The new perk system is casual-friendly in many ways, this is an obvious one. Another is that it gives the player the ability to make everything in the game. No need to explore, no need to go out there and loot. Just gain XP by your preferred method and everything is eventually given to you. Can't get more Casual than that.

Unfortunately for a survival game, casual-friendly is the LAST thing you want your in-game systems to be, because the result of that is inevitable: a BLAND survival game with little replayability. Q.E.D

 

[Cirion]

It's obvious why people love the new shared XP pool perks: it's dumbed-down, and it gives the player everything on a plate for minimum effort. In short it is for a more casual audience. Not knocking such people, just stating the truth here. The new perk system is casual-friendly in many ways, this is an obvious one. Another is that it gives the player the ability to make everything in the game. No need to explore, no need to go out there and loot. Just gain XP by your preferred method and everything is eventually given to you. Can't get more Casual than that.
Unfortunately for a survival game, casual-friendly is the LAST thing you want your in-game systems to be, because the result of that is inevitable: a BLAND survival game with little replayability. Q.E.D

Well I'm actually a fairly casual gamer myself lately. I think being casual is not necessarily synonymous with wanting things to be simple or easy. I consider myself casual due to the limited time I have to put towards games these days. Although I do have a history of pumping up difficulties in games, so maybe I'm not casual? IDK lol.

I also tend to like the requirement to go explore rather than be able to craft everything, even the trader makes things too easy in some ways. I kind of miss needing to get magazines for that reason.

 

[Roland]

It's obvious why people love the new shared XP pool perks: it's dumbed-down, and it gives the player everything on a plate for minimum effort. In short it is for a more casual audience. Not knocking such people, just stating the truth here.

Stating your opinion but not necessarily the truth...

My opinion is that it isn't about casual or minimum effort at all. I think it is completely about speeding through the game for the sake of getting to top level and what is the most fun way to grind for those who rush through the progression. With the LBD model of A16 you had a variety of activities to grind because there was one most efficient way to grind for each independent skill whereas with shared pool you have just one activity that is the best for all.

Efficiency players will always gravitate to the one best method for rapid xp gain. In A15 that was crafting. In A16 that was mining. In A17 that was killing. A player who is hooked on grinding for levels is going to like the A16 model better simply for the variety of grinds to choose from. Bump into a cactus repeatedly to grind up armor, race through POI's rapidly opening containers to grind up scavenging, jump repeatedly as you travel to rapidly grind up athletics, etc. A16 had a nice large spread of different flavor grinds for the efficiency gamer to enjoy and none of those various grinds could be accomplished by doing just one general activity.

For someone who doesn't grind or doesn't focus on rapid level gaining the above distinction doesn't matter. There are both casuals and hardcore gamers who like to grind levels and who like to play organically so I don't see it, myself, as a function of how much time you are willing to put into the game. A casual who likes to grind will just grind away whenever they have time to play. A hardcore player who can play for hours everyday can also prefer to play the game organically and not make grinding the focus of his play sessions.

 

[Cirion]

Stating your opinion but not necessarily the truth...
My opinion is that it isn't about casual or minimum effort at all. I think it is completely about speeding through the game for the sake of getting to top level and what is the most fun way to grind for those who rush through the progression. With the LBD model of A16 you had a variety of activities to grind because there was one most efficient way to grind for each independent skill whereas with shared pool you have just one activity that is the best for all.

Efficiency players will always gravitate to the one best method for rapid xp gain. In A15 that was crafting. In A16 that was mining. In A17 that was killing. A player who is hooked on grinding for levels is going to like the A16 model better simply for the variety of grinds to choose from. Bump into a cactus repeatedly to grind up armor, race through POI's rapidly opening containers to grind up scavenging, jump repeatedly as you travel to rapidly grind up athletics, etc. A16 had a nice large spread of different flavor grinds for the efficiency gamer to enjoy and none of those various grinds could be accomplished by doing just one general activity.

