PC Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[unholyjoe]

A little poll to see which of the progression systems players liked most...

my choice isnt there... "none"

i miss the days where we didnt have number game within the game.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

my choice isnt there... "none"

i miss the days where we didnt have number game within the game.

 
I could dig it if the survival and crafting aspects were strong again and the tower defense aspect was the primary focus. Progression would simply be your real life skill playing the game, making the correct preparations, time management, and building decisions in between each horde.

 

[RipClaw]

i miss the days where we didnt have number game within the game.

Sounds to me a little bit like Subnautica where progress is about making better equipment and better means of transport.

 

[caatalyst]

I much preferred the Alpha 15/16 skill system.

Learn by doing feels a lot more organic and rewarding. As you go out and do things in the world you get better at them.

It's a shame how gameplay has been dumbed down so much since then. The game looks so much better now, combat feels great but the overall gameplay just feels meh.

Fortunately we do have Undead Legacy mod which has the best progression system that 7D2D has seen so far IMO. A mixture of learn by doing and schematics unlocking.

I'm holding off on playing A21 until the mod is updated.

 

[meganoth]

What I am saying is that if things were the other way around and we were currently discussing the removal of the system that attempts to decide for players what magazines they find, there would be no people complaining that the removal is causing a lack of togetherness clearing POIs (because people who want to do it together will still do it together. The removal would not force people apart, where the addition is attempting to force togetherness)

The magazines do not force people to clear POIs together.

The removal also would not force players into solo roles. (where the addition is attempting to force players out of them).

Nobody would complain that the removal took away their favorite hobby of having to bring back magazines in order to have a successful group. (First off, it would not be someone’s favorite hobby and secondly because the removal does not force people to stop helping, where the addition attempts to force players to help out group members who are trying to simply enjoy the game their preferred way).

I am reminded of the other thread where you brought up Learn-by-example and someone replied that it would be a fun addition and encourage teamplay. Now if that feature were in the game and were being removed, would players complain? I don't know. But even if they didn't, wouldn't having that feature still be "nice" and "fun" in a small way?

I can only say, we are used to bringing back the book series for our co-players and we got used to giving magazines to our co-players and find it another nice way to support and interact with our co-players.

Lets see, in A20 we found lots and lots of glass jars and empty cans and paper, paper and paper in our loot. I hated to find paper. Now you often find magazines instead of paper, and let me tell you: If they removed magazines and let me find paper instead, then yes, I would complain. 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I am reminded of the other thread where you brought up Learn-by-example and someone replied that it would be a fun addition and encourage teamplay. Now if that feature were in the game and were being removed, would players complain? I don't know. But even if they didn't, wouldn't having that feature still be "nice" and "fun" in a small way?

I can only say, we are used to bringing back the book series for our co-players and we got used to giving magazines to our co-players and find it another nice way to support and interact with our co-players.

Lets see, in A20 we found lots and lots of glass jars and empty cans and paper, paper and paper in our loot. I hated to find paper. Now you often find magazines instead of paper, and let me tell you: If they removed magazines and let me find paper instead, then yes, I would complain. 

Yes, I suppose I might find that feature of "learn by example" nice in a small way. It has the potential of balancing group dynamics a bit by encouraging the players who would normally go out looting to stick around and help the builder build, the miner mine, the hunter hunt, or the farmer farm once in a while. No matter what kind of player you are, you always have the potential to help someone else out who tags along, even if that builder, miner, hunter, or farmer tags along with the looters. 

I don't have a problem with the magazines, nor of sharing them. All that is fine in my opinion and I don't request their removal. The problems I see are how the chances of specific magazines (or any loot for that matter) are skewed by our perks which makes finding the ones to share with our base-dwellers much harder and it continues to get even harder as time goes on. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It's what I meant by "fake randomness" and "the system that attempts to decide for players what magazines they find." I find this feature to do more harm than good in relation to group dynamics. I also find it to do harm to the overall game experience. Gamestage and lootstage already have their hands on the steering wheel that drives the course of the gameplay... add more hands and you eventually lose control completely.