For someone who doesn't grind or doesn't focus on rapid level gaining the above distinction doesn't matter. There are both casuals and hardcore gamers who like to grind levels and who like to play organically so I don't see it, myself, as a function of how much time you are willing to put into the game. A casual who likes to grind will just grind away whenever they have time to play. A hardcore player who can play for hours everyday can also prefer to play the game organically and not make grinding the focus of his play sessions.

I think you put it nicely one reason why I preferred A16's system. With lots of different skills to "level up", it kept things more interesting for me. Grinding doesn't have to be boring, but it often becomes boring when its just one or two things you do over and over. With the old system if you did get bored of grinding one thing, there were ten other things you could pick from to work on and come back to it later.

I would also argue A16 was better for the "organic" player as you put it as well. At least, if some of the problems with the system were fixed (Like needing to hug cactuses for hours on end is not conducive to organic players). A perfectly designed LBD system would organically have virtually all your skills level at roughly the same pace, or at least at a fair pace relative to a time relative comparison basis (for example, if you use a pistol 50% of the time and AK-47 50% of time, a correctly designed system, both would be at the same level). We know this wasn't the case with A16, but with some thought, it could be like that. But some thought would also need to be given for some skills which aren't used as often, but are still needed... Like the armor skills for example. So the time relative example is a little more complex than face value. Actually the time relative system is basically how it was, and why it didn't quite work before - Expecting the player to take damage as often as they deal damage was why the armor system was ridiculous before. So I say all that to almost say to ignore the latter half of my second paragraph LOL.

 

[meganoth]

I would also argue A16 was better for the "organic" player as you put it as well. At least, if some of the problems with the system were fixed (Like needing to hug cactuses for hours on end is not conducive to organic players). A perfectly designed LBD system would organically have virtually all your skills level at roughly the same pace, or at least at a fair pace relative to a time relative comparison basis (for example, if you use a pistol 50% of the time and AK-47 50% of time, a correctly designed system, both would be at the same level).

For me the advantage of the A17 system is the choice you have independent of what you do at the moment. No amount of perfect design of LBD gives me that choice to develop my character as I like. Do I need a vehicle? Well, then I put points into vehicle crafting. Without having to make my choice apparent through the grind of wrenching 80 cars I might have no interest in.

 

[FA_Q2]

That is not what it’s ALL about though is it? It is also at least as much about a min/max efficiency driven playstyle. I’m happy with either the A16 or A17 model since I play organically regardless— and from listening to others who play organically they also haven’t been phased in how they play throughout the different iterations of the progression system since A11.
The ones who are reeling are those who’s main focus is on leveling as quickly as possible.

In fact, I’d say that efficiency leveling is even more important to you than immersion because you could play immersively the way you say you want by practicing actions repetitively for a bit before spending points in those areas but the only thing holding you back from that is that it would be terribly inefficient to do so.

This game grew and reached great success without any shred of xp based character growth. If I held the dev magic wand I would remove all xp and simply grant points as a function of time survived. Then people would mine as much as they needed to achieve their survival objectives and not as a means to earn efficient xp. People would kill or avoid zombies as a function of survival rather than farming them for xp. You know, the way the game was for most of its life cycle before lbd made an appearance.

But...I don’t have the wand and ultimately it doesn’t matter much to me since I play organically so I’m ultimately happy with whatever model. Both have their good and bad points.

Then get that wand. This is a really good idea IMHO.

 

[Cirion]

For me the advantage of the A17 system is the choice you have independent of what you do at the moment. No amount of perfect design of LBD gives me that choice to develop my character as I like. Do I need a vehicle? Well, then I put points into vehicle crafting. Without having to make my choice apparent through the grind of wrenching 80 cars I might have no interest in.

Yeah I mean it comes down to preference ultimately, it sounds like. You have a certain playstyle and I have a certain playstyle which are different. So we have a fundamental disconnect. That said, there are some solutions to that problem. One would be bring back magazines to learn vehicles like how you had to find the minibike magazine back in A16. Which honestly makes sense anyway, there is no way you would magically know how to make a truck without an instruction manual of some sort or someone to train you. That said, I think it's somewhat unreasonable to expect players to get everything while purposefully avoiding some aspects of the game that are pretty important (IMO). I think it is silly to avoid wrenching cars as example. They give lots of good loot that you kinda need.

So I get your point, kinda, but it just makes the game lose a lot of depth to streamline it into one EXP bar.

I wonder how difficult it would be for TFP to just make an option to pick a skill system for leveling up so you could just pick if you want LBD or the A17 system. Perhaps this would be the simpler solution? Then everyone would be happy - just pick the system you like.

 

[KrashYT22]

Stating your opinion but not necessarily the truth...
My opinion is that it isn't about casual or minimum effort at all. I think it is completely about speeding through the game for the sake of getting to top level and what is the most fun way to grind for those who rush through the progression. With the LBD model of A16 you had a variety of activities to grind because there was one most efficient way to grind for each independent skill whereas with shared pool you have just one activity that is the best for all.

Efficiency players will always gravitate to the one best method for rapid xp gain. In A15 that was crafting. In A16 that was mining. In A17 that was killing. A player who is hooked on grinding for levels is going to like the A16 model better simply for the variety of grinds to choose from. Bump into a cactus repeatedly to grind up armor, race through POI's rapidly opening containers to grind up scavenging, jump repeatedly as you travel to rapidly grind up athletics, etc. A16 had a nice large spread of different flavor grinds for the efficiency gamer to enjoy and none of those various grinds could be accomplished by doing just one general activity.

For someone who doesn't grind or doesn't focus on rapid level gaining the above distinction doesn't matter. There are both casuals and hardcore gamers who like to grind levels and who like to play organically so I don't see it, myself, as a function of how much time you are willing to put into the game. A casual who likes to grind will just grind away whenever they have time to play. A hardcore player who can play for hours everyday can also prefer to play the game organically and not make grinding the focus of his play sessions.

But the difference for example is that in 16 alpha I hardly thought of getting a level, yes, I was worried about steel and concrete, but it was tolerable and not noticeable.

In Alpha 15, when the restriction on steel or concrete was only in practical skills, then there just looked at it, and understood, it will be as it will, or I will spend my glasses on it manually, and very carefully did their work.

In the 17 alpha, cut interest in most of the cases in which they were engaged. People do not need lightness, they need freedom. When they feel that they just need to play, and then they can do concrete and steel, they are interested. But when they are told, you cannot do it because of the “unrealistic cause”, then they are annoying.

I understand that you can say that everything suits you, and you have such a style of play that you just play, and do not chase after experience and level. But the problem is that you have to tell this to ten people every day.

In fact, the story began with the fact that all the players were waiting for a year, or more, some interesting additions to their favorite game, and improvements. But in fact, instead of adding something new or improving the old, they decided to remove the old. What you liked, we decided to remove. And to do something new for the sake of experiment, which is actually visible, causes a lot of negative criticism, and for some reason has never told the community thoughts about this negative wave.It all boils down to the fact that the moderator of Roland is satisfied with the new system, and he is not averse to saying this to the “next” complaining player.

 

[meganoth]

Yeah I mean it comes down to preference ultimately, it sounds like. You have a certain playstyle and I have a certain playstyle which are different. So we have a fundamental disconnect. That said, there are some solutions to that problem. One would be bring back magazines to learn vehicles like how you had to find the minibike magazine back in A16. Which honestly makes sense anyway, there is no way you would magically know how to make a truck without an instruction manual of some sort or someone to train you. That said, I think it's somewhat unreasonable to expect players to get everything while purposefully avoiding some aspects of the game that are pretty important (IMO). I think it is silly to avoid wrenching cars as example. They give lots of good loot that you kinda need.

I'm not avoiding wrenching. If I need car parts, mechanicals, gasoline THAT is the time I'm wrenching cars. This is the "organically playing" Roland is talking about.

So I get your point, kinda, but it just makes the game lose a lot of depth to streamline it into one EXP bar.