 

[meganoth]

Yes, I suppose I might find that feature of "learn by example" nice in a small way. It has the potential of balancing group dynamics a bit by encouraging the players who would normally go out looting to stick around and help the builder build, the miner mine, the hunter hunt, or the farmer farm once in a while. No matter what kind of player you are, you always have the potential to help someone else out who tags along, even if that builder, miner, hunter, or farmer tags along with the looters. 

I don't have a problem with the magazines, nor of sharing them. All that is fine in my opinion and I don't request their removal. The problems I see are how the chances of specific magazines (or any loot for that matter) are skewed by our perks which makes finding the ones to share with our base-dwellers much harder and it continues to get even harder as time goes on. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It's what I meant by "fake randomness" and "the system that attempts to decide for players what magazines they find." I find this feature to do more harm than good in relation to group dynamics. I also find it to do harm to the overall game experience. Gamestage and lootstage already have their hands on the steering wheel that drives the course of the gameplay... add more hands and you eventually lose control completely.

It is possible that I am already agreeing with you, see my post in another thread an hour ago: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/32424-a21-is-definately-better-but/?do=findComment&comment=527137

At the moment I expect TFP to release a patch with more balance fixes in the near future, i.e. it is their move now. Whatever it is, it will change things somewhat, maybe solve some problems, maybe create new .

 

[Riamus]

Could be get clarification on how the perk bonus to magazines works?  There seem to be 2 ideas about how it works right now and no clear idea which is correct.  And I think this is causing some of the issue.

1) Perks adjust the loot that is found by increasing the percentage of one magazine over others.  So if you have 3 magazines in a container and they would normally be Forge Ahead, Southern Farming, and Shotgun Messiah, if you had perked into Miner 69'er, one of those would have a chance to get changed to Tools Digest (I think that's the Miner 69'er magazine).  This reduces the chance of finding other magazines because the magazines are being changed into what you perk into.

2) Perks adjust the loot by adding a chance of finding an additional magazine on top of what would normally be there.  So if you had those same 3 magazines in a container and you perked into Miner 69'er, you would have a chance to get those same magazines PLUS a Tools Digest magazine.

If it's the first option, then this is definitely going to cause issues for finding magazines you aren't perked into.  If you are perked into 3 magazines and the loot contains 3 magazines, then you have a chance of getting the 3 you perked into and nothing else.  If you're perked into 4 or 5 magazines, then that means the chance of finding anything else will be even lower.

On the other hand, if it's the second option, then you will always get the same loot but just have a chance to get an extra magazine on top of that from your perk bonus.  This wouldn't reduce the chance of you from getting magazines for stuff you don't perk into.

So if it's the first, I think we do have a problem in the design.

 

[CapnCookie]

Could be get clarification on how the perk bonus to magazines works?  There seem to be 2 ideas about how it works right now and no clear idea which is correct.  And I think this is causing some of the issue.

I actually have a comment on a Steam thread that clarifies this specifically, as I wanted to understand some of the lines found in the progression xml and how it works within the game. It can be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/3810656323976142561/

 

[Riamus]

I actually have a comment on a Steam thread that clarifies this specifically, as I wanted to understand some of the lines found in the progression xml and how it works within the game. It can be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/3810656323976142561/

I assume you're Cookie on there?  What you posted adds a third option that is almost the same as the first in my post.  Instead of a chance to replace an existing magazine directly, you are increasing the number of chances and total chances for each loot.  This also will remove a magazine you would have gotten if the bonus takes effect and so has the same effect as what I mentioned.

I'll point out that your math is a bit off in the 200%, 400%, 600% that you were mentioning.  That's not quite correct.  Your number of chances in the pool is increased but so is your total pool size.  So 6/10 vs 1/5 is 6x the chances but because the pool also increases, you are only increasing by 300% for probability, which bears out in your results... 153 is roughly 3x 50.