I wonder how difficult it would be for TFP to just make an option to pick a skill system for leveling up so you could just pick if you want LBD or the A17 system. Perhaps this would be the simpler solution? Then everyone would be happy - just pick the system you like.

Sure, we have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see any depth in the LBD system, it is simply the more time you expend for one skill the better you are at it. That's a depth a monkey could grasp. But I'm sure you see a depth somewhere (maybe time management?) and I'm looking for the depth somewhere else, for example in the decision where to put my perk points into.

The "option" is there, ultimately one of us has to use a mod for his favourite mode. I'm pretty sure this won't be in the game as a simple option as the xml has to be changed in so many places. It would make it necessary for all other mods to specify which way this option has to be turned for the mod to work.

 

[Cirion]

I'm not avoiding wrenching. If I need car parts, mechanicals, gasoline THAT is the time I'm wrenching cars. This is the "organically playing" Roland is talking about.

Exactly, so it should be set up logically such that for the most part, you get all the skills at a reasonable pace while just "playing the game" (wrenching when you need stuff). It should be enough such that you don't get what you need on day 1 while using the wrench you got lucky and found, but it should also not be so much that it feels like you gotta grind for a week to get what you want. I mean, if you wanna learn how to build a truck on the first week then yeah, you'd have to grind it hardcore. But if you're willing to wait until like week 3 or 4, then it should be sufficient to just wrench here and there. If the concern is the grind becomes on the level that armor skill grind was, then yeah, I can understand, that was silly.

At the end of the day whether its A17 or A16, you still have to make some decisions on grinding. I still don't see how its more fun to grind zombies and mining for literally everything, but to each their own. The only difference is that instead of grinding with a wrench, you grind killing zombies or mining. That's it.

I mean in every RPG (just about at least) known to man, if you want something sooner, you have to grind. That's unchanged, whether we're talking A16, or A17, or even some other system. The only thing that is different is said method to grind.

But eh, I can see you won't share my thoughts, so we'll just have to see what TFP decides to go with ultimately I guess.

And sadly there is still no great LBD mod out yet for A17. I found a sort-of-LBD mod, but so far it only has gun skills and melee / mining. Better than nothing though. I wish I was better at modding or I'd do it myself. And then to be honest probably wouldn't even bother complaining anymore lol. I have no idea if its even possible to completely rewrite the current system to the old way though.

 

[Roland]

But the difference for example is that in 16 alpha I hardly thought of getting a level, yes, I was worried about steel and concrete, but it was tolerable and not noticeable.
In Alpha 15, when the restriction on steel or concrete was only in practical skills, then there just looked at it, and understood, it will be as it will, or I will spend my glasses on it manually, and very carefully did their work.

In the 17 alpha, cut interest in most of the cases in which they were engaged. People do not need lightness, they need freedom. When they feel that they just need to play, and then they can do concrete and steel, they are interested. But when they are told, you cannot do it because of the “unrealistic cause”, then they are annoying.

I understand that and I too dislike how the game draws your attention constantly to xp. I am dissatisfied with that for sure. I'm against level gates as well and believe that the player should have the freedom to progress how they wish without arbitrary restrictions. But the game focusing the player's attention on xp gain and restricting advancement can be done in either model. I'm not talking right now about the freedom of the player and whether the game restricts it too much (I agree with you that it does). I'm responding to this idea that learning by doing is better or worse than Central Pool. I say it is neither. Only the perception of the player based upon their own playstyle will determine if they like one better or not. I further have opined that the Efficiency Speedster type of player is always going to like LBD better because of the variety of grinding that can be done.

I understand that you can say that everything suits you, and you have such a style of play that you just play, and do not chase after experience and level. But the problem is that you have to tell this to ten people every day.

I hope I'm reaching more than just ten people a day... Seriously, I am not starting up these discussions. I simply respond with what I feel is a reasoned viewpoint (when purely opinion as in this thread) and in some cases a more informed viewpoint (as in others when people make incorrect speculations about development). If people would bring up something new I wouldn't repeat myself. But you can put me on your ignore list if you're tired of reading me.