This example does seem to suggest replacing what you would have gotten and therefore reducing chances of getting magazines you aren't perked into.  If that really is the case, then that's a bad thing.  The bonus should be a chance of getting 1 extra magazine of something you are perked into.  Example:  I loot a container and get 3 magazines.  If I had no perk bonus or a lot of perk bonuses, I'd always get those same 3 magazines from that same roll of the dice.  But if I do have perk bonuses, then it will roll a separate time and determine if I get one extra magazine from those perks.  In other words, that second roll would be a separate loot table - X% chance per loot level per perk bonus, so let's say I have 1 bonus for cooking and 3 bonus for forge ahead.  This new roll will have 3 chances of forge ahead, 1 of cooking, and X of nothing.  If it's 2% per perk point, then you'd have 6% of forge ahead, 2% of cooking, and 92% of nothing.  If you succeed in this roll, then you get that magazine in addition to the original 3 you would have gotten without a perk bonus.  This, I think, would give a better outcome so you aren't missing out on magazines you don't perk into because of your perked magazines replacing everything else.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

This, I think, would give a better outcome so you aren't missing out on magazines you don't perk into because of your perked magazines replacing everything else.

 
Agreed.
 

At the moment I expect TFP to release a patch with more balance fixes in the near future, i.e. it is their move now. Whatever it is, it will change things somewhat, maybe solve some problems, maybe create new .

No doubt. 
I do hope that in the end whatever becomes the final version of all of this accounts for exactly what you said in that post: "there are many and to only be selected because you want the loot bonus should not be the only reason to select a perk." I do play MP, but its very rare in comparison to solo, so I don't really have much emotion tied into the issues that this might have brought to the group dynamic. As a solo player though, I tend to try to become a jack of all trades (or as many I can) even if it means being a master of none. So, if the chosen system starts to push me too much into a master of a single trade, I'm going to have big problems with it.

 

[CapnCookie]

I assume you're Cookie on there?  What you posted adds a third option that is almost the same as the first in my post.  Instead of a chance to replace an existing magazine directly, you are increasing the number of chances and total chances for each loot.  This also will remove a magazine you would have gotten if the bonus takes effect and so has the same effect as what I mentioned.

I'll point out that your math is a bit off in the 200%, 400%, 600% that you were mentioning.  That's not quite correct.  Your number of chances in the pool is increased but so is your total pool size.  So 6/10 vs 1/5 is 6x the chances but because the pool also increases, you are only increasing by 300% for probability, which bears out in your results... 153 is roughly 3x 50.

This example does seem to suggest replacing what you would have gotten and therefore reducing chances of getting magazines you aren't perked into.  If that really is the case, then that's a bad thing.  The bonus should be a chance of getting 1 extra magazine of something you are perked into.  Example:  I loot a container and get 3 magazines.  If I had no perk bonus or a lot of perk bonuses, I'd always get those same 3 magazines from that same roll of the dice.  But if I do have perk bonuses, then it will roll a separate time and determine if I get one extra magazine from those perks.  In other words, that second roll would be a separate loot table - X% chance per loot level per perk bonus, so let's say I have 1 bonus for cooking and 3 bonus for forge ahead.  This new roll will have 3 chances of forge ahead, 1 of cooking, and X of nothing.  If it's 2% per perk point, then you'd have 6% of forge ahead, 2% of cooking, and 92% of nothing.  If you succeed in this roll, then you get that magazine in addition to the original 3 you would have gotten without a perk bonus.  This, I think, would give a better outcome so you aren't missing out on magazines you don't perk into because of your perked magazines replacing everything else.

I want to reply to the fullness of your comment, so I will reply according to the paragraphs you have. 

1) You are correct in that it does not have the potential to replace existing magazines within the loot group found within the xml. All it does is add a percentage modifier to the already existing loot probabilities. If each magazine had a "high" probability (meaning a value of 0.75, indicated at the top of the loot xml), then that means 5 magazines have a 0.75/3.75 chance, or 1/5. Adding a percentage modifier to that doesn't numerically decrease the direct probability of the other magazines, as they're still going to be at a rate of 0.75 each. That number is now just lower compared to the probability of the other magazine that you've invested perk points into for a perc increase.

2) You are also correct in that my math is a little off, just not in the way you think. After examining it, I forgot that the operation used in the progression xml is perc_added, meaning it's adding 200% per level, not changing it TO that percentage per level. So for my example specifically (crates with 5 magazines, all with an equal probability), the chance for bows would have gone from 1/5 at no points, 3/7 for 1 point, 5/9 at 2 points, 7/11 for 3 points, 9/13 for 4 points, and 11/15 for 5 points. The skill isn't dictating how many more more books you'll obtain, it's simply adding a percentage modifier to your chance at finding them within a given loot pool. Just because I have 3 points and an added 600% modifier to that mag on the probability table doesn't necessarily mean I'll find 6x of that book compared to when I was at 0 points. That would mean I would've needed to find 300 books in only 250 crates, but each crate could only produce 1 book in my example. Does that make sense?

3) It certainly adds trouble for loot containers that contain multiple magazines that are connected to skills you're perked into. In my example, if I had 2 points in both archery AND blades (a 400% bonus to each probability), then the chances for rolling either of those is 5/13. Then the others 3 books only have a 1/13 chance. So out of 250 crates I would have gotten roughly 96 bow mags, 96 blade mags, and then only 19-20 each of the other 3 mags. Even though the added probability bonus for the archery and blades is 400%, you'll still only yield less than double of each from if you'd looted them with no points in either associated skill. If they were to implement your solution, then they would need to add a dedicated loot group containing the magazines to every loot container in the game within the loot xml. It would start at 0% for all, and then under the progression of each skill, they would need to add a SEPARATE bonus that somehow only tags that specific loot group. I'm not sure if that would be possible, but then again I really only know how to read the xml and edit what's already there. I can't add to it. 

 

[Riamus]

I want to reply to the fullness of your comment, so I will reply according to the paragraphs you have. 

1) You are correct in that it does not have the potential to replace existing magazines within the loot group found within the xml. All it does is add a percentage modifier to the already existing loot probabilities. If each magazine had a "high" probability (meaning a value of 0.75, indicated at the top of the loot xml), then that means 5 magazines have a 0.75/3.75 chance, or 1/5. Adding a percentage modifier to that doesn't numerically decrease the direct probability of the other magazines, as they're still going to be at a rate of 0.75 each. That number is now just lower compared to the probability of the other magazine that you've invested perk points into for a perc increase.

2) You are also correct in that my math is a little off, just not in the way you think. After examining it, I forgot that the operation used in the progression xml is perc_added, meaning it's adding 200% per level, not changing it TO that percentage per level. So for my example specifically (crates with 5 magazines, all with an equal probability), the chance for bows would have gone from 1/5 at no points, 3/7 for 1 point, 5/9 at 2 points, 7/11 for 3 points, 9/13 for 4 points, and 11/15 for 5 points. The skill isn't dictating how many more more books you'll obtain, it's simply adding a percentage modifier to your chance at finding them within a given loot pool. Just because I have 3 points and an added 600% modifier to that mag on the probability table doesn't necessarily mean I'll find 6x of that book compared to when I was at 0 points. That would mean I would've needed to find 300 books in only 250 crates, but each crate could only produce 1 book in my example. Does that make sense?

3) It certainly adds trouble for loot containers that contain multiple magazines that are connected to skills you're perked into. In my example, if I had 2 points in both archery AND blades (a 400% bonus to each probability), then the chances for rolling either of those is 5/13. Then the others 3 books only have a 1/13 chance. So out of 250 crates I would have gotten roughly 96 bow mags, 96 blade mags, and then only 19-20 each of the other 3 mags. Even though the added probability bonus for the archery and blades is 400%, you'll still only yield less than double of each from if you'd looted them with no points in either associated skill. If they were to implement your solution, then they would need to add a dedicated loot group containing the magazines to every loot container in the game within the loot xml. It would start at 0% for all, and then under the progression of each skill, they would need to add a SEPARATE bonus that somehow only tags that specific loot group. I'm not sure if that would be possible, but then again I really only know how to read the xml and edit what's already there. I can't add to it. 

I have to be brief as I'm on a phone right now and it's hard to type much this way....