In fact, the story began with the fact that all the players were waiting for a year, or more, some interesting additions to their favorite game, and improvements. But in fact, instead of adding something new or improving the old, they decided to remove the old. What you liked, we decided to remove.

Now see? You want to post something like the above and don't want me to respond because you want only your narrative to be the one to be read. I don't deny that many are disappointed with A17 and some of the design choices made by the developers but there are also many who see A17 as a complete improvement with tons of new content. In fact you know they added lots of new content and improvements because you don't want to be told to just revert and play A16 if that's what you like because then you wouldn't be able to experience all the new content and improvements.

And to do something new for the sake of experiment, which is actually visible, causes a lot of negative criticism, and for some reason has never told the community thoughts about this negative wave.It all boils down to the fact that the moderator of Roland is satisfied with the new system, and he is not averse to saying this to the “next” complaining player.

There is a negative wave of strongly opinionated players who hate the changes of A17. Acknowledged.

You wish the moderator Roland would please shut up and not challenge your views because you wish to have them taken as the unmitigated truth. Acknowledged.

If you want to post unchallenged I will kindly direct you to your own diary.

 

[meganoth]

Exactly, so it should be set up logically such that for the most part, you get all the skills at a reasonable pace while just "playing the game" (wrenching when you need stuff). It should be enough such that you don't get what you need on day 1 while using the wrench you got lucky and found, but it should also not be so much that it feels like you gotta grind for a week to get what you want.

Well, in A17 it works exactly that way, and that even if I did wrench less in a playthrough than some developer expected of me.

I didn't think of A16 as a horrible grind. Still there were games where I suddenly would have needed construction skill 20 and was much lower. And so was forced to do a wrenching grind that had nothing to do with my role as a survivor, the only reason was to grind xp.

I mean, if you wanna learn how to build a truck on the first week then yeah, you'd have to grind it hardcore. But if you're willing to wait until like week 3 or 4, then it should be sufficient to just wrench here and there. If the concern is the grind becomes on the level that armor skill grind was, then yeah, I can understand, that was silly.

At the end of the day whether its A17 or A16, you still have to make some decisions on grinding. I still don't see how its more fun to grind zombies and mining for literally everything, but to each their own. The only difference is that instead of grinding with a wrench, you grind killing zombies or mining. That's it.

No, by saying I would only do killing or mining instead of wrenching you absolutely misrepresent my stance. If I think I need a lot of mechanicals I might wrench all the cars I can find. Or realistically I might just see some cars and think it worthwhile or fun wrenching them. With A17 I have the freedom to do so. I have the freedom to harvest my garden instead of wrenching because my food gets low and still be able to build a minibike tomorrow.

As soon as you select activities with XP in mind instead of in-game reasons, you are doing the worst kind of grind and yes, I don't see the fun in that. I don't kill zombies for the purpose of getting xp, I don't wrench for the purpose of getting xp. I don't reduce my choice to killing zombies or mining. If a zombie walks up to me I probably need to shot it for protection, not because I get xp for it.

I mean in every RPG (just about at least) known to man, if you want something sooner, you have to grind. That's unchanged, whether we're talking A16, or A17, or even some other system. The only thing that is different is said method to grind.

Maybe that is the difference between us right here. I never think: "Hey, I still need a perk point for the minibike, lets shoot some zombies/wrench some cars/mine a few hours". My thought is "Hey, I need a perk point for the minibike, oh well, no minibike today. Back to the important stuff, like how is my horde base doing, do I have enough food, do I need to do a quest because my axe is too bad? What is the most pressing task?".

And sadly there is still no great LBD mod out yet for A17. I found a sort-of-LBD mod, but so far it only has gun skills and melee / mining. Better than nothing though. I wish I was better at modding or I'd do it myself. And then to be honest probably wouldn't even bother complaining anymore lol. I have no idea if its even possible to completely rewrite the current system to the old way though.

I would be interested in a mod if it implemented a new skills/perk system, independant of LBD or not. But I have zero interest in a verbatim copy of the A16 system. If I wanted that I would just load A16. Which I even might do again in a few years.