I think you missed what I meant about chance versus probability.  Even with your updated numbers, let's look at 1/5 versus 3/7 for adding one point.  You tripled your chance - from 1 to 3.  You now have 3 chances out of the loot pool to obtain that magazine.  Your probability went from 1/5 (20%) to 3/7 (about 43%), which is just over double.  I hope that makes sense.  I'll point out that I'm using chance here partially wrong myself for this example.  Chance is really probability as well.  I'm really talking about number of chances.  If the pool was very high, like in a lottery, then you could basically double your probability of winning by doubling the tickets you buy because it won't change to size of the loot pool significantly.  Even so, you are really getting something like 1.9999998x increase by buying twice as many tickets.  But with small numbers, it is a big difference.  This assumes the lottery has all unique entries and only one winner.  I just chose the lottery to give an idea of a large pool.

As far as my thought on the bonus being in addition to normal loot instead of replacing normal loot, I think this can be done without any modification of loot tables.  Example: if the loot table has only 3 different magazines in it, the bonus will take those 3 into a temporary table and use your perks to determine how much chance to roll for each of them.  If the magazines were forge ahead, cooking, and farming and you perked 3 points into forge ahead, 1 into cooking and 0 into farming and if the bonus for each perk point was 2%, you would then roll with the following chances: 6% forge ahead, 2% cooking, 0% farming, 92% nothing.  No change needed for the loot table and a pretty easy calculation.

 

[CapnCookie]

I have to be brief as I'm on a phone right now and it's hard to type much this way....

I think you missed what I meant about chance versus probability.  Even with your updated numbers, let's look at 1/5 versus 3/7 for adding one point.  You tripled your chance - from 1 to 3.  You now have 3 chances out of the loot pool to obtain that magazine.  Your probability went from 1/5 (20%) to 3/7 (about 43%), which is just over double.  I hope that makes sense.  I'll point out that I'm using chance here partially wrong myself for this example.  Chance is really probability as well.  I'm really talking about number of chances.  

As far as my thought on the bonus being in addition to normal loot instead of replacing normal loot, I think this can be done without any modification of loot tables.  Example: if the loot table has only 3 different magazines in it, the bonus will take those 3 into a temporary table and use your perks to determine how much chance to roll for each of them.  If the magazines were forge ahead, cooking, and farming and you perked 3 points into forge ahead, 1 into cooking and 0 into farming and if the bonus for each perk point was 2%, you would then roll with the following chances: 6% forge ahead, 2% cooking, 0% farming, 92% nothing.  No change needed for the loot table and a pretty easy calculation.

1) Ah, I think I did miss that. Yes, the chance is increased, but the overall probability within the scope of a given loot table is determined by how many other items are within that loot table and their numerical chance values. The two are related within this context, but the differentiation is in added percentage vs. overall probability. 

2) The problem I'm seeing is that what you're calling for requires a dynamic table entry determined by what perks you've invested in and what magazines are available within the container. The XML's are static, though. The lines written within them can't change unless they're rewritten manually, even if they're affected by outside sources like the passive effects in the progression xml. So every single loot table containing magazines would need to redirect to dedicated loot group containing the related magazines, and that specific loot group would need to somehow pull the passive effect listed in the progression xml (add 2% percentage bonus per level in your example) without it interfering with the base values of the normal loot groups containing magazines. Again, I'm not sure if that's possible. 

 

[Riamus]

1) Ah, I think I did miss that. Yes, the chance is increased, but the overall probability within the scope of a given loot table is determined by how many other items are within that loot table and their numerical chance values. The two are related within this context, but the differentiation is in added percentage vs. overall probability. 

2) The problem I'm seeing is that what you're calling for requires a dynamic table entry determined by what perks you've invested in and what magazines are available within the container. The XML's are static, though. The lines written within them can't change unless they're rewritten manually, even if they're affected by outside sources like the passive effects in the progression xml. So every single loot table containing magazines would need to redirect to dedicated loot group containing the related magazines, and that specific loot group would need to somehow pull the passive effect listed in the progression xml (add 2% percentage bonus per level in your example) without it interfering with the base values of the normal loot groups containing magazines. Again, I'm not sure if that's possible. 

2) It is just a temporary table created in memory at the time it is needed and released after it is used.  It is actually easy to create such a table in a programming language.  Not something you could do in as a mod that doesn't incorporate C#, I don't think.  But easy to accomplish from the dev side.  Nothing at all has to be done to the XML other than read it.

 

[CapnCookie]

2) It is just a temporary table created in memory at the time it is needed and released after it is used.  It is actually easy to create such a table in a programming language.  Not something you could do in as a mod that doesn't incorporate C#, I don't think.  But easy to accomplish from the dev side.  Nothing at all has to be done to the XML other than read it.

Ah, see this is where ya lose me lol. I'm very much not versed in coding. Hell I only began reading into the XML's this last week to look at the funky stuff going on with the loot tables. So this is where you'd be much more knowledgeable than I would be in how to make a certain interaction occur.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Personally, while I voted for "Learn by Doing", ideally I think a combination of Learn by Doing and Learn by Reading would be the more "realistic" way of increasing skills.

You make things, you do things, you learn from that experience.  You read books or magazines with "How to..." tips gives you more knowledge and things to try.

I slaughtered a bunch of zombies!  Now I know how to make cars!  *NOT*!

 

[Kazgrel]

Irony is I could see a fusion of LBD and the current LBR being more or less what Darkness Falls had (back when I last played it during A19).  Will be curious to see how Khaine handles it when DF becomes A21 compatible.

Seeing that I didn't play the game until A17 (ie after LBD was removed from vanilla), I'd have to say I like the current LBR system over A17-20's learning via perks ie I killed a bunch of zeds and now I'm smart enough to build a truck.

 

[Renathras]

Good post.

For my part, been playing for a long time (since 2014 or so? Alpha 8-10, somewhere in there), but pretty casually with friends. I'm not a hardcore streamer, I don't do "challenges", I don't make massive kill factories, I don't have every POI memorized, I don't speedrun, I haven't mathed the optimal way to do everything, etc.

But for a casual player, I've also been around long enough I HAVE seen all the iterations.

Here are my issues:

1) RNG is terrible and there's no RNG protection in the current system.

2) Learn by Doing is far more intuitive.

3) A hybrid system can easily be developed that does both (suggestion below).

4) It STILL didn't fix the issue of some skill trees being "must have" while others are not, and some builds not having beneficial stuff in them. In fact, by moving Lockpicking to Intellect, it actually made it WORSE (otherwise, Perception would be a second viable path to getting Forge books). And several of the skill trees are still "this one is for fighting" or "this one is for crafting" despite all that, including must-have skills across branches.

5) It seems it's possible to newb-trap yourself OUT of skill books. By focusing too heavily on something early, it seems you get EVEN LESS of books from other things. This makes the already bad RNG even worse, if that was possible...

.

1) There's no RNG protection. I have 2-3 points in Handguns in one game and 1 point in Master Chef and no points in Sledgehammers. Would you be shocked to hear my Pistol skill is only a point or two above my Sledgehammer skill, something I have nothing in, and my cooking is in the 40s somewhere while I haven't unlocked the Handgun quality 1 yet? And don't get me started on how many things I had to loot to get enough Forge books. I literally got a forge as a quest reward BEFORE I unlocked the ability to make one. That's absurd, and not because the quest gave me one. Supposedly taking skill points increases the chance of things...but RNG is still RNG and you can get shafted. Moreover, I tend to find lots of books for stuff I have no points at all in, while things I'm specifically gunning for (Grease Monkey) I'm still getting more books just BUYING THEM outright from Traders and waiting for their resetocks since I'm not finding them anywhere.

Note that this is a problem NEITHER Learn by Doing NOR Learn by Perks have. Both systems have a sort of RNG protection since you can just grind out crafting or level (respectively) and you're guaranteed to get at least some of the stuff you want relatively quickly. The Traders are a semi-fix, but are still RNG.

.

2) Learn by Doing is the most intuitive system. I make things of a type of thing, I get better at making those types of things. It's logical, it's rational, and I know what to do if I want to get better at certain things. While I recognize the "make 500 Stone Axes, now you can instantly make a level 5 Steel Axe" is a problem (see (3) below), there are better ways to address that. Moreover, as I said in (1), Learn by Doing's big advantage is that I can target skill gains into areas by focusing. There's no abject reliance on RNG to access even basic tools, weapons, and armors.

.

3) The best system would PROBABLY be a hybrid approach. Imagine, if you will... <plays 80s/90s "going into imagination/flashback" sound que>

...any number of systems, honestly.

a) Learn (the BASICS) by Doing - In this system, you get skill-ups by crafting, but only to a certain point. For example, level 15 in the 100 point categories. This is sufficient to, for example, learn the Pipe Pistol to quality 5 + the basic Handgun to quality 2 or 3. Learn the Dew Collector, Forge, and maybe Workbench (or be close to it). Learn the Bicycle. First Aid Bandages, and how to make basic cooking essentials like Grilled Meat, Cornbread, and Goldenrod Tea. All things that are, to me, good to RNG proof. Since this is a hybrid system, the current skill books would still exist, and be necessary for skills 16 and above, and could be used at lower level to get a "free" skill-up in a hurry.

b) Learn by Doing At-Level Crafts - For this system, think of something like old WoW leveling (no idea what they do now since I haven't played it in ages, but I mean the Vanilla through Mists of Pandera  era). The way it works is simple. At a level, you unlock a new item. When you do, it's orange. Orange means you are guaranteed to skill up crafting it. After a few points, though, it downgrades to yellow. Yellow has around a 50/50 shot to gain a skill up. After a few more, it downgrades to green. Green has a 10-30% chance (forget which, but basically "fairly low") to grant a skill up. Finally, you get gray. Gray means no more skill ups from crafting that item. So to use an example from 7 Days, suppose level 1 in Handguns (like now) unlocks the Pipe Pistol. For the first two crafts, you are guaranteed a skill (getting you to 3 and the quality 2 version). Now it's yellow, meaning a good, but not perfect chance, to gain a skill-up from crafting it. Maybe this goes from 4-7 or so (getting you up to quality 4). Then it goes green. So you have about a 1/10 to 1/3 chance of getting a skill up. Not impossible, but to get you to skill 11 and the Handgun would take 12-40 crafts. Then, at 11 when you unlock the second tier of the weapon, the quality 1 9mm Handgun (Beretta M9?), the Pipe Pistol goes gray. You will no longer gain skill-ups from it, and must craft the M9 to progress. Each tier would work with this same cycle, preventing someone from just crafting 100 Pipe Pistols day 1 and being able to make quality 5 Desert Vultures. Again, as in (a), you could have books to augment this, which could also help once you were in the "green" stage of crafting to smooth over those lower chance levels.

There are probably a lot of OTHER ways to deal with it, but I think (a) keeps the spirit of the current system while giving basic RNG protection to players, while (b) offers a different take that has skill books as still valuable (having to craft up to 40 of an item to get those last few levels of that tier could become VERY expensive), while still allowing players to choose how they play - loot or craft or both - to get to the end goal. In games, I generally believe, to a point, "choice is good". Letting people choose how they engage with the content is a huge factor into player enjoyment and replayability.

.

4) Somehow, the system DIDN'T fix one of the big complaints - that you needed to spec into Intellect to do anything. It just made it worse, since now you have to spec into Intellect and STILL may not get the books you need ANYway! And the worst part is, they even decided to make Lockpicking and Advanced Engineering give you the books...then moved Lockpicking from Perception into Intellect! Had they left it with Perception, it would give you two paths, instead of one, to increased Forging book drops. It didn't fix the problem that you still need to go Strength for cooking, mining, and woodcutting, Perception for salvageing and (why is this a skill?) specifically doing Buried Treasure missions (and later game for Lucky Looter, but because LL is percent based and doesn't have a flat addition, it's far less useful early on), Fortitude for farming and hunting, Agility gives a big fat NOTHING that isn't straight combat (despite having 2 or even 3 of the most common use early game weapons, Bows, Handguns, and debatably Knives), and Intellect is massive with all of forging/workbench/water collection (now SUPER important), medicine, vehicles, mission rewards, bartering, the only party buff in the game via leadership (and arguably medic), and now ALSO lockpicking, as if it didn't have enough already.

Could we not take some of the stuff from Intellect and spread it out? I get that it's only book chance now, but that's pretty significant unless you have loot turned up super high. It'd also be nice to have the playstyles mixed a bit more. Like we have a Light Armor (Agility) and Heavy Armor (Fortitude), but where's the armorless Monk that gains armor class by leveling (D&D-esque)? Could have Heavy Armor with Strength to make it the tank and have a perk that gives you 80-90% the armor class of tier 1-2-3-4 equipment per skill in the tier, provided you are wearing NO armor to give players another option for builds if they wanted to (I'd personally stick it in Fortitude since it'd go so well with Brawler, but Perception could also be a good choice).

I dunno, I just feel like so many opportunities were passed up with this new system, and while IN THEORY not making it required to put points into the various skill trees, it still makes them somewhat mandatory to get effective drop rates, but this just makes the problem worse since we have "Learn by Perk, now with an added layer of RNG so you can't even guarantee or target things you really want!"

.

5) I'm not sure on the backend, but I still don't find mailboxes with more than 3 items. If I have maxed out every skill in the game, shouldn't that mailbox be full of items, throwing all kinds of magazines my way?

I think this is an issue with the loot tables, but I feel like the added drop percent should be for ADDITIONAL items, not replacing the base spawn items from the loot container in question. Otherwise, you run into the problem of "I put 5 points in knives and now I don't ever get ANY other book, despite having 1-2 points in those other things!", which is obviously a problem!

.

All in all, I understand what it's going for, but I think it misses the mark. I think in future iterations, it should use something like (3a) and shift into that kind of hybrid model to address the shortcomings of both systems.

 

[Renathras]

Oh, as an addendum:

I DO like the progression through the trees. I like how it's not just spend a point and unlock a tier. I like unlocking, for example, Pipe Pistol, working through the quality levels, then M9, those levels, then .44 mag, those levels, etc. I think that's cool.

I also REALLY like the Pipe Pistol. Like the almost steampunk feel and look of the thing is fantastic. I kinda wish there was a mod for the .44 to make it have the Pipe Pistol's appearance. I also like that the devs have TRIED to address the "bad RNG gives you no guns" problem by letting you craft something day one. The downside is, other than maybe the Pile Pistol, the other pipe weapons...suck (okay, maybe not the AR...) (And don't look as cool, no offense to the art team, they're just...different?). The Pipe Shotgun is a smidge better than the old Blunderbuss, but not a lot and takes forever and a day to reload its single shot. Sure, the Double Barrel isn't great, but reloads in a jiffy. The Pipe Rifle might be a decent semi-sniper rifle, but it reloads WAAAAY too slow, even for a "don't let them near you" weapon, making it more or less just useful for early game hunting. Which is fine, but that's pretty limiting. Haven't messed with the Pipe AR yet, but it feels like it's just a much more expensive (in ammo) Pipe Shotgun, though it's at least serviceable, I guess?

Decent quality Pipe Pistols are okay, and since you can no longer craft any ammo without a Workbench (which is 15 or so levels into THAT skill), it's the only one I tend to have any decent amount of ammo in. Even if I need to carry two to hot swap in some situations due to the reload being a bit sluggish, even one gets you several good shots.

I also think that ammo crafting needs to be SERIOUSLY reconsidered. At the very least, Shotgun shells should be craftable without a workbench - country boys reload the things all the time. Ideally 9mm, too. Maybe do the Campfire vs Chemistry Station where it costs more materials (spill/waste some Gunpowder in the crafting without a Workbench to give you a good working surface), but something. And likewise, we should be able to make the second weapon tier (M9, Double Barrel, AK-47, Robotic Sledge, and Hunting Rifle) without needing a Workbench. You can make Wooden Bows without one (and Iron Arrows, too!), and this should extend to the other weapons. Workbench for AP and specialty ammo, Tier 3 and above weapons; those things make sense. Workbench making it cheaper to make ammo, that makes sense, too.

But I think the low end needs some work still (while I DO recognize the devs trying to make it a bit better), and I think the game needs some RNG protection for low end players. If those two things can be shored up - which my suggestions in both these posts lean to - I think that would help out.